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Teflon93
Guest
And since you have the Christian concern for unity, what is the proper number of Protestant denominations and what evidence will you point us to to confirm it?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
While there might be **disagreement **within a Catholic community about some local church policy things (choir music, decor etc.) there are never any sanctioned disagreements with core doctrine. Anyone who willfully foments heresy within The Catholic Church separates herself through committing Mortal sin or automatic excommunication. I have not once EVER heard a priest stand up and challenge his bishop nor the pontiff at the podium. Nor have I ever heard a practising Catholic spreading dissension about the church - these people just leave since no one will pay them any ear.
In your 40 past years as a Protestant have you not ever spoken to the “bible Christians” who are all leaving their traditional Protestant denominations to go to ostensibly “neutral” non-denominational “bible-services”? I have spoken to a number of these and from there I have heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that justifies my perspective. Do I have scientific data? No. Nor should anyone be naive enough to imagine that any of these Protestant organizations would ever dare leak this kind of information out to the public. But one can also read in the news the many regular accounts of schisms within “Protestant land” all around the world. Most recently we have conservative Anglicans announcing this week in Jerusalem that they want to divorce themselves from the corrupt leadership in England and The USA over the ordination of homosexuals and women.
Anglicans face wider split over policy toward gays
It’s been a festering problem and its coming to a head:
Analysis: Anglican schism nears reality
So, the evidence is there and I am confident that its likely just the tip of the iceberg. The thing about protest and instability it that its contagious - more instability will follow in a domino of cause and effect.
So I’d caution you to be careful that you don’t permit yourself to become too zealous in giving an undo benefit of the doubt and over identify with your Protestant roots amidst the general Protestant meltdown that is going on. There is a divine reason why this is happening - they are heretics. The child learns from its parent and the pattern of protest is a self-defeating template that is not sustainable. Once one learns that they can rebel against authority - there is no need for authority. That is until everyone falls into the morass of consequence and rediscovers why we need it. Many of these will eventually come back to the stability of “the rock” - the Catholic Church. I am only surprised that Protestantism has lasted as long as it has.
So, anyone not wearing rose colored glasses has to admit the truth about what is happening. This is the natural consequence of trying to replace the God given authority of the Catholic Church with a new and novel “self-help do-it-yourself secular theology” of Protestantism. All that has come of all this is theological incompetence, ecclesiastical mediocrity and general anarchy. Worse of all though is that with only 2 valid sacraments (Baptism and Marriage) Protestants have only slim prospects for salvation. So what did the protest profit anyone in the context of eternity?
For the record, rejection of valid ecclesiastical authority is fundamentally at the root of what separates Protestants from Catholics since that had led them into new modern teachings of ordinary and quite theologically ignorant men. The apostles never taught that Christianity was a “democracy rule” sort of home rule - where every person with a bible gets a vote on what scripture means. Nor would Jesus approve of a “shop around till you find a preacher you like” sort of salvation model. Nope, these are all modern innovations extending out of the secularization of Christianity and the proxied rule by state orchestrated by the Protestant Reformers; all duped men who fell headlong into exactly what the monarchy and the state wanted all along - control. So now we have a general global unwinding of the system built by men too blinded by pride to know they, their followers and their descendants were being groomed to be passive economic slaves deprived of full spiritual truth. Such are mere drones who are free to “practise religion” as long as they pay their tithe to the new partnership of church and state while sacrificing a tithe (7 books out of 73) out of scripture on the secular altar to give the devil his due for conceiving the whole concept. What a system Luther wrought…
James
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PhilVaz
Guest
toaslan << I’m sorry to be dense, but why take 33k and multiply by .56? What does this have to do with the 5k+ you have successfully identified? >>
9000+ is what “Global Christianity” online could name. That includes all RCs, all Orths, all Marginals, all Indy RCs/Orths, and all duplicate names in other countries. After manually removing these the correct number becomes 5000+.
