Redeeming Qualities in Same-Sex Relationships

[Charles041]

Did Catholics of the Early Church (1) Know of homosexual orientation and (2) Were they familiar with committed, homosexual relationships of partners of the same status? I think not.

1. I’m pretty sure they determined the orientation was lust, sin, and thus Lucifer.
2. Yeah. They saw pagan Rome.

 

[Thorolfr]

1. I’m pretty sure they determined the orientation was lust, sin, and thus Lucifer.
2. Yeah. They saw pagan Rome.

The Catholic Church does not teach that homosexuality as an orientation is a sin. They only teach that any sexual actions arising from this are a sin.

 

[Mongo]

The words gay and homosexual have meaning on their own, but they are modifiers. They modify other words. Depending on what word you use it to modify it has a slightly different meaning. If it is applied to an individual person it is generally speaking of their sexual desires and who they are attracted to sexually. If you apply it to a relationship it implies a sexual relationship.

 

[Mongo]

The Catholic Church does not teach that homosexuality as an orientation is a sin. They only teach that any sexual actions arising from this are a sin.

You are correct. (I can’t help but think of Chris Farley in billy Madison everytime I use this phrase hahaha).

 

[Rau]

The words gay and homosexual have meaning on their own, but they are modifiers. They modify other words. Depending on what word you use it to modify it has a slightly different meaning. If it is applied to an individual person it is generally speaking of their sexual desires and who they are attracted to sexually. If you apply it to a relationship it implies a sexual relationship.

That’s right. And thus the OP clouds the question at hand whenever he talks about homosexual relationships which might not be sexual relationships.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

A person is married as soon as he/she says “I do.”

Comsummation is not required. Look at Mary and Joseph.

The point I was making earlier was that a gay couple could be IN LOVE* but decide not to have sex. After all, several heterosexual couples’ sex lives often end up dwindling.

Consummation IS required.

Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

Without consummation, a Catholic marriage is invalid. Therefore any couple who intends to NOT have sex…would be entering into an invalid marriage.

A homosexual couple, by extension, cannot consummate a Catholic marriage and therefore cannot be validly married.

Let’s put this to bed…

 

[Thorolfr]

Consummation IS required.

Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

Without consummation, a Catholic marriage is invalid. Therefore any couple who intends to NOT have sex…would be entering into an invalid marriage.

A homosexual couple, by extension, cannot consummate a Catholic marriage and therefore cannot be validly married.

Let’s put this to bed…

But your just admitting that Joseph and Mary were not married since it was not consummated.

 

[Rau]

Consummation IS required.

Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

Without consummation, a Catholic marriage is invalid. Therefore any couple who intends to NOT have sex…would be entering into an invalid marriage.

A homosexual couple, by extension, cannot consummate a Catholic marriage and therefore cannot be validly married.

Let’s put this to bed…

you are off your game today Zolt!

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

The Catholic Church does not teach that homosexuality as an orientation is a sin. They only teach that any sexual actions arising from this are a sin.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is objectively disordered.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are acts of grave depravity.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

But your just admitting that Joseph and Mary were not married since it was not consummated.

I find the inclusion of the Holy Family into this discussion very offensive.

Mary and Joseph were betrothed and validly married under Jewish religious law of the times. It was not uncommon for a woman to pledge and offer her virginity to God and still marry. Joseph accepted this before the betrothal. Mary was a perpetual virgin and Joseph was “her most chaste spouse”.

Oh, BTW…they were one man and one woman…essentially a perfect marriage.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

you are off your game today Zolt!

I know…it’s Sunday

 

[Kurisu35712]

I conceive of love/romance as being more than a specific sexual act; don’t you? I conceive that a homosexual couple could have much more than a friendship – they could desire to be so committed to each other’s needs and want to live together – yet still decide not to have sex. Like hetero couples in their elderly years.

Perhaps we use different definitions for friendship, but I don’t necessarily think that two close friends who are single are not able to do just that. It isn’t customary or traditional, but it also isn’t unheard of. One of my… Great great uncles I believe was married and lived with his wife, and also lived with his best friend from the army until the day they died. My dad considered them both to be relatives.

Furthermore, most married couples in fact do not stop having sex in their elderly years, hence the somewhat disturbingly high rate of STDs among elderly people. Kind of a weird thought, but figured I’d bring it up.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I find the inclusion of the Holy Family into this discussion very offensive.

Mary and Joseph were betrothed and validly married under Jewish religious law of the times. It was not uncommon for a woman to pledge and offer her virginity to God and still marry. Joseph accepted this before the betrothal. Mary was a perpetual virgin and Joseph was “her most chaste spouse”.

I was actually about to say the same thing. Mary and Joseph weren’t Catholic and did not marry under Catholic requirements. They married under Jewish law.

 

[pete_29]

But your just admitting that Joseph and Mary were not married since it was not consummated.

WOW! You really have no fear of God do you?

 

[Thorolfr]

Without consummation, a Catholic marriage is invalid. Therefore any couple who intends to NOT have sex…would be entering into an invalid marriage.

This is actually not true. As the website, “Canon Law Made Easy,” points out, a marriage which is ratum sed non consummatum (ratified but not consummated) is still a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church although not an indissoluble one:

Dissolving a ratum sed non comsummatam marriage is altogether different. In this case, nobody is claiming that the marriage is invalid - that’s why it’s said to be ratum, or ratified. Instead the Church holds that the couple is really and truly married, but that their marriage is not indissoluble. Thus the Supreme Pontiff is able to dissolve it, if the couple are able to prove that their marriage has never been consummated.

canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/12/19/canon-law-and-consummating-a-marriage/#forward

So even if Joseph and Mary had been subject to Catholic canon law, they would still be considered to have a valid marriage even without consummation if they did not seek to dissolve it.

 

[Thorolfr]

WOW! You really have no fear of God do you?

It’s not a question of having no fear of God. I was just making a point that Zoltan is mistaken to say that a marriage in the Catholic Church must be consummated for it to be a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church.

 

[pete_29]

It’s not a question of having no fear of God. I was just making a point that Zoltan is mistaken to say that a marriage in the Catholic Church must be consummated for it to be a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church.

As a Lutheran, you have no say as to what a valid marriage is in the Catholic Church. If your Church is OK with same sex “marriage”, that is its problem.

 

[Thorolfr]

As a Lutheran, you have no say as to what a valid marriage is in the Catholic Church. If your Church is OK with same sex “marriage”, that is its problem.

Sometimes some of us Lutherans actually know more about what is valid in the Catholic Church than some Catholics.

 

[Thorolfr]

As a Lutheran, you have no say as to what a valid marriage is in the Catholic Church.

I never said I did. But I can read about Catholic canon law and point out what it has to say about what makes a valid marriage in the Catholic Church. Even Lutherans can do that.

 

[estesbob]

But your just admitting that Joseph and Mary were not married since it was not consummated.

I cannot believe you just mocked the Blessed Virgin Mary in a Catholic forum . How very very disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself