Redeeming Qualities in Same-Sex Relationships

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catholic1seeks said:
Yes, you are…

Validity of a marriage is not dependent on consummation.

Once again, did Mary and Joseph have a valid marriage or not?
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Yes, they did. First, as you have pointed out, consummation has no effect on the validity of a marriage. Second, since they married before the founding of the Church, canon law was not in effect so trying to apply canons to first-century marriage would require time travel.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Yes, you are…

Validity of a marriage is not dependent on consummation.

Once again, did Mary and Joseph have a valid marriage or not?
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It’s a bit silly to compare the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph’s marriage to typical marriages since they were extraordinary people in very extraordinary circumstances…
 
catholic1seeks said:
You are mistaken.

See more at: catholic.nowealthbutlife.com/valid-consummated/#sthash.gwfdGwBs.dpuf
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There are three basic requirements for a valid Catholic wedding:
  1. The couple must be capable of being married—that is, they must be a **woman and a man **who are free of any impediment that would prevent marriage.
  2. The couple must give their consent to be married — that is, by an act of their will they irrevocably give and accept one another in order to establish marriage (Canon 1057).
  3. They must follow the canonical form for marriage—that is, they must be married according to the laws of the Church so that the Church and the wider community will be certain about the validity of their marriage.
Your argument is that since some people marry with no intention of having children or with the intention of not consummating the marriage…the Church should recognize a same sex marriage if the parties intend to remain celibate. ( My understanding )

The point is moot…see #1. above. We are back to the major impediment…celibacy and chastity aside, the marriage can only be VALID if it is between one man and one woman.

God could have simply made Jesus appear. But He chose a validly married couple to bear Him and raise him as a normal and natural family. A wonderful example of how God holds the family (Mom, Dad, and Children) in high esteem.
 
Saint_Frank said:
It’s a bit silly to compare the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph’s marriage to typical marriages since they were extraordinary people in very extraordinary circumstances…
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That’s right, and prior to God forming his Church on earth.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
There are three basic requirements for a valid Catholic wedding:
  1. The couple must be capable of being married—that is, they must be a **woman and a man **who are free of any impediment that would prevent marriage.
  2. The couple must give their consent to be married — that is, by an act of their will they irrevocably give and accept one another in order to establish marriage (Canon 1057).
  3. They must follow the canonical form for marriage—that is, they must be married according to the laws of the Church so that the Church and the wider community will be certain about the validity of their marriage.
Your argument is that since some people marry with no intention of having children or with the intention of not consummating the marriage…the Church should recognize a same sex marriage if the parties intend to remain celibate. ( My understanding )

The point is moot…see #1. above. We are back to the major impediment…celibacy and chastity aside, the marriage can only be VALID if it is between one man and one woman.

God could have simply made Jesus appear. But He chose a validly married couple to bear Him and raise him as a normal and natural family. A wonderful example of how God holds the family (Mom, Dad, and Children) in high esteem.
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Nice recovery Zolt 😉
 
catholic1seeks said:
Yes, you are…

Validity of a marriage is not dependent on consummation.

Once again, did Mary and Joseph have a valid marriage or not?
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Of course Mary and Joseph had a valid marriage…they were one man and one woman.
 
catholic1seeks said:
How in the world did Thoroflr mock the Blessed Virgin Mary? How is using her marriage as an example of a marriage that existed without consummation disgusting??? :confused::confused::confused:
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I would not expect people like you and Thoroflr to understand how Catholics feel about Mary. She is entitled to special devotion and holds a special place in our hearts. To bring her and the holy family, even as an example, into a discussion that centers around deviant sexual behavior is very offensive. The gay community has been whining about tolerance and understanding for years…how about a little understanding from you guys?

You could start with an apology.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
I would not expect people like you and Thoroflr to understand how Catholics feel about Mary. She is entitled to special devotion and holds a special place in our hearts. To bring her and the holy family, even as an example, into a discussion that centers around deviant sexual behavior is very offensive. The gay community has been whining about tolerance and understanding for years…how about a little understanding from you guys?

You could start with an apology.
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I find it absolutely unbelievable that such arguments were made in the Catholic for forum in the first place. Not only does it show a gross ignorance of Catholic theology and the place of Mary in the church but it is just downright rude to do so in a Catholic forum
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
I would not expect people like you and Thoroflr to understand how Catholics feel about Mary. She is entitled to special devotion and holds a special place in our hearts. To bring her and the holy family, even as an example, into a discussion that centers around deviant sexual behavior is very offensive. The gay community has been whining about tolerance and understanding for years…how about a little understanding from you guys?

You could start with an apology.
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I certainly do apologize if I caused offense since that was not my intent. But there is nothing special about LGBT Christians (some of whom are Catholic) that makes Mary and Joseph less important to them than to other Christians, and Catholic1seeks is also a Catholic. There are many LGBT people who are devout and believing Christians despite their struggles to reconcile their sexual orientation with their faith. Mary and Joseph are also important to most Lutherans and to me.
 
