Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[fhansen]

Well, it’s mainly the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:32:34, quoted in Heb 8 &10, that I’m thinking of here.

 

[TULIPed]

The error comes in when those same Protestants DENY the need for this transformation in a person’s justification.

And you have (unwittingly?) interiorized this truncated mini gospel.

That is WHY when I ask you to just verbalize this aspect of Christ and the NECESSITY of it, you can’t do it.

Again, we’ll just have to agree to disagree upon this (as folks like us have for, oh - almost 600 years I guess).

Thankfully, I think we agree upon much more than we disagree on, and I hope, with God’s help, we continue to work this out.

 

[lanman87]

What is the Evangelical/Protestant answer? Is there only one?

Part one…

I don’t know if there is only one Evangelical/Protestant answer but I can tell you what I’ve been taught and I have attended the largest non-Catholic denomination in the United States for most of my life.

Basically, Paul was making sure everyone was in agreement of how Justification was attained by both the Jews and the Greeks apart from Christ. And he was correcting the Jews who believe they were Justified simply because they are Jews. And that both the Jews and Gentiles (before the Gospel was delivered) would be judged according to their works (without Christ mediating for them). And that for both Jews and Gentiles the only way to be Justified is to be doers of the law, either Mosaic and natural/moral law.

Verse 12 and 13 are important 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

In Romans 3: 20 he says, For by works of the law (Mosaic or Moral) no human being (Jew or Gentile) will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

This would be a staggering sentence to the Jew who thinks they are right with God because they practice the Mosaic Law and the the Gentile who thinks they will be right with God because they are a good and moral person. It shatters the, “I do more good than bad so I’m alright with God” thinking that is prevalent in society.

Then Romans 3:21 Paul delivers the good news. He starts with “But now”. This indicates a change. Roman 3:20 is how it was before the Gospel, before the Messiah came, before we had the mediator in Christ.

But now things are different. Starting in Romans 3:21 Paul explains how things are different. We are no longer Justified by keeping the law (Jewish or Moral) but are now Justified by faith and it is not just the Jews that are justified by faith but the gentiles are also justified by faith…

 

[lanman87]

What is the Evangelical/Protestant answer?

Part 2

Romans 2 and 3 in a nutshell says that the only hope any of you have is to perfectly keep the Mosaic Law and or do naturally what the Mosaic law demands.

But because we are all sinners and don’t perfectly keep the Mosaic Law (or do naturally what the law demands)… then none of us will be justified in His sight.

But Now

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses[i] and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Roman 3:23-16 NLT

 

[fhansen]

Again, we’ll just have to agree to disagree upon this (as folks like us have for, oh - almost 600 years I guess).

Yes, it was pretty much settled before that.

But wouldn’t it be pretty much true to say that, if we cannot be saved by a faith that excludes works then both, faith and works, are apparently required?

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

This would be a staggering sentence to the Jew who thinks they are right with God because they practice the Mosaic Law and the the Gentile who thinks they will be right with God because they are a good and moral person. It shatters the, “I do more good than bad so I’m alright with God” thinking that is prevalent in society.

But taken by itself, it ignores the “we” aspect with Jesus Christ.

That dimension is WHY you can bear fruit that will last. That is WHY in some sense you CAN (and must according to your state in life or as Jesus says, “each according to his ability” in Matthew 25:15 above) and NEED to merit.

 

[lanman87]

But taken by itself, it ignore the “we” aspect with Jesus Christ.

That is exactly the point. He was telling them you can’t justify yourself no matter how good you are or how much effort you put into following the Mosaic law. Because you are still a sinner and all the law really does is show you the standard that you aren’t meeting.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

put into following the Mosaic law.

You did not have Calvary and the life of Christ in you in the same way as Christianity with the Mosaic Law.

You are missing part of the point.

 

[De_Maria]

Cathoholic:

The problem stems from MERELY imputed righteousness with a Protestant DENIAL of the NEED for Christ’s transformative power.

I’ll take your word that there are Protestants out there who deny the need for Christ’s transformative power in their lives. I personally have yet to meet one. I have met many, many Protestants (holding up my hand and waving violently) and Catholics however who will testify that they’d be dead without Him.

I’ve heard the terminology “forensic” justification bandied about in many discussions with Protestants. And the words, “covered over”.

That doesn’t sound “transformative” to me. How does one reconcile those ideas with the idea of being “born again” and “regenerated”?

I’m assuming you believe in forensic justification. If you don’t, feel free to ignore the questions.

 

[De_Maria]

That was very good and thorough, thanks. I hope you’ll want to discuss this. Actually, Catholic Teaching is in agreement with 99% of this. But the disagreements, though few, are major.

As Luther is alleged to have said, “If we’re wrong on justification, the reformation falls.”

Part one…

I don’t know if there is only one Evangelical/Protestant answer but I can tell you what I’ve been taught and I have attended the largest non-Catholic denomination in the United States for most of my life.