5000 / 9000 = .56 is the ratio of true unique Prot denoms / total denoms
33000+ includes the 9000+ plus some additional estimates. That includes all RCs (242), all Orths (781), all Marginals (1600), all Indy RCs/Orths (3% of 22000), and all duplicate names in other countries. After manually removing these the correct number should be the same ratio:
33000 x .56 = 18000+
So I am assuming 33000 is the more accurate global number (as of 2000), and 9000 is simply what they could individually name. To get the true unique number of Protestant denominations from the 33000 number, one must remove all RCs, all Orths, all Indy RCs/Orths, all Marginals, and all duplicate names in other countries, and what’s left are unique Protestants, Indy Prots, and Anglicans. You do this by multiplying by .56
Phil P
9000+ is what “Global Christianity” online could name. That includes all RCs, all Orths, all Marginals, all Indy RCs/Orths, and all duplicate names in other countries. After manually removing these the correct number becomes 5000+.
5000 / 9000 = .56 is the ratio of true unique Prot denoms / total denoms
33000+ includes the 9000+ plus some additional estimates. That includes all RCs (242), all Orths (781), all Marginals (1600), all Indy RCs/Orths (3% of 22000), and all duplicate names in other countries. After manually removing these the correct number should be the same ratio:
33000 x .56 = 18000+
So I am assuming 33000 is the more accurate global number (as of 2000), and 9000 is simply what they could individually name. To get the true unique number of Protestant denominations from the 33000 number, one must remove all RCs, all Orths, all Indy RCs/Orths, all Marginals, and all duplicate names in other countries, and what’s left are unique Protestants, Indy Prots, and Anglicans. You do this by multiplying by .56
Phil P
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thegame
Guest
Reading these threads is very sad. Not nearly as sad as the topic discussed however.
The Pew Forum Studies of religion in America that have come out this year have allowed every critic / secularist / anti-religion commentator to use the proliferation of Protestant denominations to make fools of all American Christianity. The sheer absurdity of 44% of adults switching churches, or the fact that the non-practicing and non-believing groups now dwarf any single Protestant group should make you all gag! (I won’t get into the complete theological confusion / ignorance in this country which ultimately makes this ‘choosing’ of churches’ a complete joke.)
Experts in demographics seem to think mainline Protestantism may not exist within 20-40 years. Some people have some serious thinking to do?
The idea that the whole of Christianity is in your Bible - and it can be whatever you want it to be - is such a complete misunderstanding and a failure its curious how anyone could believe it.
The Pew Forum Studies of religion in America that have come out this year have allowed every critic / secularist / anti-religion commentator to use the proliferation of Protestant denominations to make fools of all American Christianity. The sheer absurdity of 44% of adults switching churches, or the fact that the non-practicing and non-believing groups now dwarf any single Protestant group should make you all gag! (I won’t get into the complete theological confusion / ignorance in this country which ultimately makes this ‘choosing’ of churches’ a complete joke.)
Experts in demographics seem to think mainline Protestantism may not exist within 20-40 years. Some people have some serious thinking to do?
The idea that the whole of Christianity is in your Bible - and it can be whatever you want it to be - is such a complete misunderstanding and a failure its curious how anyone could believe it.
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toaslan
Guest
Hi, Dense here!
the 5,000 is non-duplicated denoms inside the US?
the 9,000 was denoms including duplications inside the US?
the ratio being .56.
So applying same ratio worldwide?
33,000 denoms including duplications worldwide
multiplied by .56
gives us 18,000+ non-duplicated denoms worldwide?
is this it?
Also, Phil–
you got that 9,000 figure from Global Christianity?
And they did not say how they got it?
But you did all this math and realized they got it from the 33,000 World Christian Encyclopedia number?
By deleting duplications from the WCE worldwide number themselves?
And then identifying which of that smaller number were U.S.A. denoms?
still stuck on the numbers…
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
There is not a 100% correct human denomination. There is a church that Christ promises. It is not a human organization led by a Pope, or group of Bishops, or elders. It is the church promised in the Holy Scriptures.
The number of organizations does not invalidate sola scripture OR the Catholic church view. They exist. You have many groups as well that adhere to Scripture and Tradition and do not agree. Now, some might say there are only a few. How many do you have to have before that proves my point. Would 10 Protestant denominations be ok? No, just one is not ok people would say. **Well, there are more than one churches that split when supposedly led by an infallible Church. **Is this a numbers game?
