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Memaw
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All of the above, the acts themselves, the scandal involved and the fact that it is an unnatural act. The Bible calls it abdominal. I think I will take God’s word for it. God Bless, Memaw
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pnewton
Guest
I see no meaning in a homosexual relationship, without the “sexual” part. If the question is just literally “same-sex”, then I would say the father/son relationship is vital, as is the mother/daughter relationship.
If it is the romance that is the point, then use the same example of a “romantic” relationship between a young child and an adult. Even with the lack of sex, nothing good comes from a disordered relationship.
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InSearchofGrace
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catholic1seeks,
The above is part of
What’s wrong with a permanent, faithful, stable same-sex sexual relationship?
written by Ed Shaw, Associate Pastor at Emmanuel Bristol Church (under Church of England) in the UK, one of three Christian leaders with same sex attraction, giving witness and counsel to other Christians seeking guidance on a site called livingout.org.
I invite you to read the articles and Q&As at livingout.org, and view the video presentations that address the assertions you repeat and questions you pose worded in different ways to challenge the proscription on lived out homosexuality.
I have to say that if there is any one “obsessed with the gay issue” as you claim in a previous thread you opened, it is you and others like you who are in this forum to simply serve as another pressure group. You will not be convinced no matter what, that on a matter of faith and morals, the Catholic Church is not about to yield to popular or political pressure. It would be easy to join churches that are already gay affirming with more giving in, giving up, on the demand of the crowd pushing to have “same sex relationships accepted, even celebrated.”
You and Thorolfr submit the recurring argument that faithful same sex relationships somehow nullify scriptural teaching on homosexuality. It does not. It is unlikely you can be convinced, considering you opened a thread indicative of the direction you want the Catholic Church to go, “Could the CC ever change its teaching on homosexuality?”
,
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Corki
Guest
As has been pointed out, there is really nothing about the relationship that can be celebrated or accepted by Catholic churches. It is wrong on every level. ** However,** the “redeeming quality” that may exist is that such a couple would serve as a reminder for priests and parishioners to engage individuals as individuals and not let the relationship overshadow.
Even with married couples, in some parishes, it’s hard to have an identity as individuals and not as “The Smiths”. With a same-sex couple, since the relationship cannot be affirmed, the necessity to accept and affirm each** individual **in spite of the relationship is more evident.
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Kurisu35712
Guest
Part of the issue is that a romantic homosexual relationship is generally implying sexual activity, otherwise it would be referred to as something else. Thus the problem lies in the approach of the individuals involved. The sin in the relationship is due to the mindset and intent of the two in the relationship. Myself and my best friend may well have the same level of emotional intimacy and the same desire for the good of each other as a homosexual couple. These are good qualities on their own, but the relationship as a whole is not the same. My best friend and I are not in a homosexual relationship. There is no sexual element, which is why our relationship is not the same as that of two gay men in a relationship with each other.
While the two may have identical interpersonal features and feelings and whatnot, the fact remains that my friendship is never based on sexual desire. I would posit that if two gay men are in a chaste relationship, their relationship is in essence no different than mine with my friends, but then I also don’t know if “homosexual relationship” is the right descriptor. However, if that is *not *the case, then the relationship itself is based on sexual desire, hence the source of the relationship is disordered. As a result, while the emotional intimacy and mutual caretaking are good qualities, their context is not. Likewise, if a relationship is actually based on mutual trust and so on, but sexual relations are a defining or even occasional part of it, it is still disordered in that sexuality is being misused.
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catholic1seeks
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I don’t think I can be Catholic anymore.
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davidv
Guest
Fortunately for you, that is not your choice to make. You baptism makes you Catholic forever. You only get to choose whether to be faithful, or not.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Take a deep breath. Then realize that you’re rejecting Catholicism based on Internet Forum Theology.
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Thorolfr
Guest
The"redeeming" qualities are exactly the same for straight and gay couples. Commitment, shared joy and struggles and working to make our world a better place are just a few examples.
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pnewton
Guest
I know in America, the way one picks a faith is finding something that agrees with them and going in that direction. Ask yourself if that really is the best way to find what is true, or should one find what is true and then conform to that. In other words, do we conform to God’s image or conform our view of God to our image.
The is a point that must first be clarified in any search for divine truth. Are we search for divine truth, or a place to fit in?
As to homosexuality, it is a topic now, so it comes up a lot. However, people with this issue are no different from anyone else in that we all have sins and failings. Likewise, while I think looking for redeeming qualities in those failings is the wrong question, we all are deserving of basic human dignity and most of us have many redeeming qualities despite our failings.
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estesbob
Guest
If participating in an Internet form causes you to doubt your Faith you need to flee the forum as quickly as possible .
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Operalan
Guest
As another has noted, that’s not your choice. And, please note, you have to wonder when you changed in your understanding of Catholicism and its teachings. The Church did not change and has been consistent from the beginning. The Church is steadfast and right, as it was established by Jesus Christ, in its teachings on morals and faith. Because you have “evolved” (or is that “devolved”) in your understanding and acceptance of the teachings, is not in any manner the fault of the Catholic Church.
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catholic1seeks
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My post was a bit reactionary because I was simply fed up with many of the responses on this thread. I understood that many would accept homosexual activity as sinful, but there does not seem to be much openness to understanding what homosexual relationships are really like or what good they can bring to the persons in the relationship and the surrounding community.
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pnewton
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I think you would have fared better by splitting these two questions. A person in a gay relationship can bring much to the community and do great good for society. We are better off for having these people, as we are for all people, because of the innate dignity of Man. However, the one person they may not be good for is their partner, as they serve as a temptation for grave sin, something we are to avoid. It is like asking if a drug dealer can have redeeming qualities for his customers. Well, maybe he cooks good pasta for him. But the good is in spite of the relationship, not because of it.
FYI - I would feel the same about an adulterer and his mistress. There may be something redeeming in the relationship, but it is never worth it.
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estesbob
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If the relationship includes homosexual behavior it can not be “good” I am a recovering alcoholic. I know that people not afflicted with this really don’t understand it but that in now way gives me license to get drunk.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
So if a heterosexual (married) couple is consistently contracepting, can that relationship be good at all? Or does the inherent evil of contraception nullify the entire relationship?
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Estebob, earlier you mentioned that your daughter will soon be entering a same-sex marriage. And you also said that you like your daughter’s partner.
Are you saying that their relationship has no good in any aspect whatsoever simply because homosexual relationships include sexual activity?
Are you saying that their relationship has no good in any aspect whatsoever simply because homosexual relationships include sexual activity?
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estesbob
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I would say that any relationship that puts one immortal soul in danger can not be good.
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estesbob
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The sin of contraception can be removed from a relationship. The same can not be said for a same sex marriage.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Honestly I do not think many moral theologians would agree with this assessment. They may well say that gay sexual activity is “intrinsically sinful” but would not thereby see that the entire relationship in each of its aspects and expressions is sinful, immoral, or wrong.
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