I didn’t word that well. Those two options I meant were ones you were asserting. My solution was the latter paragraph: churches can maintain the traditional teaching while also being more open and understanding.
Hmm. Well, I simply disagree with you here.
So I guess anyone who has difficulties with a teaching of the Church should not be apart of it.Zoltan, I couldn’t agree more with your statement:
“We only ask that if you want to “join our club” you follow a few rules.”
The image of your “club” simplification is spot on. What if I love eating animals but I still REALLY want to join PETA for all of it’s benefits… would they let me in? Could I bully them to the point where they felt really pressured to let me in? And if I do finally get in to their “club,” should I stop there, or should I then enlighten them about all of the nutrition in consuming flesh? Once I do that, then what? When I get to that point, it ceases to actually be PETA, doesn’t it?
If we believe in the Holy Scriptures, we don’t get to change our rules to drift in and out of the ever-changing winds of political correctness. Benefits aside- if you don’t like the rules, than don’t join the club. It’s that simple.
That’s not a correct guess. But all Catholics have a duty to continuously work to form their conscience and that means studying what the Church teaches, why she teaches it and to what level we must assent to the teaching. You can honestly claim that you don’t understand why the Church teaches something and still remain fully a part of the Church as long as you are striving to close the gap in understanding. What you **can’t honestly **do is to give up and just dissent or flat out disagree if you want to remain a Catholic in good standing.
Right.
What does this mean to you though? That’s part of the misunderstanding here. Are you saying that committed homosexual couples should be allowed to come to mass despite their immoral relationship? Because they are allowed, and if they are Catholic, are in fact still required to. I agree that the Church can maintain it’s position regarding the dignity of persons in a homosexual relationship while also maintaining its doctrine that homosexual acts are sinful. This is exactly what it does, regardless of whether or not other Catholics express this accurately.
And some Catholic organizations do that. For instance, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles has a program called “Catholic Ministry with Lesbian and Gay Persons” (CMLGP). Their statement says:
la-archdiocese.org/org/cmlgp/Pages/default.aspx
Well said. Private, intimate matters should never be discussed in public. Respect for other persons needs to be taken into account. Also, “same-sex marriage” announced in public is a cause for scandal and confusion regarding the true nature of marriage.
Do you think the Catholic Church is not open and understanding…?
Your grasp of the obvious is remarkable.
Fortunately, most Catholics don’t have this attitude. As I pointed out above in my post about the program at the Archdiocese of Los Angeles called “Catholic Ministry with Lesbian and Gay Persons” (CMLGP), some Catholics have chosen “to follow a prudent pastoral course, accepting people where they are in their discipleship with Jesus Christ [and] their membership in the Church” instead of suggesting that they can’t be Catholic and should leave.
The program you refer to does not appear at odds with anything the Church teaches or practices. The pastoral program you mention does not propose to make a role for those embracing sinful acts, but for those persons “living a Christian life”, and those movements “consonant with Church teaching”. It acknowledges the good and worth of individuals and it “challenges them to live out fully the call of Christ and the teachings of the Church.”
Yes, this program does “challenging” LGBT people “to live out fully the call of Christ and the teachings of the Church” but I think that “accepting” them “where they are in their discipleship with Jesus Christ [and] their membership in the Church” is also important. The place that some of these people are at probably still includes being in same-sex relationships. If you want to see what an accepting Catholic parish is like, there is St. Matthew’s Catholic Church in Long Beach, CA (which is in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles):
comunidadlb.org/
That is well and good, but
Agreed, but don’t confuse “accepting” where someone “is” with knowing to where they are
I think what Catholicism says is that you are supposed to live a certain way and that if you do you will find peace and be happy–that conforming your life to the will of God is where you will find your ultimate fulfillment. I think it says it not about our wants and desires but about doing the will of the Father. I doubt that it was Jesus desire to go to the Cross, but he did because it was the will of the Father. Look around you will find many married people who are unhappy–marriage in no guarantee of happiness–usually because people are looking for the marriage to meet some desire of theirs, to meet some need–and when it doesn’t, when things get hard, when they don’t feel loved or appreciated–they leave without much consideration for those they are supposed to love. It is all about them and their needs rather than the needs of those they are supposed to love. I’m supposed to love my spouse as Christ loves me–that means that I shouldn’t be thinking about my needs at all but about my spouses (which is easier said than done, but once I realized this–it was transforming). As Christians this is to be our attitude in everything–it should never be about us but about how we can serve, about how we can do the will of the Father. So I guess the first thing to do is to try and determine the will of the Father and then to attempt to do it–there you will find true peace and happiness–not the fleeting happiness promised by the world that so many continually chase like drugs addicts needing more and more to get high.
I think that’s a common misconception. The average Catholic is not concerned about his neighbor being gay or lesbian and being a Catholic. The average Catholic, and clearly the Church, is concerned about their neighbor who is gay or lesbian and has a same-sex husband or wife and openly proclaims it and is Catholic. The Pope has been quite clear on this historically new and spreading phenomenon. And even those in a state of “gay marriage” can still go to Mass but they represent a clear and present disruption to the social order and Church teaching.
Can you clarify what you mean there? (in red)