Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[De_Maria]

Cathoholic:

Now you seem to be affirming the transformative power of Christ.

I do. Mainly because I’ve experienced it personally in a very real, intimate and powerful way. Thank God.

Having said that, my personal theology (and Reformed Theology) is best summarized in the (whole) Westminster and Helvetic Confessions - just like yours, I would venture to guess - is best summarized in the (whole) RCC.

If you take just one part of the RCC, you don’t get the whole idea, no? I’ll pull out one part of the WCF to show it’s addressed. (All of the Reformed confessions are extensively cross referenced to scripture btw - just like the RCC.)

"Chapter 13
Of Sanctification

1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

We don’t understand the WCF as well as you do, so you’l have to explain some apparent contradictions within it.

How does this happen without infused grace? We could understand this if all this saving grace comes from God. But imputed does not mean imparted and forensic justification means only judged.

 

[TULIPed]

We don’t understand the WCF as well as you do, so you’l have to explain some apparent contradictions within it.

I have a sneaking suspicion thou dost protest too much…#cavemanlawyer

In any case, there are plenty of resources - far better than yours truly - to learn about our views on imputed righteousness. Here’s a really good one:

Faith and the Imputation of Righteousness | Desiring God

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

We don’t understand the WCF as well as you do, so you’l have to explain some apparent contradictions within it.

I have a sneaking suspicion thou dost protest too much…#cavemanlawyer

In any case, there are plenty of resources - far better than yours truly - to learn about our views on imputed righteousness. Here’s a really good one:

Faith and the Imputation of Righteousness | Desiring God

Its just telling me the same thing. But, imputation, does not mean “impart” or “infuse”.

Here’s the thing. When God said, “Abram believed and it was imputed to him as righteousness”. That means, to us, that God saw his faith and judged him righteous. In other words, “God said, Abram is faithful because he’s righteous.”

But, it seems to me that a Protestant sees that verse and says, “God saw his faith and rewarded him with righteousness.”

Am I right?

 

[lanman87]

Parents give their children gifts if they pass with A’s.
Donors give people gifts, such as scholarships, if they run fast in track, play good football, or get high scores in science.

These are examples of conditional gifts. God gives us the gift of eternal life, if we obey His Son.

Well, in the scenario you are giving about scholarships and so forth the person giving the gifts sets the conditions. God’s condition, according the Scriptures, for receiving God’s gifts is faith. The Scriptures tell of no other way to receive these gifts. They do tell us over and over again the consequences of receiving these gifts (Loving God and Loving others) and what evidences there are that someone has received these gifts (Faith working through love and the obedience of faith) and the evidences that someone has not received these gift (a sinful lifestyle without any concern for God and His standards).

I liken it to this. A guy walks up to you in the mall and tells you that he has a free gift of a diamond ring for you. The first thing you say is “What is the catch” and he says, “There is no catch”. So you ask, “you mean I don’t have to buy anything.” He says No. So you say, “I don’t have to sign anything”. He says No. So you ask, “You mean I don’t have to eat bugs or do something gross”. The guy says, “No, it is 100% free all you’ve got to do is accept it”. So you accept the ring and find that it is the most precious diamond in the world.

That is how God gives us His gifts. The are 100% free and all we have to do is accept them and the Bible tells us that the way to accept them is by faith. That is, by trusting in and believing in Christ. But once we accept these gifts they become so precious to us that we do everything we can to take care of the gifts and keep them safe. Plus we are so excited about the gifts that we want to tell others about these gifts and tell them that all the have to do to get these same precious gifts is accept the gifts from the gift giver… They don’t have to jump through any hoops or wash someones car or do anything except accept the gifts. We even take them to the man who has given us the gifts and He tells them the same thing. “Just accept the gift I have for you”.

 

[C.Longinus]

These are examples of conditional gifts. God gives us the gift of eternal life, if we obey His Son.

To phrase it better, eternal life is free for those who believe. However it’s a gift we can lose by unrepented sin.

 

[C.Longinus]

I feel like your scenario describes salvation in light of Trent better that @De_Maria’s. Except for the OSAS part.

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the problem with the Protestant interpretation: Man was made in the image and likeness of God. What God made in Genesis He called good. So: It follows that Man was made good; but fell into sin by choice. Choice; not hopeless slavery to the devil’s commands. The devil doesn’t command though. Certainly, the devil tempts, lies, conjoles and manipulates; but certainly not command.

Thus, men are not slaves, helpless and absolute wretches; of the devil.

 

[SyCarl]

Man was made good and by his own choice fell. After this the fallen nature effectively prevents man from doing anything good in a God pleasing sense.

Paul says:

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Rom 8:5-8)

With out God’s grace we cannot will good.

