Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[lanman87]

So, to understand, do you believe in universal salvation?

No, I believe God’s Children are those who have been born again and adopted as Children of God by the Spirit through faith.

 

[fhansen]

Ok, so He disciplines those He loves. Purgatory is a state of purification. And we’re all God’s children BTW, because God didn’t create sinners; everything He creates is inherently good, and made in His image, even if some reject His fatherhood and refuse to reflect that image.

 

[De_Maria]

fhansen:

So, to understand, do you believe in universal salvation?

No, I believe God’s Children are those who have been born again and adopted as Children of God by the Spirit through faith.

So do we. But you deny that regeneration can result when we express our faith in God and He pours His mercy into our souls by the efficacious sign of water.

Yet, you don’t have any qualms about this being effected by the laying on of hands?

I remember asking you about his before. I don’t remember an answer. Do you believe the Spirit can be given by the laying on of hands?

Acts 8:18

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands , he offered them money

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . .

How much credit do you give yourself for your salvation?

It is irrelevant how much credit I do or do not “give myself” with regards to the process of my salvation.

Please consider the verses of Christ at WORK in you and through you.
Just ask yourself if salvation is a lifelong process, could this work of Jesus “count” for anything regarding our salvation?

PHILIPPIANS 2:12a 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation . . . !!!

HOW can we possibly DO this?? Fortunately St. Paul tells us in the very next sentence how. By God WORKING within us!

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

PHILIPPIANS 4:13 13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

GALATIANS 2:20 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me ; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Notice “faith” includes obedience in St. Paul’s proverbial lexicon. The way you “live”.

EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

Would you say “salvation” is “far LESS abundantly than all that we ask or think”? Hopefully not.

HEBREWS 13:20a, 21 “Now may the God of peace . . . . equip you with everything good that you may do His will , working in you that which is pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1st THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is AT WORK IN you believers .

PHILIPPIANS 1:6 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1/2 . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

2/2 . . . .

ROMANS 6:3-5 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death ? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his , we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his .

2nd CORINTHIANS 9:8-10 8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written, “He scatters abroad, he gives to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever.” 10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

And we already looked at these next two (but I will put them up again here) . . .

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him , then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for
whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption;
but he who sows to the Spirit
will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

From the Council of Trent . . . .

From Chapter 7

. . . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

Also . . .

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

 

[Cathoholic]

I asked . . .

So my question remains. Does this guy get to go to Heaven anyway?

Ianman87.

You replied with 1st John 5:13 (out of context) . . . .

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

Ianman87.

That verse is provisional and concern “these things” preceeding this verse in his letter.

That means it is PROVIDED YOU DO something (at least in some of the cases here in 1st John).

1st John has 23 “IFs” (if I recall correctly - but in all fairness I did not look it up again this time so the number may be different).

I want you to go back to 1st John and include some of those “ifs” contextually that precede the verse you used and then we will go deeper.

.

Ianman87 (here) . . . . .

Those who truly have a saving faith (have been truly converted and are sowing in the Spirit) are the ones who have crucified the flesh with its passions. They are the ones who seek after His Kingdom and His righteousness. They are the ones who faith works through love.

You are absolutizing something the Bible does not.

What if they don’t seek after righteousness? Then what?

What if they have faith but have not the grace of charity or “love”.

St. Paul tells us we can have “faith” to move mountains, but if we do not have “charity” or “love” (love of course necessitates “obedience”) we gain . . . .Heaven?

No!

We GAIN NOTHING as St. Paul reminds us in 1st Corinthians 13.

Ianman87 (here) . . .

if you really believe in Christ then you will follow Him.

Aside from an absolute that contradicts St. Paul, WHERE is this verse that teaches this tradition?

It MAY be true in a given person, but it may not as well.

 

[Johan]

Because they serve in the newness of the Spirit. What does it mean to serve in the newness of the Spirit?

It is a reference to prophecies pertaining to the New Covenant, particularly those found in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36. In our new life with Christ, we are led by the Spirit and taught by Him, rather than being subject to a set of written commands.

The reason they are no longer under the Law is because they are no longer transgressing the Law.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

No Christian can make the claim that (s)he is no longer sinning. “We all stumble in many ways” (Jas 3:2). “For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate” (Rom. 7:15). And if that translation of 1 John 3:4 would be correct, there would be a glaring contradiction with Rom 5:13 which says that sin was in the world before the Law was given.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (NASB)

That is what the underlying text says, as John is using the noun anomia (lawlessness, wickedness) twice in that verse, rather than for instance parabasis which literally means transgression. Sin is indeed wickedness and rebellion against God. However, the Law was not given to define sin, but to “increase the trespass” (Rom 5:20).

Is it really the official Catholic position that Christians are no longer transgressing God’s moral imperatives? In that case, why do you practice confession? What is there to confess if you are sinless?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Because they serve in the newness of the Spirit. What does it mean to serve in the newness of the Spirit?

It is a reference to prophecies pertaining to the New Covenant, particularly those found in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36. In our new life with Christ, we are led by the Spirit and taught by Him, rather than being subject to a set of written commands.

