Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[Eric_Hyom]

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

All the law and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments. The greatest commandments define the spirit of the law, they are on a higher level than the law.

Christ died for you and me, that must mean that he loves us as he loves himself. To love is above the law.

Just a thought.

 

[lanman87]

Paul was never saying that faith frees us from the obligation to be righteous, to obey, to be who we were created to be

I don’t know anyone who ever said it did. Anyway, my question wasn’t about faith alone. It was about how Paul seemingly contradicts himself.

 

[fhansen]

But that was my point. He doesn’t contradict himself. The law must still be fulfilled. The law is worthy to serve as the criteria for our judgment. IOW, while the Law cannot justify (because it has no power to), it still presents the right standard for our justice/righteousness.

 

[De_Maria]

My point was the difference in protestant & Catholic understanding of saved.

So who’s understanding are you expressing here?

We are not justified because we do the works. We do the works because we are justified.

To me, that sounds like the Protestant understanding. Whereas, as I understand Catholic Teaching, we must do the works before we are justified and we will not be justified if we do not do the works in accordance to the will of God.

Matthew 7:21 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
The True Disciple. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,[a] but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

 

[Justin_Mary]

So who’s understanding are you expressing here?

Mine. I’m Catholic, through & through. So I believe it’s the Catholic understanding.

To me, that sounds like the Protestant understanding. Whereas, as I understand Catholic Teaching, we must do the works before we are justified and we will not be justified if we do not do the works in accordance to the will of God.

I guess it depends on how you define “justified.”

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

We aren’t justified by any merit of our own.

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

I believe St James is saying his works (feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner) are the proofs of his faith.

The Sacrements are a totally different thing. I don’t believe we are justified by living sacramental lives, but are prepared to enter heaven. We are all justified by the cross. We are all invited to heaven.

But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply.Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Jesus said unless you eat His flesh & drink his blood you have no life in you.

I believe living the Sacrements clothes us in Christ. Transforming us from the inside. Allowing Christ to live in us, through us, with us. This, in my understanding, is the garment the King will expect us to be wearing at the Great Feast.

 

[De_Maria]

Mine. I’m Catholic, through & through. So I believe it’s the Catholic understanding.

Where do you get it? Here’s where I get mine. As I understand it, we are justified in Baptism. Thus, the Church says we must do these good works before we are baptized, thus, before we are justified.

Council of Trent
CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God…

I guess it depends on how you define “justified.”

As the Church defines it:

Council of Trent
CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting…

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

We aren’t justified by any merit of our own.

God judges our merit.

Matthew 10:38 and whoever does not take up his cross[a] and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Luke 20:35 …but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead …

I believe St James is saying his works (feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner) are the proofs of his faith.

Correct. And he says more.

James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Sacrements are a totally different thing. I don’t believe we are justified by living sacramental lives, but are prepared to enter heaven. We are all justified by the cross.

What matters is what the Church Teaches. It is in the Sacraments that we receive the grace and forgiveness to enter heaven.

We are all invited to heaven.

Through the door. No one is allowed to make their own entrance. God says that those who do good works are washed in His mercy which we receive in the Sacrament of the washing of regeneration which is Baptism.

Titus 3:5 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done
but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit,

But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply.Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

That’s correct. All are invited, but you must come in clothed in righteousness.

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

That, speaks of merit.

Jesus said unless you eat His flesh & drink his blood you have no life in you.

I believe living the Sacrements clothes us in Christ. Transforming us from the inside. Allowing Christ to live in us, through us, with us. This, in my understanding, is the garment the King will expect us to be wearing at the Great Feast.

Are you permitted to eat the Sacred Body and drink the Precious Blood if you are not first in a state of grace?

And if the answer to that is, yes, how do you attain or stay in a state of grace?

 

[lanman87]

But that was my point. He doesn’t contradict himself.

I agree. I was asking the Catholic interpretation of why it doesn’t.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

But that was my point. He doesn’t contradict himself.

I agree. I was asking the Catholic interpretation of why it doesn’t.

Well, that is the Catholic interpretation in any case:

1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:

God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts. [St Augustine]

1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin , which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart.16 However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity [love] are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23

1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace , because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom , because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity [love] and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who “does not know what his master is doing” to that of a friend of Christ - “For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you” - or even to the status of son and heir.31

So what is the Evangelical/Protestant answer, if you haven’t mentioned it thus far? What, IOW, is “the righteousness of God [that] has been manifested apart from the law”, “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe”?

 

[De_Maria]

lanman87:

fhansen:

But that was my point. He doesn’t contradict himself.

I agree. I was asking the Catholic interpretation of why it doesn’t.

How do you correlate,

Galatians 6: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

with salvation by faith alone?

 

[Justin_Mary]

Where do you get it? Here’s where I get mine. As I understand it, we are justified in Baptism. Thus, the Church says we must do these good works before we are baptized, thus, before we are justified.

I think we’re saying the same thing. But we’re bouncing back & forth between saved, justified, & reborn which are all the same to the protestant (I think) but not so for us.

 

[fhansen]

I wasn’t supporting faith alone, if that was directed to me.

 

[De_Maria]

I wasn’t supporting faith alone, if that was directed to me.

No. It was directed at @Ianman87.

 

[fhansen]

Just making sure

 

[fhansen]

It seems Paul is saying that “Yes, you are justified by doing the work of the law” but then says “you are made righteous and justified by faith and not doing the work of the law”. If he is addressing the Judaizers then why would he ever tell them that they are justified by doing the “work of the law”? Isn’t that what he was trying to teach against?

Justification is a free gift, in response to faith, by which man is truly justified- or made just- not only forgiven but cleansed and made a new creation, given the virtues of faith, hope, and love even if only in seedling form at that point. God the Trinity takes up residence in us. From there we’re expected to walk in that state of justice or righteousness, to nurture and grow those virtues with God’s continuous help as He indwells us, to refrain from sin, to perform the works He has prepared for us. Otherwise we prove ourselves unworthy of this grace, of this justice, of Him. We can lose this state, especially with persistence in serious sin, which is an act against love of God and neighbor. It’s to turn back away from Him, ‘apart from whom we can do nothing’ (John 15:5). Serious sin is outlined by the Law, by which we’ll be judged even though the Law cannot, itself, justify us. Only God can. But from Eden until now God never completely overrides the will of man, even as He informs and coaxes and draws it towards Himself. Again, basic Catholic teaching.

 

[lanman87]

How do you correlate…, Galatians 6:6-10 with salvation by faith alone?

Throughout the entire book of Galatians Paul is comparing living under the law (both Mosaic and Moral) with living a life of faith in the Spirit. Galatians 6:6-10 is part of Paul’s closing argument and conclusion of his letter.

You receive the Holy Spirit by “hearing with Faith” (3:2) and/or by belief (3:22).
When you receive the Holy Spirit you are adopted as a son of God (4:6-7)
Through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly await the hope of righteousness (5:5a)
Faith works through love (5:5b)
If we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh (5:16)
If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law (5:18)
The Spirit produces fruit (5:22)
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (5:24)

So what does it mean to “Sow in the Spirit”? In another post I quoted John Piper in his book Desiring God…
We must believe in Jesus and receive Him and turn from our sin and obey Him and humble ourselves like little children and love Him more than we love our family, our possessions, and our own life. This is what it means to be converted to Christ. This alone is the way of life everlasting.

Those who truly have a saving faith (have been truly converted and are sowing in the Spirit) are the ones who have crucified the flesh with its passions. They are the ones who seek after His Kingdom and His righteousness. They are the ones who faith works through love. They are the ones who eagerly await the hope of righteousness, they are the ones adopted as sons, and they are the ones who “walk in the Spirit” and reap eternal life.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

I was wondering how Catholics reconcile Romans 2:13

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

It seems to blend perfectly with the entire New Testament:

James 1:22-25 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

James 2:8-11 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by works, is dead.

Titus 1:16, 2:11-14, 3:14

Hebrews 10:26-36

2 Timothy 3:17

John 3:20-21, 5:39-40

I could go on & on, but ran out of time. Hope these verses help.

 

[lanman87]

I agree with pretty much everything wrote except one thing.

From there we’re expected to walk in that state of justice or righteousness, to nurture and grow those virtues with God’s continuous help as He indwells us, to refrain from sin, to perform the works He has prepared for us

I would change it to "

From there those who truly have and faith and are new creations in Christ will walk in that state of justice or righteousness, to nurture and grow those virtues with God’s continuous help as He indwells us, to refrain from sin, to perform the works He has prepared for us.

If you say you have faith and yet don’t follow Christ then you really don’t have faith.

 

[fhansen]

We can taste of the heavenly gift and then reject it, be branches grafted in and then cut back off. You don’t need to defend “faith alone” so vigorously as I see it. We can compromise our faith, we can act against it, we can diminish it by turning back away from God. It’s not faith, by itself, that makes us just or righteous- it’s the relationship with God that faith establishes in response to grace that does so. That relationship is the essence of our justice IOW. It’s what our righteousness consists of. Faith is the foundation of and doorway to this vital state of being within which our salvation is worked out. The difference is subtle in some ways but I think there are important nuances.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

How do you correlate…, Galatians 6:6-10 with salvation by faith alone?

Throughout the entire book of Galatians Paul is comparing living under the law (both Mosaic and Moral) with living a life of faith in the Spirit.

I’d have to disagree with your premise statement, above.

St. Paul is warning Christians can fall away and of the dangers of falling away. Here is the start of Gal 6:

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault,

If a Christian sins

ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness;

You which are in a state of grace, bring him back with patience.

considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

But be careful not to fall under the same sin.

Galatians 6:6-10 is part of Paul’s closing argument and conclusion of his letter.

You receive the Holy Spirit by “hearing with Faith” (3:2) and/or by belief (3:22).
When you receive the Holy Spirit you are adopted as a son of God (4:6-7)
Through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly await the hope of righteousness (5:5a)
Faith works through love (5:5b)
If we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh (5:16)
If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law (5:18)
The Spirit produces fruit (5:22)
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (5:24)

All this is in line with salvation by faith and works. I don’t see how
you consider it to be about faith alone.

So what does it mean to “Sow in the Spirit”? In another post I quoted John Piper in his book Desiring God…
We must believe in Jesus and receive Him and turn from our sin and obey Him and humble ourselves like little children and love Him more than we love our family, our possessions, and our own life. This is what it means to be converted to Christ. This alone is the way of life everlasting.

Those who truly have a saving faith (have been truly converted and are sowing in the Spirit) are the ones who have crucified the flesh with its passions.

Before or after they are “saved”?

They are the ones who seek after His Kingdom and His righteousness.

Before or after they are “saved”?

They are the ones who faith works through love. They are the ones who eagerly await the hope of righteousness, they are the ones adopted as sons, and they are the ones who “walk in the Spirit” and reap eternal life.

Who are they who sow to the flesh?

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.