Augustine writes:

It is not, therefore, true, as some affirm that we say, and as that correspondent of yours ventures moreover to write, that “all are forced into sin,” as if they were unwilling, “by the necessity of their flesh;” but if they are already of the age to use the choice of their own mind, they are both retained in sin by their own will, and by their own will are hurried along from sin to sin. For even he who persuades and deceives does not act in them, except that they may commit sin by their will, either by ignorance of the truth or by delight in iniquity, or by both evils,—as well of blindness as of weakness. But this will, which is free in evil things because it takes pleasure in evil, is not free in good things, for the reason that it has not been made free. Nor can a man will any good thing unless he is aided by Him who cannot will evil,—that is, by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. For “everything which is not of faith is sin.

(Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Chapter 7)
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xviii.iii.vii.html

We still have free will but because of our fallen nature we cannot choose good.

If a hungry tiger is given a pile of hay and a pile of fresh meat. The tiger can choose either of these but because its nature it will always choose the meat.

The grace can be the Calvinist’s “irresistible grace” or the Arminian’s “prevenient grace”.

 

[Michael16]

I see nothing in your quote of Saint Paul that precludes man from choosing to set his mind on things of the spirit.

As for Saint Augustine, I say that he has a yes/no statement. It seems he says early in the passage that yes, there’s free will that can be set on things of evil and the flesh and then can be set on things of the spirit; whereas later on in the passage he seems to say that the will is set irreparably on evil unless aided by God.

Here’s a possible solution: In Saint Paul, I suggest that the will can be freely set on things of the spirit. But, as I’ve seen in my own experience; perseverance in good is harder than perseverance in evil. Grace is required to overcome concupiscence; once the will is set on things of the spirit.

As for Saint Augustine, I suggest a similar solution in order to preserve Saint Augustine from self contradiction. The will can be set on good; but requires God’s grace to overcome concupiscence.

 

[C.Longinus]

If a hungry tiger is given a pile of hay and a pile of fresh meat. The tiger can choose either of these but because its nature it will always choose the meat.

What about the flood?

 

[Michael16]

Here’s some illustrations to further flesh out my concept.

I follow Ignatian spirituality. In this spirituality, there is the discernment of spirits. To best illustrate this concept; do you remember the shoulder angel and shoulder devil in old American cartoons? Well, it’s a good way to illustrate Ignatian discernment of spirits.

Essentially, in each decision there are competing spirits: A good and a bad. The good spirit inclines me to what God would will for me and the bad inclines me to what the devil would will for me. I, in this spiritual system; have the choice between the good and the bad.

Over time and with practice, someone following the Ignatian way of proceeding trains and habituates the will toward the movement of the good spirit to where deciding upon the good spirit’s inclination becomes reflexive and natural.

For someone habituated to following the inclinations of the bad spirit, it takes great effort and prayer to overcome such a habituation.

However: Saint Ignatius de Loyola had written that not everyone is automatically inclined to the bad spirit. Some are naturally inclined to the good spirit; look at saints like Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint Maria Goretti and Saint Therese of Lisieux for instance. I certainly was inclined to the good spirit before I fell into witchcraft and sexual sins in my twenties and early thirties.

I had to carefully retrain my will to the good spirit in cooperation with God’s grace.

But: It’s doable according to Saint Ignatius de Loyola; the founder of the Society of Jesus. My favorite human saint other than Our Lady.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, in the scenario you are giving about scholarships and so forth the person giving the gifts sets the conditions. God’s condition, according the Scriptures, for receiving God’s gifts is faith. The Scriptures tell of no other way to receive these gifts. They do tell us over and over again the consequences of receiving these gifts (Loving God and Loving others) and what evidences there are that someone has received these gifts (Faith working through love and the obedience of faith)…

Well, let’s go,for instance, to Matt 7:21

Can you tie that in to what you’ve said, above?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The condition here seems to be “doing the will of God”.

Also, another example:

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This doesn’t heaven or eternal life, but logically, if God doesn’t forgive our sins, we won’t be perfected and won’t enter heaven.

And then:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

The condition there is that we suffer with Christ.

And finally:

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

There are many exmples, throughout Scripture, where conditions in addition to faith, are expressed.

2 Pet 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; …10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

These are examples of conditional gifts. God gives us the gift of eternal life, if we obey His Son.

To phrase it better, eternal life is free for those who believe. However it’s a gift we can lose by unrepented sin.

I don’t think that’s better phrasing at all. Scripture is clear that one has to respond to faith and do the will of God before one receives the promise.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

 

[De_Maria]

I feel like your scenario describes salvation in light of Trent better that @De_Maria’s. Except for the OSAS part.

Really? Let’s go over Trent and see:

COUNCIL OF TRENT VI
CHAPTER VI

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.