Basically, Paul was making sure everyone was in agreement of how Justification was attained by both the Jews and the Greeks apart from Christ.

Agreed. Although, he was also including the Jew and Gentile converts to the faith. I’ll point that out, later.

And he was correcting the Jews who believe they were Justified simply because they are Jews…

Notice that he is speaking in the present tense. He is speaking about the Jew and Gentile converts, as well.

Verse 12 and 13 are important 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Again, notice the present tense.

In Romans 3: 20 he says, For by works of the law (Mosaic or Moral) no human being (Jew or Gentile) will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

This is absolutely correct and fits perfectly into the Sacramental system. When we go to Confession, we are encouraged to read the Ten Commandments and repent of any offenses we have committed against them. Through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

This … shatters the, “I do more good than bad so I’m alright with God” thinking that is prevalent in society.

Actually it doesn’t, if you read the last verse in this chapter.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

In other words, he’s saying, we have a new system. But you don’t chuck the old system. First you have to fulfill or meet these requirements. “Doers of the Law will be justified”.

Then Romans 3:21 Paul delivers the good news. He starts with “But now”. This indicates a change. Roman 3:20 is how it was before the Gospel, before the Messiah came, before we had the mediator in Christ.

Agreed.

But now things are different. Starting in Romans 3:21 Paul explains how things are different. We are no longer Justified by keeping the law (Jewish or Moral) but are now Justified by faith and it is not just the Jews that are justified by faith but the gentiles are also justified by faith…

YES. In the Sacraments. Notice that you said, it’s not just the Jews that are justified by faith. In other words, the Jewish converts thought they were somehow better than the Gentiles because of their previous Jewish faith. But now, all are justified by faith.

 

[De_Maria]

Romans 2 and 3 in a nutshell says that the only hope any of you have is to perfectly keep the Mosaic Law and or do naturally what the Mosaic law demands.

Of course, we view that differently. The proof is in Heb 11. Did any of them keep the Mosaic Law perfectly. They are all named and listed there, the heroes of the Old Testament. Name one that kept the Law perfectly.

In summary, we believe that Rom 2 and 3 says, "Look, I know you used to be Jews. But that doesn’t mean that you understand the faith of Christ better than the Gentiles. You have come to believe that you are better than others because you have the Law. But the written Law is of no importance. It is what you do with it. God is no respecter of persons. If you keep the Law, you will be justified. That still stands true today. The Gentiles have always had the same system. But the law is written in their hearts.

But because we are all sinners and don’t perfectly keep the Mosaic Law (or do naturally what the law demands)… then none of us will be justified in His sight.

But Now

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses[i] and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Yes, but, to understand what he’s saying, you need to go to the Parable of the Labourers (Matt 20:1-16) and to Heb 12:24

Basically, what he’s saying is that every Sacrament is like a pre-judgment event, where we are judged by God and if found worthy, justified (i.e. washed of our sins.)

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Roman 3:23-16 NLT

Except that God did punish many who sinned in past times. The only ones that He saved were those who attempted to keep the Mosaic Law. None of them kept it perfectly. Yet they were saved by Christ’s death upon the Cross. But we don’t have to die to be saved. We can be saved by coming to Christ and submitting to the Sacraments.

Anyway, that’s where we differ. Thanks for your explanation. It was very good.

 

[SyCarl]

I am not a Calvinist but I do not think that we have to deny that we are transformed. We just don’t include it under justification. The name I have seen it called the most is regeneration. From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Chapter 9

“4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.”

and:

Chapter 10

“1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.”

Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to us because we are still not perfect and so any righteousness we have doesn’t meet God’s standard which is perfection.

We are called to do good works as part of sanctification.

1. They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

1. This sanctification is throughout in the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh.

The works we do, even if they could be perfect, merit nothing since we already owe God anything and everything we do.

Works are evidence and a result of our regeneration and if we don’t do them our faith would not be true faith.

I believe we can lose salvation if we lose faith but can regain it if our faith is renewed.

 

[TULIPed]

I am not a Calvinist but I do not think that we have to deny that we are transformed.

Me neither. (About the transformation part)

 

[Justin_Mary]

Except that God did punish many who sinned in past times. The only ones that He saved were those who attempted to keep the Mosaic Law. None of them kept it perfectly. Yet they were saved by Christ’s death upon the Cross. But we don’t have to die to be saved. We can be saved by coming to Christ and submitting to the Sacraments.

Anyway, that’s where we differ. Thanks for your explanation. It was very good.

I think it’s important that we take this statement & go back to something you said earlier. The purpose of the law is to identify sin. So it’s not really about perfectly keeping the law, but recognizing we fell short & coming to God with a contrite heart. A contrite heart he will not spurn.

God didn’t save the ones who tried to keep the law. He saved the ones who were sorry they fell short.

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed.

You just got done quoting a confession that denied the transformative power of Christ.

Here it is.

“Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them . . .

The bold was yours by the way.

