Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

And I’ve found that the Confessions state what they are supposed to believe. But, most of the time, they don’t believe what the Confessions say they are supposed to believe.

Agreed - I would argue that this could be said about Catholics as well, no? Sadly, I think both Catholics and Protestants suffer generally from poor catechesis.

Generally speaking, I don’t blame the catechesis. I blame the individual. The catechesis is the same for everyone. Especially in this day and age when the information is literally at our finger tips. They just need to research, study and learn. But they don’t take the time.

Thanks for responding.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Generally speaking, I don’t blame the catechesis. I blame the individual. The catechesis is the same for everyone. Especially in this day and age when the information is literally at our finger tips. They just need to research, study and learn. But they don’t take the time.

Or even listen to what is said (prayed) during the Mass & reflect on their lives in relation.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with that. No matter how good the catechesis we must seek on our own…in order to find for ourselves. But in the past I found catechesis to be sketchy at times, with RCIA possibly worse than childhood -CCD-in some dioceses.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with all that, but I think it can be stated more simply. It is the washing of regeneration. It is the complete removal of all sin from our souls. Thus, we are returned to that state of union and complete justice with which Adam was created.

Yes I agree; sin is forgiven and removed and justice added in at regeneration. We still lack some of Adam’s gifts but we’re also at a certain advantage here compared with him in Eden. We’re sort of like Prodigals who’ve experienced what life is like away from the Father for all practical purposes, and so can develop a hunger and thirst for the truth and righteousness that’s so often missing in a world where man’s will reigns in the moral sphere, a hunger for the love that’s missing. In this way we’re all the more ready and willing to recognize our need for God and seek Him out- or answer when He comes calling.

 

[TULIPed]

Totally agree. However, at the risk of sounding…well, “Old School”, I think the Church - Protestant and Catholic (I know I know - you’re the only real “Church” - permit me to use a term of art here for the sake of brevity for goodness sake ) bears some blame with respect to poor catechesis.

When I was confirmed as a 7th grader as a Presbyterian, we went through a full year of class, complete with homework assignments and tests. We were examined by the elders of the church, which meant random questions from the various confessions. First question I got:

Elder: “What is the chief end of man?”

Me: “Man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.”

It went downhill from there

 

[po18guy]

The entirety of the scriptures, both old and new, is a unified synthesis of God’s covenants with mankind. We cannot take a single verse out of context, or rely on a single verse. It is all or nothing.

Proper understanding? Well, that is another subject altogether.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I agree with all that, but I think it can be stated more simply. It is the washing of regeneration. It is the complete removal of all sin from our souls. Thus, we are returned to that state of union and complete justice with which Adam was created.

Yes I agree; sin is forgiven and removed and justice added in at regeneration. We still lack some of Adam’s gifts but we’re also at a certain advantage here compared with him in Eden. We’re sort of like Prodigals who’ve experienced what life is like away from the Father for all practical purposes, and so can develop a hunger and thirst for the truth and righteousness that’s so often missing in a world where man’s will reigns in the moral sphere, a hunger for the love that’s missing. In this way we’re all the more ready and willing to recognize our need for God and seek Him out- or answer when He comes calling.

This is a perfect place to contrast the Protestant idea of “forensic” justification with the Catholic Teaching of “infused” grace. The Protestant idea conflicts and contradicts the Teaching of being born again in Christ and being made a new creation. In their teaching, as I understand it, the guilty man is simply declared righteous but is not righteous at all. Therefore, the frequently mentioned, “snow covered dunghill” metaphor.

 

[De_Maria]

Totally agree. However, at the risk of sounding…well, “Old School”, I think the Church - Protestant and Catholic (I know I know - you’re the only real “Church” - permit me to use a term of art here for the sake of brevity for goodness sake ) bears some blame with respect to poor catechesis.

When I was confirmed as a 7th grader as a Presbyterian, we went through a full year of class, complete with homework assignments and tests. We were examined by the elders of the church, which meant random questions from the various confessions. First question I got:

Elder: “What is the chief end of man?”

Me: “Man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.”

It went downhill from there

The entirety of the scriptures, both old and new, is a unified synthesis of God’s covenants with mankind. We cannot take a single verse out of context, or rely on a single verse. It is all or nothing.

Proper understanding? Well, that is another subject altogether.

I think you have both hit upon another reason why I consider the Catholic system superior. The Protestant system places more weight upon what you know. Each individual must know and understand the teaching of Scripture.

But the Catholic system is more focused upon what you do. Catholicism Teaches us to love our neighbor and to do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

In the end, we don’t believe that the Final Judgment will be an exam with multiple choice questions. It will be a review of what we have done with the gifts God has given us.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[De_Maria]

I know I know - you’re the only real “Church”

I know you said this facetiously. But,

1. It’s true.
2. Then there’s the fact that the Catholic Church recognizes your, (i.e. Protestant) efforts to please God and explains that these efforts are acceptable to God.

