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lanman87
Guest
And how do we break that relationship? I would say a total loss of faith/belief.
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De_Maria
Guest
If you’re talking about Rom 2:13 St. Paul is saying,
those who do the works fo the Law are justified by God.
It’s like this. Let’s say that you see a little old man trying to
shovel snow off his driveway. He’s stumbling around and you feel
sorry for him. So, you take the shovel and make short work of the
snow. THAT is a meritorious work in God’s eyes.
When you go to Church and call upon the name of the Lord with faith, you can’t bring the shovel and scoop your sins out of your soul. But God will see your good work and
He will number you amongst the Sheep and He will justify you
because you have done His will.
In that example:
Do you see how those who do the works of the law are justified?
Do you see how they are justified by their faith APART from their
works?
They believe they are justified by doing the works of the Law. He is
correcting them and being more precise. Those who do the
works of the law, are justified by God.
No, he is Teaching about the Sacraments. Only those who do
God’s will are justified, BY GOD. No one can say, “Look, I’m just
because I’ve done God’s will.” God is the judge of who does His
will.
In the same way, no one is justified because they say, “Look, I’m justified
because of my faith.” God is the judge of a man’s faith, as well.
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lanman87
Guest
Simultaneously and afterward. It is a work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sinful and hopeless state and draw us to Christ. When we see our need for Christ we respond in faith and which time the Holy Spirit moves from conviction and drawing us to Christ to living with us and adopting us as Sons. The Holy Spirit also gives us a new heart and changes our affections to one of hostility or apathy toward God to one of love and honor of God. Which results in one “sowing in the Spirit”.
They are the ones who tried to be justified by following the Mosaic law and/or followed after the desires of the flesh. They are the ones who don’t really believe because if you really believe in Christ then you will follow Him.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
Faith works through love… in your mind, what does “works” here mean?
What does it mean to “walk in the Spirit” does it involve doing anything?
What does the Spirit lead us to do?
It is my understanding that what comes out of a man is always based on what he believes. If he believes the law leads to life he will fulfill the law. If he believes the law stifles life, he will break the law.
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lanman87
Guest
Coming to faith in Christ (or being converted) is when we surrender ourselves to Christ and His teachings, are filled with the Holy Spirit, are given a new heart, and are adopted as a child of God. If that truly happens the our entire outlook on life and purpose for living is changed. If it hasn’t changed then we don’t really have faith.
Faith working through love is the result of that change in our hearts. It is loving and enjoying Christ so much that you want others to also experience the love and forgiveness of Christ. It is getting mad at yourself when you sin and seeking out support and encouragement to help avoid sin as you confess that sin to others. It is seeing someone in need and having a broken heart for them and doing whatever you can to help them. It is letting your light shine before men so they will see your good works and they to will glorify our Father who is in heaven.
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fhansen
Guest
I don’t know if that has to come first. Our love for God, as it increases, it what causes our bond with Him to deepen. Is that connected to but still distinct from faith? I believe so. Faith is the beginning of it all from our side of things, but we can still be swayed towards evil even as we continue to know there’s a God. To the extent that we come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, our justice/righteousness/perfection would be complete, and sin would be excluded by this automatically. Again it depends on how we want to define faith or how much the term should cover. But Paul in 1 Cor 13:2&13 seems to indicate otherwise. Faith is critical, but more is expected of or from it, demanded even.
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lanman87
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Well then their is another difference. I don’t think we can love God at all until we come to faith/trust in Him. We can love things about Him. We can love the idea of Him. But in truth we are spiritually dead and don’t really understand what Loving God is until we are filled with the Holy Spirit (which I believe happens at belief/conversion and not baptism). see Galatians 3:2, 3:22 and Eph 1:13 oh yea, also the story of Cornelius in Acts who was “baptized with the Spirit” before his water baptism.
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fhansen
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I added in a little more to my last post BTW. I don’t think we can love as we should either until a relationship is established which is based on faith. But that love is the essence and measure of our justice or righteousness, and the basis of our final judgment. Faith should lead us to it, as it leads us to the Well from which we must drink in order to have life, but I don’t know that we can’t forfeit love, so to speak, and still retain faith, at least in the sense of still believing in God’s existence and promises. Anyway, the Church teaches that we can fail to love and yet retain faith. Paul and James seem to agree. Again, it depends on how faith is defined.
Maybe you can restate how you reconcile Rom 2:13 with the others. I don’t know that I’ve seen it.
Maybe you can restate how you reconcile Rom 2:13 with the others. I don’t know that I’ve seen it.
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De_Maria
Guest
De_Maria:
Before or after they are “saved”?
Simultaneously? How long does this take?
Here’s what I mean. If it happens simultaneously,
a. how many works must one do “simultaneously” before one knows one possesses a saving faith?
b. and how do we know it’s happening simultaneously with the Holy Spirit?
What if I did something I consider good, but the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with it?
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lanman87
Guest
a. how many works must one do “simultaneously” before one knows one possesses a saving faith?
b. and how do we know it’s happening simultaneously with the Holy Spirit?
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13
We know we abide in him and he in us the moment He gives us His Spirit.
We know when our hearts have been changed, when we have repented, and what are affections are immediately. Our ongoing works confirm to us that our conversion was real and give evidence that our faith is “alive”.