I think not.
The number of organizations does not invalidate sola scripture OR the Catholic church view. They exist. You have many groups as well that adhere to Scripture and Tradition and do not agree. Now, some might say there are only a few. How many do you have to have before that proves my point. Would 10 Protestant denominations be ok? No, just one is not ok people would say. **Well, there are more than one churches that split when supposedly led by an infallible Church. **Is this a numbers game?
I think not.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Thank you for your opinion - but it is 100% wrong.
There is only one Body of Christ and One Catholic Church that is under a community of bishops who are all appointed through direct apostolic succession. Among these bishops there is one who we now call “the pope” who is appointed as the successor to Peter and he is Christ’s vicar on earth.
James
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jmcrae
Guest
If the Church promised in the Holy Scriptures, which is a physical organization that was led by the Apostles, that had the authority to set discipline, write letters to congregations, and call Councils, is not the Catholic Church, then show your historical evidence and point to which one it is.
Jesus made the promise that His Church would not leave the earth until His second coming, so point to a Church that was led by the Apostles, that is world-wide in scope, and that has continued to exist from Apostolic times until now, with no breaks.
The only one that fits all four of the ancient criteria (One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic) is the Catholic Church, as far as I can tell.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
I think ur orthodox brethren would have to disagree with you.
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jmcrae
Guest
They lack only one thing - they are not world-wide. Instead, they are ethnically-based.
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Teflon93
Guest
No, they believe their to be one Church; they disagree on its governance. They believed in the supremacy of the Roman pontiff up to 1054, although they disagreed with specific doctrines from time to time. See John Julius Norwich’s excellent 3-volume series on Byzantium for more.
They also agree that you Protestants are not part of this Church, so be careful how you quote them.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Yeah the same could be said for 30,000 other churches…
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Teflon93
Guest
They are also not in full communion with the Vicar of Christ on Earth. One day we’ll undo the wounds of 1054, probably long before those of 1520.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Interesting so do they have statements similar to unam sanctum?
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Teflon93
Guest
They have a sacramental view of salvation which the vast majority of Protestants lack.
Feel free to ask them whether they believe salvation is possible without access to the Eucharist.
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PhilVaz
Guest
toaslan << Also, Phil–you got that 9,000 figure from Global Christianity? And they did not say how they got it? But you did all this math and realized they got it from the 33,000 World Christian Encyclopedia number? By deleting duplications from the WCE worldwide number themselves? And then identifying which of that smaller number were U.S.A. denoms? still stuck on the numbers… >>
Go back and read the entire thread.
My "Facts and Stats" article explains everything you need to know about the 33000 number. This large number is broken down as follows:
Independents (about 22000) +
Protestants (about 9000) +
“Marginals” (about 1600) +
Orthodox (781) +
Roman Catholics (242) +
Anglicans (168) =
33,000 total “Christian denominations”
Now if we want total “unique” Protestant denominations from this number what we need to do is remove the RCs, remove the Orths, remove the RCs/Orths/Marginals from the Indys (about 3% of the 22000), remove the Marginals (these include groups such as “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, “Mormons”, several small pseudo-Christian groups and “cults,” etc), AND (most important) remove all DUPLICATES in other countries. For example, the “Roman Catholic Church” is repeated 242 times because of all 242 countries (or 238 the number of countries varies a bit). The Protestant denominations are not found in all countries, but there are several who have at least “dozens” of duplicates that need to be removed for their “unique” total number. Now…
The 9000 total number is from the same people who inherited the World Christian Encyclopedia data is what I understand. You can see from my file below that the same “mega-blocs” are included: RCs, Orths, Protestants, Independents, Marginals, Anglicans. Therefore, the same goes for the 9000 number as the 33000 number: remove those RCs, remove those Orths, remove those RCs/Orths/Marginals from the Indys, remove the Marginal pseudo-Christian cults/sects, and remove all DUPLICATES in other countries. Everything except the duplicate names I removed manually by scanning/sorting the entire file myself. For the raw data I am working with (all 9000+ physically available from “Global Christianity” online), see this zip file:
www.bringyou.to/DENOMS-BY-NAME.zip (both .XLS and .CSV files)
The only assumption I am making about the 9000 vs. 33000 totals is the 9000 number are the denominations they could actually individually name, the larger 33000 number which appears in the WCE (from year 2000 totals, the number as of 2008 is now closer to 40000) had to be estimated / extrapolated. But I am assuming the 33000 number is the more accurate total number of denominations. Since the ratio of removals-to-total in the smaller number is 5000 / 9000 (about .56), then the ratio of removals-to-total in the larger number should be about the same 18000 / 33000 (the same .56). Get it? How much clearer can I make it? :whacky:
The whole question of the thread as I’ve pointed out from the beginning is the “33000 denominations” number is too large mainly because of the “duplicates” problem. I said OK, then what of those 33000 are “unique” Protestant denomations? That’s what I’ve been trying to figure out by deleting duplicates in other countries. You are not dense, just confused like us all! 