Yes, I know, there’s the anathemas. But, in my opinion, those are only applicable to those who oppose God’s Church. Simply being a Protestant who is doing your best to do the will of God does not put you at odds with God. But being a Protestant who rejects and opposes the Catholic Church, does put you at odds with God. Ultimately, the Catholic Church is the only true Church.

And there’s another thing.

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Your zeal for Christ does not displease God.

 

[lanman87]

We probably assumed that you were challenging the Doctrine of justification by faith and works. That’s what Protestants usually do.

So, anyway, did we answer your question about the “apparent” contradiction to your satisfaction?

I didn’t have any nefarious reasons for asking that question. I simply wanted to see what the answers were from a Catholic perspective. I’m kinda shocked that some of the answers were very close to what I would say.

 

[lanman87]

Then, if you share that belief, what sort of faith do you or he believe, saves? A faith that is not true because it is not accompanied by works? Faith alone? What?

Is that a fair question?

I believe in a saving faith in Christ alone. When we say “faith alone” we are not talking about belief alone. There are plenty of people in the world who believe in Jesus but don’t have faith. It is one thing to intellectually agree with who Jesus is but that doesn’t mean you have faith. I would say it is also possible to intellectually agree with Jesus is and put on religious trappings and still not have a faith. It is easy to say “I believe in Jesus” and then go through the motions of worship and church culture without having any real change in our hearts or our “profession of faith” really affect how we live our daily lives.

True faith is faith that changes us. True faith in Christ is the ultimate change agent. But we are not changing ourselves. It is Christ who comes to live in us and moves in us that changes us. He changes us from the inside out. He gives us a new heart so we see the world completely differently. Our affections are changed so that what breaks our hearts and moves us to action reflect Christ and His Kingdom. Our attitude is changed from that of being against God to wanting to bring Him glory. Our actions are changed as a result of our heart, affections, and attitude being changed. The result is we “go out on faith” and do things we never thought we would do. We do things that frighten us a little or make us uncomfortable because we feel so strongly that Christ is leading and calling us to do those things. Doing His will and bringing Him glory and living out the gospel becomes our ultimate purpose in life. Seeing people come to faith in Him brings us great joy. Seeing Him move to help the weak and oppressed and doing what He calls us to do in that regard becomes a passion.

This new heart, new affections, and new attitude also change us to struggle against sin. Suddenly the things that were so pleasurable leave a bitter taste in our hearts because the Holy Spirit is convicting us and compelling us to be more like Christ. We hate our sin and war against it and we learn to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh as we grow in our faith and as our faith becomes stronger.

I could go on and on but you get the idea. A saving faith in Christ is a powerful thing. It is living and strong and all the power and strength comes from the grace and glory and majesty of God and the power and conviction of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . .

Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ .

This is good TULIPed.

Common ground for sure.

Now the issue becomes . . .

. . . What if someone who has had this moment of faith (in Baptism for Catholics or “accepting Jesus into your heart as Lord and Savior” in many Bible-only outlooks) now refuses good works?

Then what?

Is he saved anyway?

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . .

True faith is faith that changes us.

What if later a guy who has true faith and it changed him, later decides to make “shipwreck of his faith” and refuses to bear fruit and persists in this?

Then what?

Is he going to Heaven anyway?

 

[De_Maria]

I understand and agree about the transformational power of faith. I understand and agree that it is God working in us. That makes the works all the more necessary. The works prove God working through us and in us to accomplish His will.

That’s what we call, conversion, which we believe is the very first part of justification. For us, it’s a process. That faith, must be accompanied by works before it becomes a saving faith.

Whereas, if I’m correct, you would have the individual justified at the first moment of faith. Before that faith has a chance to affect any work. At the point where the only opportunity the individual has had, is to say, “I believe in Jesus.” And then, either he or somebody says to him, “you’re saved!”

We don’t believe that a faith, which has not transformed a life, can save. We don’t believe anyone except God can declare another saved.

Is that a fair analysis of the differences in what we believe?

 

[TULIPed]

This is good TULIPed.

Common ground for sure.

Thank you @Cathoholic. I appreciate your charitable words. I’m embarrassed to admit that for a long time, I believed that Catholics and Protestants had very little in common. And then, I decided that before I continued to speak about what I thought I knew about my Catholic friends, I ought to actually read about what they believed.

And so I began to read the Catechism. And I discovered that, while we disagree on a number of key theological issues, we agree on the most important theological concept - that Jesus Christ is King and Lord of all - and that He, in perfect and complete unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit, is worthy of worship and praise. In time, with His mercy and grace, we’ll be together again.

What if someone who has had this moment of faith (in Baptism for Catholics or “accepting Jesus into your heart as Lord and Savior” in many Bible-only outlooks) now refuses good works?

Then what?

Is he saved anyway?

To answer your question - we believe that good works are evidence of a true and lively faith. We don’t “cooperate” with Christ for good works. All credit for anything good we do goes to Him - and Him alone. Without a deeply personal and intimate relationship with Christ, all our good works - at least as far as how God sees them - are as “dirty rags”. We are entirely helpless and lost without Him.