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lanman87
Guest
Not everything we do as Christians comes from faith or from following the Holy Spirit. Even good things (in our eyes) that are done in our own power and without the leading of the Holy Spirit are carnal things. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin Romans 14:23. When there is no faith, all acts displease God.
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De_Maria
Guest
If you know the moment He gives us His Spirit, why do you need ongoing works for confirmation?De_Maria:
a. how many works must one do “simultaneously” before one knows one possesses a saving faith?
b. and how do we know it’s happening simultaneously with the Holy Spirit?
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13
We know we abide in him and he in us the moment He gives us His Spirit.
We know when our hearts have been changed, when we have repented, and what are affections are immediately. Our ongoing works confirm to us that our conversion was real and give evidence that our faith is “alive”.
P.S. I don’t mean to annoy you with all these questions. But, according to our understanding,
a. faith and good works precede justification.
b. God judges our works.
c. God judges our faith.
d. Grace precedes all and is the cause of all, if we cooperate.
e. Yes, we believe we can hinder grace, God does not force Himself
on anyone.
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lanman87
Guest
Because we are human and can doubt and second guess ourselves.
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De_Maria
Guest
Agreed. Doesn’t that argue against proclaiming yourself saved?De_Maria:
Because we are human and can doubt and second guess ourselves.
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De_Maria
Guest
Why did you use the word, “truly” in this sentence? Is there ever any confusion about this? Is it possible that some people who claim to “truly” possess a saving faith, may later, fall away?
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lanman87
Guest
Proclaiming myself as saved is simply saying that I’ve come to faith in Christ and have surrendered my life to him doesn’t necessarily make someone a Christian. John MacArthur puts it this way:
Here are exerts from his sermon “Examine Yourself”.
“Are you a Christian? Many people who claim to be point to some event in the past to substantiate their claim. But inviting Jesus to come into your life in the past is not proof that you are genuinely saved. In 2 Corinthians 13:5 Paul says to the Corinthian church, " Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves (emphasis added).” He wouldn’t have said that if some event in the past were obviously the answer. The Bible never verifies anyone’s salvation by the past but by the present. If there is no evidence of salvation in your life now, you need to face the fact that you may not be a Christian. You need to examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith."
“A person’s profession of Christ means nothing apart from obedience and holiness. Some people believe you can come to Jesus Christ without a consequent change in life-style. But God expects a transformation.”
“The Bible makes it clear that those who are genuinely saved are righteous and holy. They still sin, but with decreasing frequency. A true believer hates his sin (cf., Rom. 7:15-25) and repents of it, hungering and thirsting for what is right. He obeys God, loves his brother, and hates the evil world system. No one can be a Christian and continue living the way he did before he knew Christ. Making a decision years ago, going to an inquiry room, walking an aisle, or reading a tract on how to accept Christ is not a biblical criterion for salvation—the issue is what your life is like right now. If sin and unrighteousness characterize your life, there is a possibility you are a disobedient Christian—but there is a greater possibility you are not a Christian at all.”
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De_Maria
Guest
That’s very good, actually.De_Maria:
Proclaiming myself as saved is simply saying that I’ve come to faith in Christ and have surrendered my life to him doesn’t necessarily make someone a Christian. John MacArthur puts it this way:…
So, basically, the difference between that and Catholicism is that you
believe that good works follow salvation. Is that right?
Whereas, we believe that good works follow faith and both precede salvation.
Where do you see the role of “repentance”? It seems to be necessary for salvation
along with faith. At least, that’s what we believe.
and repents of it,
Isn’t repentance a work? And doesn’t it precede salvation?
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
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fhansen
Guest
The problem is that the believer isn’t hungering and thirsting more for what is right than he is for something else, something less-than-right, when he sins. He’s not acting righteous and holy at that point, and no appeal to Christ’s righteousness is going to make him right in the eyes of God to the extent that he continues in that vein, especially in persistent and serious sin. And unless and until we know for certain that we’re winning that battle we can’t predict whether or not we’re saved. We can have a certain level of assurance based on where we are right now but we can’t know the future, with our weaknesses and limitations. Only God knows with that degree of certainty. So we’re truly saved at the end of the day, when He says so. Until then these teachings hold true:
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
This becoming “bound” is a tall order, impossible without grace-and it’s God’s desire for us. At that time we’ll fully love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. So the Church can teach, even knowing that this love may still be imperfect:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
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lanman87
Guest
Repentance is a result of conversion. It is the result of falling in love with Jesus. If someone says, “I believe in Jesus” and yet refuses to repent then they are deceived. True repentance can only come after conversion (coming to faith, trusting in Christ, being born-again…however you want to put it). Any act of repentance before having faith in Christ is an attempt to be justified and saved by the law (either Jewish or moral). Repenting after coming to faith in Christ (conversion, indwelled by the Spirit…) is part of working out our faith and living a life of faith and walking in the Spirit.
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De_Maria
Guest
But conversion is not justification, is it?De_Maria:
Repentance is a result of conversion.
I’d say it is the result of coming to faith in Jesus. I agree with the rest.
I see. So you equate conversion and justification. Where do you put Baptism?
Repentance is a work. Good works follow faith. God saves those who keep the law, either Jewish or moral or the Commandments. Whatever you want to call it. Its the same.
When was St. Paul justified? When he was knocked off his horse? Or when he was baptized?
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
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