Now you seem to be affirming the transformative power of Christ.

Here it is.

@SyCarl stated . . .

I am not a Calvinist but I do not think that we have to deny that we are transformed.

You replied . . .

Me neither. (About the transformation part)

.

Does Christ transform or not transform us when He justifies us?

And if he doesn’t, how can a person posess the “Divine Nature” if he does not posess “the Divine Nature”?
(Because the “Divine Nature” is a transformation of your nature.)

Certainly you can’t think this transformation is some trivial afterthought from God unrelated to justification do you?

 

[Michael16]

I see you’re still proselytizing Protestant errors on a CATHOLIC website when the OP was asking for the CATHOLIC position.

Here’s the bottom line: Performing works without faith is empty. That’s what Saint Paul was teaching in Romans 2. We’re justified because we BELIEVE in Jesus and we DO what He tells us to do: That we love God with every fiber of our being and love others as we love ourselves. You see? Love in this sentence is a VERB: An action. All the Law and the prophets hang upon that. That’s how Jesus will decide who to admit and who to deny entrance into Heaven: Did I do the Father’s Will?

That simple. We BELIEVE and we DO. Along the way, God sends us the grace we need with which we can, if we cooperate of our own free will and that’s important to note; do the Father’s Will. Human free will in cooperation with God’s grace to accomplish His Will and live a holy life. When we fail along the way, that’s why we have Confession. That’s what’s necessary for our salvation.

Belief alone doesn’t matter AT ALL if it’s without action. That’s what Sola Fide, taken literally; teaches. That faith without action will save me. Look at it like this: I believe in Jesus with all of my heart. But if I continue to sin anyway, not caring to even TRY correcting my ways; faith doesn’t mean a blessed thing. Might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all the good it does me.

I know, I know: Because I believe, God changes me without any effort or free will on my own, since I’m incapable of choosing otherwise; so I CAN do good works! Or something like that is the usual Protestant defense. I tried living this way, once upon a time. It failed; badly. As if God forcibly imposes Himself on a hopelessly degenerate sinner, evil by his very nature and incapable of choosing anything but sin, evil, death and hell on his own! ( A contradiction of Genesis in which what God made, He called good. ) You see? Luther DENIED that humans had free will and DENIED the goodness of human nature. If humans have no free will, then why would a loving God condemn us to hell if that’s how He made us in the first place? Luther makes God into a schizophrenic! All this is Luther’s basic point in his justification by faith alone; trying to deny Saint James and end up doing what Saint James says to do anyway; having his heretical cake and eat it too. Posh!!

I’m reminded of something: Luther himself once wrote: When you sin, sin boldly! Seems to me that the arch heresiarch advocated that since, as he believed that humans have no free will as piles of dung covered with Christ’s righteousness, you might as well sin; knowing that God’ll forgive you anyway. That’s not the words of a holy man IMHO

The defense of Sola Fide is absurd, internally inconsistent and cherry picks Scripture verses defending an indefensible notion; from this basic fact.

If you continue to obstinately teach and defend your errors; all I have to say to you is this: God bless you, I love you as a separated brother in Christ and may God lead you one day into the only place that teaches the fullness and truth of Christ: The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the basic thing, OP: We are not justified by works of the Mosaic Law alone. We’re justified by faith AND works. They go together inseparably as a tandem necessity. The problem of the Judaizers was that they taught that the observance of the Law Of Moses was still a requirement of salvation. Saint Paul taught against it rightly so. Legal observance alone shall not gain justification before God. Saint James taught that faith alone is dead; works along with faith justifies. As Jesus taught: We enter or are denied entry into Heaven based on our DEEDS; whether or not we did the Will of the Father. We can believe whatever we want. Even the demons believe and shudder as Saint James also wrote. Faith alone doesn’t justify. Again: It’s faith in tandem with works.

 

[SyCarl]

If you are using what I posted it should be noted that I said that the transformation was in regeneration, not justification. This comes from Catholics and Protestants having different understanding of what justification means. Catholics give a wider meaning to it than Protestants who break things down into regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification. All these are viewed as part of salvation but justification is limited to the pardoning of sins and the imputation of righteousness not its infusion. The transformation is viewed as part of regeneration not justification. Regardless there is a transformation involved in salvation.

 

[Cathoholic]

SyCarl . . .

justification is limited to the pardoning of sins

Do you think that justification is reduced down to a moment alonevSyCarl? Or is justification a moment followed by a lifelong process?

What about someone who has God as their Father, but refuses to forgive the sins of their brother against them?

Are their sins forgiven?

Are they justified anyway?

 

[SyCarl]

If they refuse to forgive someone they would not have true faith to start with or it is no longer a true faith. I would say justification could be lost if someone stopped believing and in that sense it is a lifelong thing. But forgiving someone else’s sins is part of sanctification not justification. Works show our faith and follow it but they don’t justify us before God. But again I think people are arguing past each other by not recognizing the different meaning given to the terms involved.