Phil P
Go back and read the entire thread.
My "Facts and Stats" article explains everything you need to know about the 33000 number. This large number is broken down as follows:Independents (about 22000) +
Protestants (about 9000) +
“Marginals” (about 1600) +
Orthodox (781) +
Roman Catholics (242) +
Anglicans (168) =
33,000 total “Christian denominations”
Now if we want total “unique” Protestant denominations from this number what we need to do is remove the RCs, remove the Orths, remove the RCs/Orths/Marginals from the Indys (about 3% of the 22000), remove the Marginals (these include groups such as “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, “Mormons”, several small pseudo-Christian groups and “cults,” etc), AND (most important) remove all DUPLICATES in other countries. For example, the “Roman Catholic Church” is repeated 242 times because of all 242 countries (or 238 the number of countries varies a bit). The Protestant denominations are not found in all countries, but there are several who have at least “dozens” of duplicates that need to be removed for their “unique” total number. Now…
The 9000 total number is from the same people who inherited the World Christian Encyclopedia data is what I understand. You can see from my file below that the same “mega-blocs” are included: RCs, Orths, Protestants, Independents, Marginals, Anglicans. Therefore, the same goes for the 9000 number as the 33000 number: remove those RCs, remove those Orths, remove those RCs/Orths/Marginals from the Indys, remove the Marginal pseudo-Christian cults/sects, and remove all DUPLICATES in other countries. Everything except the duplicate names I removed manually by scanning/sorting the entire file myself. For the raw data I am working with (all 9000+ physically available from “Global Christianity” online), see this zip file:
www.bringyou.to/DENOMS-BY-NAME.zip (both .XLS and .CSV files)
The only assumption I am making about the 9000 vs. 33000 totals is the 9000 number are the denominations they could actually individually name, the larger 33000 number which appears in the WCE (from year 2000 totals, the number as of 2008 is now closer to 40000) had to be estimated / extrapolated. But I am assuming the 33000 number is the more accurate total number of denominations. Since the ratio of removals-to-total in the smaller number is 5000 / 9000 (about .56), then the ratio of removals-to-total in the larger number should be about the same 18000 / 33000 (the same .56). Get it? How much clearer can I make it? :whacky:
The whole question of the thread as I’ve pointed out from the beginning is the “33000 denominations” number is too large mainly because of the “duplicates” problem. I said OK, then what of those 33000 are “unique” Protestant denomations? That’s what I’ve been trying to figure out by deleting duplicates in other countries. You are not dense, just confused like us all!
Phil P
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5pintLutheran
Guest
Even if you take out the subsects within mainstream Christian churches, you still have disunity within the church.
