Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[Cathoholic]

SyCarl . . . .

If they refuse to forgive someone they would not have true faith to start with or it is no longer a true faith.

How could people have God as their “Father” then? And where in Scripture are you drawing such either/or teachings from in this sphere?

SyCarl . . .

But forgiving someone else’s sins is part of sanctification not justification.

Then WHY would Jesus say if you do not fogive your brother who sins against you, neither will your Heavenly Father forgive your sins?

 

[Cathoholic]

SyCarl . . .

Works show our faith and follow it but they don’t justify us before God.

Some works don’t.
Some works do.

What verses do you think teach ALL works are divorced from justification?

 

[De_Maria]

This comes from Catholics and Protestants having different understanding of what justification means. Catholics give a wider meaning to it than Protestants who break things down into regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification. All these are viewed as part of salvation

That’s strange. Because when we say that salvation is a lifellong process, Protestants deny this and claim that salvation is a one time event.

Now, you’re saying that WE focus on justification and therefore miss the Protestant idea that salvation has many parts, some of which, like sanctification, are life long events. Am I correct?

By the way, without infusing grace, how is transformation brought about? Do you have your own grace within you which transforms you? Because impute does not mean impart. It means “to judge”.

 

[Johan]

Do those who walk in the newness of the Spirit transgress the written commands?

What written commands are you talking about? To my knowledge, Catholics and many Evangelicals do not, for example, adhere to the Sabbath command or the dietary commands of the Torah. So even those who claim that we are still subject to the OT law have reduced it to a very narrow set of commands. If you wonder if those who walk in the newness of the Spirit are still sinning, the answer is of course “yes”. And that observation is the reason why Catholics are supposed to confess their sins on a regular basis.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

As always, the context is essential for the understanding of a verse:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Ro 8:1-4)

The righteousness that the Law requires is fulfilled in us precisely because Christ died for our sins in order to purify us (cf. 2 Co 5:21).

and yet Protestants claim that they are saved and are guaranteed to go to heaven. Have you not heard that nothing impure will enter there?

Indeed, and I have also heard that Christ is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world (John 1:29), whose blood purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7), and who perfected us once and for all by His sacrifice (Heb 10:14). Righteous and pure in Him, wretched sinners by ourselves. Simul justus et peccator.

But if you read the very next verse, you’ll see that many have died without committing sin.

Not at all. They sinned indeed, but not by transgressing an explicit command like Adam did.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro 5:12)

 

[lanman87]

Of course, we view that differently. The proof is in Heb 11. Did any of them keep the Mosaic Law perfectly. They are all named and listed there, the heroes of the Old Testament. Name one that kept the Law perfectly.

You are correct. I think what Paul was doing was speaking to them about their perception. Judaism in the 1st Century was very legalistic. The Pharisees taught a very strict interpretation of the law and that the only way to be justified was by keeping that law.

In Romans 3:20 he shoots that down completely. He turns the understanding of “the Law” upside down. It goes from being something that Justifies (in their perception) to be something that only has the ability to show us when we fail.

If we go further into Chapter 4 Paul talks about Abraham.

13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, ESV

Even though the Jews had comes to believe that following the law was how they were justified Paul sets them straight and tells them that it really depends on faith and it always has.

Here is a good explanation of how the Jews were saved before Christ.

 

[lanman87]

YES. In the Sacraments. Notice that you said, it’s not just the Jews that are justified by faith. In other words, the Jewish converts thought they were somehow better than the Gentiles because of their previous Jewish faith. But now, all are justified by faith

I believe this is where we disagree…

24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

I consider eternal life (Romans 6:23), salvation (Eph 2:8-9) , justification (Romans 3:24), righteousness (Romans 5:17), as to be a gift from God. Gifts aren’t something you merit, they are something freely given and freely received without condition. If it becomes conditional then it is either a wage or a reward, and not a gift. The way we freely receive this gift is by faith, which is an internal change of heart and not an external action.

You seem to be saying that Sacraments = Faith. And that in Romans 3:22 when Paul says

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

What he is really saying is we are made right with God by believing in God and participating and keeping the sacraments.

Is this what you are saying or am I misunderstanding?

 

[TULIPed]

Now you seem to be affirming the transformative power of Christ.

I do. Mainly because I’ve experienced it personally in a very real, intimate and powerful way. Thank God.

Having said that, my personal theology (and Reformed Theology) is best summarized in the (whole) Westminster and Helvetic Confessions - just like yours, I would venture to guess - is best summarized in the (whole) RCC.

If you take just one part of the RCC, you don’t get the whole idea, no? I’ll pull out one part of the WCF to show it’s addressed. (All of the Reformed confessions are extensively cross referenced to scripture btw - just like the RCC.)

"Chapter 13
Of Sanctification

1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

 

[fhansen]

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Roman 3:23-16 NLT

Wow, that NLT sure takes some liberties with its translation.

That is exactly the point. He was telling them you can’t justify yourself no matter how good you are or how much effort you put into following the Mosaic law. Because you are still a sinner and all the law really does is show you the standard that you aren’t meeting.