Our justification is in Baptism. Notice what the conditions are before Baptism.

Please show me the conditionless scenario that you speak of in Trent.

 

[C.Longinus]

Okay:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

 

[C.Longinus]

I don’t think that’s better phrasing at all. Scripture is clear that one has to respond to faith and do the will of God before one receives the promise.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

In the context of this letter, the inspired author is writing to believers who are being tested in persecution, so that verse doesn’t mean what you’re trying to make it mean.

 

[De_Maria]

Okay:

Ok, what? Ianman and I are discussing conditions for justification. Iaman says the only condition is faith. I say that the Catholic Church Teaches that we have to cooperate with grace and keep the Commandments. I highlighted the verse from Trent which says so. Here it is again:

COUNCIL OF TRENT VI
CHAPTER VI

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.

These canons you provided do not address that issue. Or if they do, show me how. Below is the anathema which supports my statement.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

The Catholic Church Teaches conditional justification and salvation.

Of course, if there’s anything which I said, whether its this topic or any other, which you think contradicts Trent, feel free to bring it up.

In the context of this letter, the inspired author is writing to believers who are being tested in persecution, so that verse doesn’t mean what you’re trying to make it mean.

I’m afraid you’ll have to show more than a “say so” statement to make that point. The text is perfectly clear.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

We have to do the will of God before we receive the promise. This is in line with other Scriptures:

Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)​

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[De_Maria]

I responded to this before, I made a different point there, [11h]

I’d like to make a separate point, below.

Well, in the scenario you are giving about scholarships and so forth the person giving the gifts sets the conditions. God’s condition, according the Scriptures, for receiving God’s gifts is faith.

So, there is a condition. It is not, as you say, a gift without any conditions.
And in so saying, you disprove the idea that a gift can’t have any conditions.

So, the difference between you and I is that salvation is a gift with one condition, faith.

Whereas, we consider it a gift with several conditions. Faith, works, suffering, repentance, love, etc. We still consider it a free gift, because none of the conditions are even worth mentioning when compared to the value of the gift.

Philippians 3:8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung , that I may win Christ,

The Scriptures tell of no other way to receive these gifts. They do tell us over and over again the consequences of receiving these gifts (Loving God and Loving others) …

I addressed this in my first response, I hope you gothere and answer that, as well.

 

[lanman87]

Well, let’s go,for instance, to Matt 7:21

Can you tie that in to what you’ve said, above?

Well, for starters you didn’t finish the quote

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God,[d] and God[e] in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. 1 John 3:23-24

What is the will of the Father? It is that we know the Son. Those mighty works done in His name didn’t mean and thing. Because they did not know the Son. There didn’t have a saving faith.

I believe Paul said that Justification is a gift “received by faith” is because Paul understands that faith produces obedience. Because faith in a change of heart and affections and we all naturally follow our affections. We spend our time and effort on things that are most important to us. If Christ is most important to us then we will follow Him and seek to please and serve Him.

Spurgeon put it this way:

Oh, for obedience! It has been supposed by many ill-instructed people that the doctrine of justification by faith is opposed to the teaching of good works, or obedience. There is no truth in the supposition. We preach the obedience of faith. Faith is the fountain, the foundation, and the fosterer of obedience. Men obey not God till they believe him. We preach faith in order that men may be brought to obedience. To disbelieve is to disobey.

And later in the same sermon…

I preach to you, at this time, obedience-absolute obedience to the Lord God; but I preach the obedience of a child, not the obedience of a slave; the obedience of love, not of terror; the obedience of faith, not of dread. I shall urge you, as God shall help me, in order that you may come at this obedience, that you should seek after stronger faith-“For by faith Abraham obeyed.” In every case where the father of the faithful obeyed, it was the result of his faith; and in every case in which you and I shall render true obedience, it will be the product of our faith.

Here is the entire sermon if you would like to read it. Note to add: This is a really good read if you are struggling to understand why we non-Catholic Christian seek to obey and do works of love.

 

[C.Longinus]

I’m afraid you’ll have to show more than a “say so” statement to make that point. The text is perfectly clear.

Okay.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The reason for its composition is probably to be found in the conditions existing in the Jewish Christian Church at Jerusalem. The faith of the Church might fall into great danger through continued persecution by the Jews, who had put James, the head of the community to a violent death. Precisely at this period the services in the temple were celebrated with great pomp, as under Albinus (62-64) the magnificent building was completed, while the Christian community had to struggle with extreme poverty. The national movement which began shortly before the outbreak of the last Jewish war would increase the danger. These circumstances might lead the Apostle to write the letter.

So it’s not a kergymatic document as it is a document encouraging the Christians to persevere in their faith.