Adding up denominations from “Handbook of Denominations in the US, 12 ed.” by Frank S. Mead, Samuel S. Hill, and Craig D. Atwood:
- Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox
- Catholic
- Episcopal and Anglican
- Lutheran
- Reformed, Congregationalist, and Presbyterian
- Mennonite and Anabaptist
- Friends
- Bretheren and Pietist
- Baptist
- Methodist
- Holiness
- Christian and Restorationist (Stone-Campbell Tradition)
- Adventist and Sabbatarian (Hebraic)
- Pentecostal
- Native American
- Fundamentalist and Bible churches
- Community and New Paradigm churches
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PhilVaz
Guest
toaslan << the 5,000 is non-duplicated denoms inside the US? the 9,000 was denoms including duplications inside the US? the ratio being .56 >>
Download the data, see the field names yourself, these are:
Name of denomination, COUNTRY of denomination, number of total congregations for that denom, number of affiliated Christians for that denom, and the denom “mega-bloc” (RC, Orth, Prot, Indy, Marginal, or Anglican).
Both the 9000 and 33000 (now closer to 40000) total denoms is indeed worldwide global data, all 242 countries in the world are included.
5000+ is supposed to be the non-duplicated Protestant/Indy/Anglican names of the 9000 – although it appears my program missed quite a few duplicates since the country name was simply “tacked on” as part of the name, these would have to be removed beforehand by me manually.
For example, in the A’s:
Anglican Church (D Antigua)
Anglican Church (D Cyprus & the Gulf)
Anglican Church (D Egypt L & N)
Anglican Church (D Egypt)
Anglican Church (D Europe)
Anglican Church (D Guyana)
Anglican Church (D Jamaica)
Anglican Church (D Kuching)
Anglican Church (D Mauritius)
Anglican Church (D Nassau & B)
Anglican Church (D Papua & New Guinea)
Anglican Church (D Polynesia)
Anglican Church (D Singapore)
Anglican Church (D Virgin Islands)
Anglican Church (D Windward Is)
Anglican Church (D Windward Isles)
Are these really “separate denominations” of Anglicans? Probably not. To be fair, if I remove all 242 RCs because that is really one “Roman Catholic” denomination, I should remove these duplicate Anglicans as well. This appears to be the case with a couple dozen others if you scan the 5000+ list. The country was “tacked on” as part of the name (thus a computer would consider it unique, non-duplicate).
Specific List of 5000+ Protestant Denominations
Phil P
Download the data, see the field names yourself, these are:
Name of denomination, COUNTRY of denomination, number of total congregations for that denom, number of affiliated Christians for that denom, and the denom “mega-bloc” (RC, Orth, Prot, Indy, Marginal, or Anglican).
Both the 9000 and 33000 (now closer to 40000) total denoms is indeed worldwide global data, all 242 countries in the world are included.
5000+ is supposed to be the non-duplicated Protestant/Indy/Anglican names of the 9000 – although it appears my program missed quite a few duplicates since the country name was simply “tacked on” as part of the name, these would have to be removed beforehand by me manually.
For example, in the A’s:
Anglican Church (D Antigua)
Anglican Church (D Cyprus & the Gulf)
Anglican Church (D Egypt L & N)
Anglican Church (D Egypt)
Anglican Church (D Europe)
Anglican Church (D Guyana)
Anglican Church (D Jamaica)
Anglican Church (D Kuching)
Anglican Church (D Mauritius)
Anglican Church (D Nassau & B)
Anglican Church (D Papua & New Guinea)
Anglican Church (D Polynesia)
Anglican Church (D Singapore)
Anglican Church (D Virgin Islands)
Anglican Church (D Windward Is)
Anglican Church (D Windward Isles)
Are these really “separate denominations” of Anglicans? Probably not. To be fair, if I remove all 242 RCs because that is really one “Roman Catholic” denomination, I should remove these duplicate Anglicans as well. This appears to be the case with a couple dozen others if you scan the 5000+ list. The country was “tacked on” as part of the name (thus a computer would consider it unique, non-duplicate).
Specific List of 5000+ Protestant Denominations
Phil P
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Teflon93
Guest
Phil, I’m not seeing anybody else step up to parse the list and offer a “correct” number.
Did I miss some posts wherein somebody who’s complained vehemently about the 33,000 number has scrubbed your list, posted theirs, and provided an alternate number for consideration?
Did I miss some posts wherein somebody who’s complained vehemently about the 33,000 number has scrubbed your list, posted theirs, and provided an alternate number for consideration?
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