Here’s something nice from yesterday’s Wall Street Journal:
ASUNCIÓN, Paraguay— Pope Francis called for a more welcoming Catholic church, open even to those [who] don’t accept its teachings, as he preached at a large open-air Mass on the last day of a weeklong South American tour.
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Speaking to hundreds of thousands of people at a military air base on the outskirts of Paraguay’s capital city on Sunday, the pontiff taught a lesson in how the church should—and shouldn’t—attempt to spread the Gospel.
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He called for “welcoming those who do not think as we do, who do not have faith or who have lost it, at times through our own fault. Welcoming the persecuted, the unemployed. Welcoming the different cultures, with which this land is so richly blessed. Welcoming sinners.”
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The pope’s homily further highlighted his shift in emphasis from that of his immediate predecessor Pope Benedict XVI, who drew clearer lines between the church and secular culture. Emphasizing mercy, especially for the poor, while taking for granted widely contested moral teachings has been a hallmark of Pope Francis’ missionary style, winning him great popularity though unsettling some within the church.
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For example, an October, 2014, meeting of bishops that the pope called to consider family issues was the scene of controversy over proposals to make it easier for divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Communion—a practice prohibited by church law. The bishops also debated a recognition of positive aspects of so-called irregular relationships, including those between unmarried or same-sex partners. A second bishops meeting in October will take up the issues again.
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“You do not convince people with arguments, strategies or tactics. You convince them by learning how to welcome them,” he said on Sunday. “For that, it is necessary to keep doors open, above all the doors to the heart.”
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wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-calls-for-more-church-openness-1436728106
 
I think there are redeeming qualities in same-sex relationships because there is good and bad in everyone. It is possible that gay relationships can have a friendship if both people are willing to back off a bit so to avoid the near occasion of sin, just as male and female friendship/relationships do.

Where does the OP expect this thread to progress to?
 
Jeannie52 said:
I think there are redeeming qualities in same-sex relationships because there is good and bad in everyone. It is possible that gay relationships can have a friendship if both people are willing to back off a bit so to avoid the near occasion of sin, just as male and female friendship/relationships do.

Where does the OP expect this thread to progress to?
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There could also be ‘redeeming’ qualities in adulterous relationships, since there is good and bad in everyone. They might even deliberately refrain from sex. Still, that does not solve the problem. It is the relationship itself which is the problem. Friendship is fine. But relationships based on illicit romance is wrong.
 
Saint_Frank said:
It’s a bit silly to compare the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph’s marriage to typical marriages since they were extraordinary people in very extraordinary circumstances…
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Not silly at all.

We are talking about the nature of marriage.

If God is willing to make exemption to its nature in that case, then it would seem there is no permanent definition of marriage (assuming that consummation is required – which again, the Church does not teach).
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
There are three basic requirements for a valid Catholic wedding:
  1. The couple must be capable of being married—that is, they must be a **woman and a man **who are free of any impediment that would prevent marriage.
  2. The couple must give their consent to be married — that is, by an act of their will they irrevocably give and accept one another in order to establish marriage (Canon 1057).
  3. They must follow the canonical form for marriage—that is, they must be married according to the laws of the Church so that the Church and the wider community will be certain about the validity of their marriage.
Your argument is that since some people marry with no intention of having children or with the intention of not consummating the marriage…the Church should recognize a same sex marriage if the parties intend to remain celibate. ( My understanding )

The point is moot…see #1. above. We are back to the major impediment…celibacy and chastity aside, the marriage can only be VALID if it is between one man and one woman.

God could have simply made Jesus appear. But He chose a validly married couple to bear Him and raise him as a normal and natural family. A wonderful example of how God holds the family (Mom, Dad, and Children) in high esteem.
Click to expand...
Only that this wasn’t my argument. I was simply pointing out that consummation was not required, as you had initially said.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
I would not expect people like you and Thoroflr to understand how Catholics feel about Mary. She is entitled to special devotion and holds a special place in our hearts. To bring her and the holy family, even as an example, into a discussion that centers around deviant sexual behavior is very offensive. The gay community has been whining about tolerance and understanding for years…how about a little understanding from you guys?

You could start with an apology.
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I will not apologize because I said nothing offensive.

I know plenty about how Catholics feel about Mary. I was born and raised Catholic. Attended Catholic school until eighth grade. Studied the faith in depth. Prayed the rosary many times. I love Mary still and still ask her for her prayers. I would defend her Immaculate Conception and Assumption to anyone.

Simply using her marriage as an illustration of a point on marriage is not offensive. It points to the truth: Consummation is NOT required for a valid marriage.
 
estesbob said:
I find it absolutely unbelievable that such arguments were made in the Catholic for forum in the first place. Not only does it show a gross ignorance of Catholic theology and the place of Mary in the church but it is just downright rude to do so in a Catholic forum
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Okay, I am sorry if this was offensive. But really. How? How was anything that was said about using Mary and Joseph’s marriage as an illustration of a valid out of place? It was pertinent to the discussion. I sense this talk of offense as some kind of diversion from the truth that the Blessed Virgin’s marriage illustrates: Consummation is not required for a valid marriage. Even now.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Not silly at all.

We are talking about the nature of marriage.

If God is willing to make exemption to its nature in that case, then it would seem there is no permanent definition of marriage (assuming that consummation is required – which again, the Church does not teach).
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Exceptions only prove the rule, not override it, due to them being all the more glaring.
 
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