Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

[Debora123]

For goodness sakes – we just got a new Pope – and the pouncing has begun to find some “fault”.

Agreed. Not sure why anyone would care what he’s wearing. Aren’t there more pressing issues to worry about?

 

[Cojuanco]

Pope Francis was not wearing a red mozzetta and there was no coat of arms…all was white…

Any thoughts?

Well, the Coat of Arms bit is probably justifiable that he’s been Pope for about a day. Presumably once everything settles down we’ll see it, if he doesn’t simply repurpose his archdiocesan arms.

 

[R_C]

Well, the Coat of Arms bit is probably justifiable that he’s been Pope for about a day. Presumably once everything settles down we’ll see it, if he doesn’t simply repurpose his archdiocesan arms.

Thanks

 

[mburn16]

Someone has already done a rendering of what his coat of arms MAY look like if he reverts to the traditional design (Can’t speak about the Miter or Tiara, but the shield shape could be accurate - its traditional for Italian families):

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQg7ulgbN1rbrgfcwu6H8mFelQ-OvKSvCZ2ytHQ1Gr4MAG8iwPP

 

[tradcathboy]

Pope Francis was not wearing a red mozzetta and there was no coat of arms…all was white…

Any thoughts?

They don’thave time to sow up a new tapestry. It’s actually traditional to have blank coat of arms if I’m not mistaken.

But it was disappointing not to see the dramatics of the Catholic Church on such an amazing day in Church history.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

MODERATOR NOTE

Creating non-existing controversies is a form of instigation and provocation. Anyone doing so will be banned without further warning.

 

[Megan7]

Yes, that is right, it is quite interesting that he put on the Petrine stole only during the Urbi et Orbi. I am very intrigued by his thoughtful actions.

For instance: the stole is a symbol of the Holy Orders, so he put it on during the blessing but preferred not to wear it generically, just like the red mozzetta, perhaps (and probably) as a sign of humbleness and simplicity.

Also for the blessing: he asked for the prayers of the faithful, but he made very sure to clearly define the major difference between the blessing given by a recipient of the Holy Orders and the invocative blessing of the lay faithful. We know that “blessings are categorized into two types: invocative and constitutive. In an invocative blessing, the minister implores the divine favor of God to grant some spiritual or temporal good …] The ordained are the ordinary ministers of blessings, asking God’s help for those people being blessed or dedicating something to a sacred service.” Well, I have honestly never seen this more beautifully and simply expressed as in these few lines by Pope Francis:

This is interesting to me, for his simplicity does not undermine how profound his reasoning appears to be. I think it is wrong to simply ignore or treat with indifference his little choices…he seems to know very well why he does things in a certain way, and to be very careful about them.

Thanks for the post, will read the thread later on. God bless

 

[YoungTradCath]

The mozzetta is choir dress for the Pope. It was rather odd that he chose not to wear that for the Urbi et Orbi. The mozzetta is worn when someone is attending a liturgy, is attending or officiating at a para-liturgical event, and can be worn when baptizing outside of Mass. The mozzetta is not worn to evoke sumptuousness, but because it is just the clothes prescribed for such events, just like clericals of some kind are prescribed for all priests and like a chasuble is always required at Mass. Every cleric has choir dress, even deacons. I expect the mozzetta and stole will be worn for consistories and the like.

The coat of arms was not present because, presumably, Mons. Marini had the old arms ripped off. If you look closely (you can see it even with poor quality shots), the white background itself has also been replaced: it was, up to now, a plain white field, and has been replaced with a white brocade with the crest of the Holy See woven into the fabric. So it is quite clear that the absence of the coat of arms was intentional, so no conspiracy theories needed for this one. In the past it has been the practice to simply use the old arms until such times that the new arms are designed, but it is clear that this time the fact that old ones were ripped off was intentional, so as to replace the background.

 

[Californiac]

Eschewing the mozzetta was a deliberate choice of Pope Francis’

*"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”*

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

 

[aemcpa]

Eschewing the mozzetta was a deliberate choice of Pope Francis’

*"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”*

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

If that quote is accurate, that is disconcerting.

 

[clem456]

If that quote is accurate, that is disconcerting.

See post #25

 

[aemcpa]

See post #25

That notice would apply to the person who posted the quote.

 

[mercytruth]

The mozzetta is choir dress for the Pope. It was rather odd that he chose not to wear that for the Urbi et Orbi. The mozzetta is worn when someone is attending a liturgy, is attending or officiating at a para-liturgical event, and can be worn when baptizing outside of Mass. The mozzetta is not worn to evoke sumptuousness, but because it is just the clothes prescribed for such events, just like clericals of some kind are prescribed for all priests and like a chasuble is always required at Mass. Every cleric has choir dress, even deacons. I expect the mozzetta and stole will be worn for consistories and the like.

The coat of arms was not present because, presumably, Mons. Marini had the old arms ripped off. If you look closely (you can see it even with poor quality shots), the white background itself has also been replaced: it was, up to now, a plain white field, and has been replaced with a white brocade with the crest of the Holy See woven into the fabric. So it is quite clear that the absence of the coat of arms was intentional, so no conspiracy theories needed for this one. In the past it has been the practice to simply use the old arms until such times that the new arms are designed, but it is clear that this time the fact that old ones were ripped off was intentional, so as to replace the background.

According to this source, the Mozzetta is not a liturgical vestment. It is an ecclessiatical garment worn by dignitaries such as the Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops.

newadvent.org/cathen/10624b.htm

Pope John Paul II discontinued the wearing of the red ermine and the white ermine mozzettas. Pope Benedict XVI re-introduced the wearing of them. Taking the name of Pope Francis, one may be able to understand why Pope Francis would not wear ermine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozzetta

God’s peace

 

[Mrs_Sally]

According to this source, the Mozzetta is not a liturgical vestment. It is an ecclessiatical garment worn by dignitaries such as the Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops.

newadvent.org/cathen/10624b.htm

Pope John Paul II discontinued the wearing of the red ermine and the white ermine mozzettas. Pope Benedict XVI re-introduced the wearing of them. Taking the name of Pope Francis, one may be able to understand why Pope Francis would not wear ermine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozzetta

God’s peace

Perhaps Pope Benedict was often chilly and liked the extra warmth. Perhaps Popes JPII and Francis are often over warm and prefer not to wear an extra layer?

 

[mburn16]

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”

I’d be surprised if he actually said this. Not because he might not care for the Mozzetta, but because this kind of a remark would be incredibly disparaging of not only his predecessors (particularly his immediate predecessor), but all of Vatican tradition.

I’m almost wondering whether (assuming he actually said this) the “carnival” he was talking about is the pre-lentan celebration in South American countries…and that foregoing the Mozzetta was an act of lenten simplicity. It would at least make more sense than such a harsh comment.

 

[aemcpa]

According to this source, the Mozzetta is not a liturgical vestment. It is an ecclessiatical garment worn by dignitaries such as the Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops.

newadvent.org/cathen/10624b.htm

Pope John Paul II discontinued the wearing of the red ermine and the white ermine mozzettas. Pope Benedict XVI re-introduced the wearing of them. Taking the name of Pope Francis, one may be able to understand why Pope Francis would not wear ermine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozzetta

God’s peace

He said that it is not a liturgical vestment. Choir dress by definition is not liturgical.

 

[mercytruth]

I’d be surprised if he actually said this. Not because he might not care for the Mozzetta, but because this kind of a remark would be incredibly disparaging of not only his predecessors (particularly his immediate predecessor), but all of Vatican tradition.

I’m almost wondering whether (assuming he actually said this) the “carnival” he was talking about is the pre-lentan celebration in South American countries…and that foregoing the Mozzetta was an act of lenten simplicity. It would at least make more sense than such a harsh comment.

I was thinking the same. In Buenos Aires the last day of their Carnival costume-dressing festival ended on February 28.

 

[mercytruth]

He said that it is not a liturgical vestment. Choir dress by definition is not liturgical.

He also said this:The mozzetta is worn when someone is attending a liturgy…

the implication being that it is a liturgical vestment.

God’s peace be with you.

 

[malphono]

He also said this:The mozzetta is worn when someone is attending a liturgy…

the implication being that it is a liturgical vestment.

Not exactly. The key word is “attending.” The mozetta is certainly not liturgical dress, but it is part of choir dress. When a bishop or priest is “attending” (meaning when he is not the celebrant or concelebrant of) a liturgical service, he should be in choir dress.

 

[mercytruth]

Not exactly. The key word is “attending.” The mozetta is certainly not liturgical dress, but it is part of choir dress. When a bishop or priest is “attending” (meaning when he is not the celebrant or concelebrant of) a liturgical service, he should be in choir dress.

Thank you for that distinction between being an ‘attendant’, and that of being a celebrant, or concelebrant of a liturgical service.

Would you please inform me of what liturgical service was taking place at the time when Pope Francis was not wearing the mozzetta?

God’s peace be with you.