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Zoltan_Cobalt
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If there are no impediments and they are open to children…They live happily ever after.
As a practicing Catholic, who attended Catholic school…you should know the basics…
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Then they are not Catholics…
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Thorolfr
Guest
So is that what you think that Pope Francis meant when he said this last Sunday, "You do not convince people with arguments, strategies or tactics. You convince them by learning how to welcome them. For that, it is necessary to keep doors open, above all the doors to the heart.”
What does he mean when he calls for “welcoming those who do not think as we do, who do not have faith or who have lost it, at times through our own fault. Welcoming the persecuted, the unemployed. Welcoming the different cultures, with which this land is so richly blessed. Welcoming sinners.”
Is he saying that you should tell someone, “We welcome you with an open heart, but we think you’re a sinner because of XXXX and this is why and you must repent, but we still love you”. I’m sure that’s not what he means when he says, “You convince them by learning how to welcome them.” You’re not going to convince any of those “who do not think as we do, who do not have faith or who have lost it” if you start off by calling them sinners and telling them to repent.
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JimG
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That, then, is the problem. We do no one a favor by accepting an incorrect assumption.
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Operalan
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All of this parsing of words and semantics.
The Catechism is so clear. I’m not sure why the discussion has gone and on for so long. Either you accept the magisterium’s teaching or you don’t. When you recite the creed each week, you affirm your consent and belief to the Church—the Church founded by Jesus Christ. It seems that there are some here that would rather attempt to change the unchangeable than accept that which has been taught and adhere to for so long.
The Catechism is so clear. I’m not sure why the discussion has gone and on for so long. Either you accept the magisterium’s teaching or you don’t. When you recite the creed each week, you affirm your consent and belief to the Church—the Church founded by Jesus Christ. It seems that there are some here that would rather attempt to change the unchangeable than accept that which has been taught and adhere to for so long.
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Rau
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No one is condemned, though I get your point. Your church has welcomed you. If it were to gradually move to a position of holding same sex sexual acts immoral, and call for repentence, would you repent? Would you remain pleased with your choice of Church ?
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catholic1seeks
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catholic1seeks
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Show me in the Catechism where my question is answered:
What are good qualities, if any, in same-sex relationships?
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Zoltan_Cobalt
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I’ll tell you what he does not mean…So is that what you think that Pope Francis meant when he said this last Sunday, "You do not convince people with arguments, strategies or tactics. You convince them by learning how to welcome them. For that, it is necessary to keep doors open, above all the doors to the heart.”
What does he mean when he calls for “welcoming those who do not think as we do, who do not have faith or who have lost it, at times through our own fault. Welcoming the persecuted, the unemployed. Welcoming the different cultures, with which this land is so richly blessed. Welcoming sinners.”
Is he saying that you should tell someone, “We welcome you with an open heart, but we think you’re a sinner because of XXXX and this is why and you must repent, but we still love you”. I’m sure that’s not what he means when he says, “You convince them by learning how to welcome them.” You’re not going to convince any of those “who do not think as we do, who do not have faith or who have lost it” if you start off by calling them sinners and telling them to repent.
“Welcome friends. We welcome you and love you all so much that we will disregard our 2000 years of teaching and tradition based on the word of God…and make all sorts of concessions JUST FOR YOU…The Catholic Church is your home now…step right up and get your box of Sunday offering envelopes.”
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catholic1seeks
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I don’t even remember what the point was when somebody (forgot which user) compared homosexuals mentioning their partners in public to men mentioning their mistresses in public.
But the point I was making was that there is a difference between a committed homosexual couple and a man with a mistress.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
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There is a difference?
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catholic1seeks
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You are basically presenting a fallacy. There are more than these two options you refer to: We welcome homosexuals by telling them their sins and to repent or we change doctrine and say gay is OK.
Churches that uphold traditional doctrine have plenty of options to pastorally incorporate homosexual couples in their churches while at the same time maintaining what is sinful. There is never a one-size-fits-all.
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catholic1seeks
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Of course.
Procreation is the actual process of producing offspring, which “being open to children” allows.
Procreation is not part of many validly married couples’ lives.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
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So this is your premise for the entire post…Redeeming Qualities in Same Sex Relationships…we (the Holy Roman Catholic Church) change doctrine and say gay is OK
Is that what you are suggesting? Will that simplify salvation, make the world a better place? Guarantee peace and prosperity…end world hunger?
The Catholic Church has no options. The Catholic Church DOES welcome homosexuals with compassion and understanding without discrimination. We only ask that if you want to “join our club” you follow a few rules.
Other churches that “play options” are in a risky business…like stock market options.
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Rau
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The very specifics of why they are wrong differ. They are both wrong. I know…you disagree! Let’s say the man with the mistress firmly believed his relationship is good, has many good qualities. Then you’d be fine with that?
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Zoltan_Cobalt
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I see. So “being open to children” would include procreation as the process; since the couple who are “open to children” would have to do something that could result in procreation.
Some couples are not blessed with children. But their marriages are valid and ratified because they are “open to children” and have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.
In other words…they consummated their marriage
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Smack
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Zoltan, I couldn’t agree more with your statement:
“We only ask that if you want to “join our club” you follow a few rules.”
The image of your “club” simplification is spot on. What if I love eating animals but I still REALLY want to join PETA for all of it’s benefits… would they let me in? Could I bully them to the point where they felt really pressured to let me in? And if I do finally get in to their “club,” should I stop there, or should I then enlighten them about all of the nutrition in consuming flesh? Once I do that, then what? When I get to that point, it ceases to actually be PETA, doesn’t it?
If we believe in the Holy Scriptures, we don’t get to change our rules to drift in and out of the ever-changing winds of political correctness. Benefits aside- if you don’t like the rules, than don’t join the club. It’s that simple.
“We only ask that if you want to “join our club” you follow a few rules.”
The image of your “club” simplification is spot on. What if I love eating animals but I still REALLY want to join PETA for all of it’s benefits… would they let me in? Could I bully them to the point where they felt really pressured to let me in? And if I do finally get in to their “club,” should I stop there, or should I then enlighten them about all of the nutrition in consuming flesh? Once I do that, then what? When I get to that point, it ceases to actually be PETA, doesn’t it?
If we believe in the Holy Scriptures, we don’t get to change our rules to drift in and out of the ever-changing winds of political correctness. Benefits aside- if you don’t like the rules, than don’t join the club. It’s that simple.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
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If we believe in the Holy Scriptures, we don’t get to change our rules to drift in and out of the ever-changing winds of political correctness. Benefits aside- if you don’t like the rules, than don’t join the club. It’s that simple.
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Corki
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That was me responding to Tholrolfr. And no, there is no practical difference. Both are publically “proud” of a relationship that is disordered.
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