Well, if we’re good then we’d already be just, but we sure cannot be just with our own efforts in following the law. Rom 2 says we’ll be judged by the law. Rom 3 talks about a righteousness that doesn’t come from the law. Then Rom 7 tells us the law is right. And Rom 13 tells us that love fulfills the law. And that brings us full circle back to Rom 2.

Yes, we’ll be judged by the law, because it’s right. But that righteousness cannot come by mere observance of the law, it comes by our love. And love does not live in fallen man to any sufficient degree or quality because that love/righteousness/justice comes only by communion with God, ‘apart from whom we can do nothing’. And that communion is established by faith, in response to grace, God’s love in action. “We love Him because He first loved us.” We love because of Him. Then our justice, our righteousness, our justification, is complete.

And He desires it to be complete, for us to be perfect, but He’s not expecting us to necessarily remain free from all sin, only that we “invest” and grow in the grace and righteousness we’re given as time and opportunities allow in our life. We can’t be sitting still or sliding backwards in the overall scheme of things; we repent if necessary and then pick up our cross and follow again. Again, as the Church teaches, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Yes, man still has this obligation, this obligation to be righteous, but it can only be realized as we enter communion with God, the very relationship that Adam denied and dismissed. Because man’s righteousness, who he was made to be, comes only from God. Otherwise we’re hamstrung, or like some poor soul dying of thirst in the desert and foolishly too proud to admit he needs help.This obligation, to respond to God and walk with Him, is the basis of our righteousness, and a matter of the will responding to and aligning with God’s will as He calls and graces us-and we work out our salvation with Him.

 

[Johan]

In that very same book, St. John says that it is possiblle for us to live without commtting sin.

John does not speak of sinlessness in terms of possibility, but of actuality. He does not say “whoever abides in Him may not sin”, but “no one who abides in Him sins”. This means that every Christian is sinless, according to John. Since it stands clear that we are still sinning, it follows that John is reasoning in terms of imputation: our sins are no longer credited against us. For that reason Paul writes:

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” (Ro 4:6–8)

And Jesus says, “be perfect as my Father is perfect”. Jesus would not lie to us.

A command does not have a truth value, i.e., it is neither true nor false. But you might say that Jesus is not expecting the impossible of His people. However, we are weak but His power is perfected in weakness (2 Cor 12:9). In fact, He perfected us by His sacrifice once and for all (Heb. 10:14).

Because most of us are still making our faith perfect in good works.

James 2:22

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works , and by works was faith made perfect ?

It should be noted that Abraham’s faith was perfected by one single work (the offering of Isaac). James does not present this perfection as a process, but something that happens in an instant.

We confess our sins until that time when we no longer commit sins.

And when do you know that you are sinless? Some kind of gut feeling (“I have nothing more to confess”)?

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

Just saying…

 

[TULIPed]

Since it stands clear that we are still sinning, it follows that John is reasoning in terms of imputation: our sins are no longer credited against us.

Now this makes a Reformed heart happy

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but I can’t help thinking Isaiah is turning over in his grave, with his verse 5:20 rolling around in his head.

 

[SyCarl]

I should have said a pattern of not forgiving would indicate a lack of faith but we cannot judge that. Christians do sin and are forgiven.

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
(1Jn 3:9-10)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:8-9)

Jesus also tells us that if your brother sins against you and doesn’t listen then he is to treated as a Gentile and a tax collector.

A pattern of not forgiving others would again be evidence that you do not have a true faith and if you lose faith you are no longer justified. But again God is the judge of that.

 

[SyCarl]

What I am saying is that Catholics and Protestants use terms differently. To Catholics justification is a lifelong process because they include more in justification. However salvation is a lifelong process because it includes sanctification which is a lifelong process. I would say that this would even be the case with those who preach once saved always saved only they would say that if someone does not persevere that they never had true saving faith and were not saved in the first place.

With respect to the transformation God does it by enlightening our minds and replacing our hearts of stone with a heart of flesh but we do not become completely righteous in this life. Thus in this life Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. This is another example of why our works do not merit anything because they are only acceptable to God when they are seen through Christ’s righteousness.

 

[SyCarl]

As I have said justification is being define differently with Protestants essentially limiting it to a declaration of not guilty but if you look at regeneration, justification and sanctification together I do not think we differ a lot except with respect to whether our works merit anything.

Jesus tells us:

“Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”
(Luk 17:7-10)

Paul also tells us that works are not part of justification.

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Rom 3:28)

and

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
(Rom 4:1-6)

and

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
(Rom 11:6)

Paul is clearly referring to more than just circumcision and dietary laws. This is clear by how he talks about the Jews relying on the law.

But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.
(Rom 2:17-23)

 

[C.Longinus]

John does not speak of sinlessness in terms of possibility, but of actuality .

Then part two of 1 John 2:1 doesn’t mean anything.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

And this interpretation also goes against this verse:
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory in great joy,

 

[C.Longinus]

Paul also tells us that works are not part of justification.

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Rom 3:28)

He’s talking about the Torah, not about good works in general.

 

[De_Maria]

You are correct. I think what Paul was doing was speaking to them about their perception. Judaism in the 1st Century was very legalistic. The Pharisees taught a very strict interpretation of the law and that the only way to be justified was by keeping that law.

Agreed. But remember, that doing the Law was synonymous with doing good works. If you look in the Old Testament, God wanted the Israelites to help one another. If you see your neighbor struggling with his ox, etc. etc.

In Romans 3:20 he shoots that down completely. He turns the understanding of “the Law” upside down. It goes from being something that Justifies (in their perception) to be something that only has the ability to show us when we fail.

Agreed. But the necessity of keeping the Law is not removed.

If we go further into Chapter 4 Paul talks about Abraham.

13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Ok, I want to address this because LOTS of Protestants misunderstand this verse. They think that St. Paul is saying that there was no sin before the Law was established and given to the Jews. But St. Paul is not writing that from God’s point of view. He is writing it from the human point of view. Before there was the Law, people didn’t know that there was sin. However, we know that God punished sins before the Law because of the Flood, Pharaoh drowned and his first born killed and because of Sodom and Gomorrah and many, many other instances where God punished sins.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, ESV

This is where you can see that St. Paul is speaking to converts from Judaism and from the Gentiles. And, although you may not recognize it, he is speaking of the grace which is bestowed on us, in the Sacraments.

Even though the Jews had comes to believe that following the law was how they were justified Paul sets them straight and tells them that it really depends on faith and it always has.

Agreed. Because, faith produces good works. Those who followed the Commandments did it because of their faith in God.

 

[De_Maria]

I believe this is where we disagree…

24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith .

I consider eternal life (Romans 6:23), salvation (Eph 2:8-9) , justification (Romans 3:24), righteousness (Romans 5:17), as to be a gift from God. Gifts aren’t something you merit, they are something freely given and freely received without condition.

You’re right. We disagree. There are certain gifts which we do merit. These are they. For example:

Parents give their children gifts if they pass with A’s.
Donors give people gifts, such as scholarships, if they run fast in track, play good football, or get high scores in science.

These are examples of conditional gifts. God gives us the gift of eternal life, if we obey His Son.

If it becomes conditional then it is either a wage or a reward, and not a gift. The way we freely receive this gift is by faith, which is an internal change of heart and not an external action.

Even that’s a condition. You just don’t like other conditions. You aren’t saying that no conditions are allowed. You are saying that the only condition you recognize, is faith.

You seem to be saying that Sacraments = Faith.

No. Sacraments are the operations of God. We must have and express our faith in God, when we submit to His Sacraments.

And that in Romans 3:22 when Paul says

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

What he is really saying is we are made right with God by believing in God and participating and keeping the sacraments.

Yes. But don’t forget the Commandments. A person who has not converted, i.e. turned to God in faith, and changed his life in accordance with God’s word, should not approach the Sacraments. See Mark 16:16, He who believes not, will be condemned.

Is this what you are saying or am I misunderstanding?

Basically, if you’ve factored in the Commandments. If I could put this in terms of Rom 2:13. Those who keep the Commandments are justified in the Sacraments. That’s what I’m saying.

 

[De_Maria]

What written commands are you talking about? …

Come on. Let’s stay in the spirit of the discussion. We’ve been discussing this Law:

1 John 3:4
Whosever committeth sin transgresseth also the law : for sin is the transgression of the law .

Would someone who walks in the Spirit, transgress that Law?

As always, the context is essential for the understanding of a verse:

The righteousness that the Law requires is fulfilled in us precisely because Christ died for our sins in order to purify us (cf. 2 Co 5:21).

Are you saying that you can no longer sin?
Or that any sin you commit will not be counted against you?
Or something else?

Indeed, and I have also heard that Christ is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world (John 1:29), whose blood purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7), and who perfected us once and for all by His sacrifice (Heb 10:14). Righteous and pure in Him, wretched sinners by ourselves. Simul justus et peccator.

With others on this forum, I’ve been discussing the transformative nature of grace. Are you saying that you don’t believe that grace transforms you?

Not at all. They sinned indeed, but not by transgressing an explicit command like Adam did.

Not at all. Babies in the womb had not heard any such command. And many of them died. So did many deaf people and many others who may have heard but did not understand. Thus, many died who never sinned or even had the opportunity to sin.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro 5:12)

Enoch and Elijah did not die. Did they sin?

And, as I said before, many people did not even have the opportunity to sin and yet died. So, we need another explanation for the “all” in that sentence. The only explanation can be that St. Paul meant it in general, not all as in everyone without exception.

 

[fhansen]

I’m not sure why people object to the idea that God wants us…right. And He’s been patiently working on that endeavor since Eden. He didn’t create us to be sinners after all. Man’s problem isn’t that he needs to learn that he’s a hopeless worthless wretch; rather man’s problem is that he needs to learn that he’s totally hopeless without God. Adam thought otherwise.

Man will never control himself in the moral sphere unless he’s partnered with the only One who could ever accomplish that in him. And man is obligated to this righteousness, to being who he was created to be, and his first obligation in attaining this is submission to God, which comes about as man comes to know, and therefore love, Him. This is why the ten commandments, and the greatest commandments, are structured as they are. And the beginning of this vital relationship that man was made for is faith, prompted by grace.