Therefore, I can’t for the life of me see how someone could have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and refuse - in spite of the conviction that Christians feel about sin - to be obedient to Christ. Having said that - in my case at least - sanctification takes time. (I think it’s possible for miraculous change - and I pray for it constantly - unfortunately, the Holy Spirit apparently has the marathon in mind for me - I wish He’d occasionally throw in a sprint!)

Thus - and I know you’d agree with me on this - we don’t judge people on their actions. We love Christ, we love them, and we pray for them.

 

[TULIPed]

We don’t believe that a faith, which has not transformed a life, can save.

Curious this. Does this mean somebody can’t be become Catholic on their deathbed, or as their last act on a battlefield?

 

[lanman87]

What if later a guy who has true faith and it changed him, later decides to make “shipwreck of his faith” and refuses to bear fruit and persists in this?

Then what?

Is he going to Heaven anyway?

That is not my decision to make. My assumption is that God would look at his heart and take into account things we cannot know and see.

 

[lanman87]

This a an analogy (flawed) of what we Evangelicals believe Catholicism teaches.

When I hear the term “Merit” salvation I think of a School Master giving out merits and demerits to students based on things they do. If they do extra credit they may get merit points and if they get caught smoking in the bathroom they may get points taken away. The caveat is that in order to graduate you must not only be a student (be initially justified by faith/baptism) but must have enough merit (done enough good works and abstained from doing bad works) to graduate (have eternal life).

Because of that mindset, we see Catholicism as believing that when we do something good, let’s say help an elderly person carry their groceries to the car, then God or an angel or somebody gives us “Merit” points but when we do something bad, let’s say flip a bird to the guy who cut us off in traffic, the someone takes “Merit” points away. If we do something really bad (Mortal sin) then boom! all the merit is taken away. Participating in the Sacraments really pile up the merit points, especially the Eucharist and reconciliation/confession (which takes away the demerits). Then when we die, those who believe in Jesus will be judged by how many “merits” they have. If God judges them to have done enough then most people will go to purgatory where the remaining demerits (that weren’t taken care of by confession) will be burned away. When that process is finished they get to go to Heaven. I know Catholic doctrine is much deeper than that analogy. I’m just saying when I hear the words “Merit” that is what come to my mind.

The doctrine of faith alone is basically a doctrine that says we are saved only by believing in a trusting in Christ. But is also says that faith and trust must be put into action or it really isn’t faith and trust. Faith alone isn’t the doctrine of intellectual understanding and acknowledgement of who Christ is alone. There are a lot of people who believe the Christ is who He says He is and yet their heart hasn’t been changed and they haven’t surrendered themselves to follow Christ. And while doing good works don’t merit us eternal life (because if it does then eternal life isn’t really free) good works and being faithful followers of Christ does does in some way bring us blessings and eternal rewards. So it is not like we Evangelicals don’t believe in Merit (although we had rather use the words blessings or rewards) we just don’t believe we merit eternal life. All grace of God comes by and through faith (which is another word for change of heart and being converted into a follower of Christ) and all works of love, compassion, evangelism and so forth comes out of that faith and they strengthen and grow that faith so we are more conformed to the image of Christ.

So the doctrine of faith alone doesn’t discourage or keep us from doing good works. It just changes the “why” we do good works from one of a system of merit to one of having a changed heart that loves Christ and wants to follow Him. To be clear, I’m not saying that Catholics don’t love Christ. I’m simply saying we remove trying to “merit” eternal life from the equation.

 

[lanman87]

We don’t believe that a faith, which has not transformed a life, can save. We don’t believe anyone except God can declare another saved.

Just another thought, we don’t believe that a faith, which has not transformed a heart , can save.

I once told someone that Catholicisms believes in Salvation goes from the outside in, by taking part in the sacraments and doing good works our heart is gradually changed to be more like Christ. While Evangelicalism believes that Salvation goes from the inside out, where God changes our hearts and the outward changes flow from the changed heart.

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . . .

We don’t “cooperate” with Christ for good works.

.

St. Paul . . . .

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1-2a WORKING together with him, then, we entreat you
not to accept the grace of God in vain. 2 For he says,

“At the acceptable time I have listened to you,
and helped you on the day of salvation.” . . .

.

The Catholic Church . . . .

WORKING together with him, then, we entreat you
not to accept the grace of God in vain. For he says,

“At the acceptable time I have listened to you,
and helped you on the day of salvation.” . . .

.

Cathoholic . . . . .

WORKING together with him, then, the Apostles entreat you
not to accept the grace of God in vain. For he says,

“At the acceptable time I have listened to you,
and helped you on the day of salvation.” . . .

NOT St. Paul . . . .

NOT 2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1-2a WORKING together with him, is good. But I can’t see for the life of me how someone could have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and refuse to cooperate.

“At the acceptable time I have listened to you,
and done it all so you cannot even cooperate with me [by grace too] on the day of salvation.” . . .