Do those who walk in the newness of the Spirit transgress the written commands?

Romans 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit .

No Christian can make the claim that (s)he is no longer sinning.

and yet Protestants claim that they are saved and are guaranteed to go to heaven. Have you not heard that nothing impure will enter there?

“We all stumble in many ways” (Jas 3:2). “For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate” (Rom. 7:15). And if that translation of 1 John 3:4 would be correct, there would be a glaring contradiction with Rom 5:13 which says that sin was in the world before the Law was given.

But if you read the very next verse, you’ll see that many have died without committing sin.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (NASB)

That is what the underlying text says, as John is using the noun anomia (lawlessness, wickedness) twice in that verse, rather than for instance parabasis which literally means transgression. Sin is indeed wickedness and rebellion against God. However, the Law was not given to define sin, but to “increase the trespass” (Rom 5:20).

In that very same book, St. John says that it is possiblle for us to live without commtting sin. And Jesus says, “be perfect as my Father is perfect”. Jesus would not lie to us.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Is it really the official Catholic position that Christians are no longer transgressing God’s moral imperatives?

No. But it is Catholic Teaching that we can achieve a level of sanctification, by habitually doing good works and living in union with Christ, wherein we no longer commit sins. Thereby, the Catholic Church holds out to us the example of the Saints and especially of Mother Mary in that regard.

In that case, why do you practice confession?

Because most of us are still making our faith perfect in good works.

James 2:22

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works , and by works was faith made perfect ?

What is there to confess if you are sinless?

We confess our sins until that time when we no longer commit sins. And then, we present ourselves to the Priest to fulfill all justce, since it is required of the Laws of the Church that we should confess at lleast once a year.

 

[TULIPed]

It is irrelevant how much credit I do or do not “give myself” with regards to the process of my salvation.

Perhaps. As for me, I give myself no credit whatsoever for my salvation. It’s all Him - in spite of me. Like the song says:

“In Christ alone my hope is found,
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid Ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm.”

I know - without a doubt - that I had nothing to do with overcoming the really insidious things done, and left undone in my life. In fact, the harder I tried to change on my own, the deeper those thorns seemed to dig.

For me - the only explanation for change in my life is our King’s love and mercy. He’s got a lot of work left to do, but as I look back on my life, I’m excited to see the work - His work - that’s been done.

Yes, you guys would say I had to be “open” to Him. I had to choose to surrender. I would say that even those things were of His doing, thank God. In any case, I think we Reformed Protestants and you Catholics agree on much more than we disagree on. I’ve read your stuff - have a look at ours and judge for yourself

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . . .

As for me, I give myself no credit whatsoever for my salvation. It’s all Him . . . .

Here illustrated, is that same false dichotomy so deeply engrained in the Protestant mindset. At least it was in the Baptist fellowship that I grew up with and so many other Bible-only Christians.

It is a false dichotomy that implicitly states . . . .

Either Christ exclusively saves you. . . . Or . . . .

YOU save you.

And Catholics assert the latter. Catholics assert they EARN their way to Heaven.

And it is phony.

And as long as you guys keep arguing against that straw man, you will keep “winning” your argument in your mind.

But you will not posess the full Gospel regarding justification, nor will you understand Catholic teaching.

Catholic teaching says our salvation is a moment followed by a process. A lifelong process.
And our initial salvation comes exclusively from the stict merit of Jesus Christ on Calvary. Jesus Christ who is infinite (so He CAN offer an INFINITE sacrifice to an INFINITE God)

Blessed be Jesus Christ true God and true Man.

This is not EARNED with faith or works.

These graces are gratuitously preveniently GIVEN.

And once we accept and respond by being born of water and the Spirit, we have the TRINITARIAN life dwelling in a special way within us.

We have became partakers of the Divine nature IN CHRIST.

When THAT occurs . . . we MUST respond.
We must bear fruit that will last.
We must earn interest on the talents we were GIVEN by the Master.
We MUST do good to the “least of these” and in so DOING, we do it to Christ.

And if we don’t, despite calling Jesus our “Lord”, we will be sending ourselves off for eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And incomplete theology that denies these truths
along with mischaracterizing Catholic teaching, won’t make that necessity of working WITH Christ and IN Christ any less real.

 

[TULIPed]

It is a false dichotomy that implicitly states . . . .

I only speak for myself. I know plenty of Catholics (more than a few are my family!) who love Jesus, (and even call him their Lord ). How do I know they love Jesus you ask? I watch what they do. And
not a one has ever asserted that they “earn their way to heaven.” (Reading your Catechism helps me understand what you believe as well.) My apologies if my writing implied that assertion about what you believe. I didn’t mean for it to do so.

I can only testify about what I’ve experienced in my life. We can agree to disagree on how I view the way Christ has worked in my life.

In spite of that, you’re absolutely correct about one thing. I talk a way better game than I act, God forgive me. However, I’m confident that He who began a good work in me will continue until the day of Christ.

 

[Cathoholic]

TULIPed . . .

not a one (Catholic Christian) has ever asserted that they “earn their way to heaven.” (Reading your Catechism helps me understand what you believe as well.)

(Catholic Christian) above by me added for context.

TULIPed. Your comments, as usual, are tremendous.

But with statements like this . . .

As for me, I give myself no credit whatsoever for my salvation. It’s all Him . . . .

Even though you get it right on the Catholic view, lurkers can easily come here to read and assume . . .

But apparently those Catholics DO credit themselves.

And even that would be fine taken in the correct context (WITH Christ and AFTER I have undeservedly and unearned, become a “partaker of the Divine nature”).

It is His Divine power that grants to US, all things that pertain to life. And not merely “some things” that pertain MERELY ONLY to “life” in this world, but ALL things in that sphere.

2nd PETER 1:3-4 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

But justification is too difficult an issue to leave that unchecked in a platform where potentially confused lurkers read.

NOT 2nd PETER 3:15-17 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of faithless men and lose your own stability.

St. Peter COULD have said that and it would have been correct. But he didn’t.

St. Peter emphasized a different dimension about these false teachers. He emphasized that they are lawLESS.

Think about that the next time your preacher tells you there are now no laws that pertain to our salvation. The next time they tell you now in the New Covenant, there are NO LAWS
at least that pertain in necessity to your justification.

2nd PETER 3:15-17 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand,
beware lest you be carried away with the error of LAWLESS men and lose your own stability.

 

[lanman87]

And we’re all God’s children

I disagree with that statement.

Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[h] Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”[i] 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children
Romans 8:15-16

Only those who received God’s Spirit are adopted and affirms we are God’s children.

Those we are not adopted as his own children are the children of wrath

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Eph 2:1-3

 

[lanman87]

But, let’s say the prodigal had never returned? The prodigal would have condemned himself to hell. For eternity. God didn’t send him there. He went there voluntarily.

We all return to God the Father, either as and act of repentance or by entering into His presence at death. I think it is possible that he welcomes all who have been born again by His Spirit (His Children) into his presence the same way the father welcomed the prodigal who returned.

I think it is very possible that when the Prodigal Christian dies they walk into the presence of God weeping because they finally understand the cost of the Grace that was given to them. And God tells them He loves them and that their battle with sin is over.

 

[lanman87]

That means it is PROVIDED YOU DO something (at least in some of the cases here in 1st John).

1st John has 23 “IFs” (if I recall correctly - but in all fairness I did not look it up again this time so the number may be different).

I want you to go back to 1st John and include some of those “ifs” contextually that precede the verse you used and then we will go deeper.

Yes there a lot of “if’s”. Those “if’s” are evidence that we are in Christ. If we look at our life and we are seeking to do those “if’s” that shows God’s Spirit is fruitful and active in our life then we can “Know we have eternal life”.

If we look at our life and we are not doing the “if’s” (loving our brother and so on) then we have no assurance we have eternal life.

But it is not the “if’s” that give us eternal life (eternal life is a gift), it is the reason we do the “if’s”. That is faith and trust in Christ.

If look at my life and the work of the Spirit is displayed in how I live my life and serve God and serve others then I can know I have eternal life. If two years from now I’m steeped in sin, no longer care about God, and refuse to repent then I can know longer know that I have eternal life. Because the evidence is no longer affirming that I have received the gift of eternal life.

But yes, it is possible for me to know, at any given moment, that I have eternal life. Otherwise John is a liar.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . .

Those “if’s” are evidence that we are in Christ.

Not if you mean MERELY evidence they are not.

We still have a free will, and some people choose, by their own volition to take themselves out of the Vine (Jesus Christ) that they were in.

If we look at our life and we are not doing the “if’s” (loving our brother and so on) then we have no assurance we have eternal life.

Forget about their “assurance” for a moment.

If they later decide to refuse to DO these things do they still HAVE Eternal Life?
(Irrespective of their mere feelings.)

So what happens when someone who was in Christ and has faith to proverbially move mountains, decides to no longer bear fruit?

(You know . . . . I have been asking the same questions over dozens of posts and I still have not gotten a straight answer.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . .

But it is not the “if’s” that give us eternal life (eternal life is a gift), it is the reason we do the “if’s”. That is faith and trust in Christ.

So I could say the same thing about “faith”.

Does “faith” give us eternal life?

And why bother with “trust”? Isn’t “faith” enough?

 

[C.Longinus]

So I could say the same thing about “faith”.

Does “faith” give us eternal life?

And why bother with “trust”? Isn’t “faith” enough?

I’m gonna answer for @lanman87 and say that faith is synonymous with trust.

 

[Cathoholic]

C.Longinus

Welcome to CAF C.Longinus.

C.Longinus . . . .

I’m gonna answer for @lanman87 and say that faith is synonymous with trust.

Fair enough.

Now I will await Ianman87’s response and then address your reply.

Thanks for posting it. (Actually it is just what I expected to hear from Ianman too. But I will wait and see what Ian says.)