Reformers:1) SS is right, 2) The Bible is wrong...

[JRKH]

Hello, Im Frankie . I have done study on this issue and can tell you that the books that Luther took out originally while making his German translation was Hebrew,James, Jude, Revelations,Judith,parts of Esther and Daniel, Sirach, Baruch,1st and 2nd maccabee ,Wisdom,Tobit,. These books all interfered with the myth of SOLO FIDE(by faith alone)These books interfered with his agenda .Also , (you said you were not interested but I thought you might like to know at least where it came from )in Romans 3:28 is where it says “we are saved by faith apart from the works of the law(Jewish Law.)” Luther added the word “alone”
in between the words faith and apart, adding a whole knew meaning to the verse.I have underlined specific verses in each of the above books that could the reasoning for his illimanation of these books.
God Bless

Frankie,
Welcome to the Forums.
I will be looking forward to your futher participation in this discussion.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

How is it we are delving into baptism on a thread focusing on Sola Scriptura and Luther? There is a plethora of information on this site for you to absorb which will readily provide you with the knowledge that water baptism is a necessary application of the Spirit of God within the believer. Perhaps we can continue to strive to keep the focus of the thread where the OP wants it to be.

Blessings.

Steve,
I have been away for a couple of days and it appears that the thread is so far afield at this point that it is beyond caring much about the OP question.
My oridinal intent was simply to discover whether I could make a legitimate claim, historically, that Luther FIRST claimed the idea of SS and THEN changed the Bible.
It appears that we can make such claim legitimately, especially since the first Reformations bibles appear to have included the Deutero’s but in a seperate section.

Anyway - Back to the “free for all”.

Peace
James

 

[Drawmack]

Do we agree that both Catholics and Sola Scripturists claim that the doctrine of baptism can be argued from Scripture? If yes, I agree.

Certainly, after all Jesus, Himself, was Baptized and his preaching didn’t begin until after that time.

Are you saying that because Catholics also use Sacred Tradition to develop the doctrine, that therefore the debate over baptism from Scripture is relevant to the validity of Sola Scriptura? If yes, I disagree.

Not really. What I was actually saying is that Baptism is an excellent example of a sacrament that actually is scripturally based. Thus this example can be contrasted with other sacraments to show that they are not scripturally based. I’ve deleted your next paragraph of questions because they all seemed to be based on a false premise about the point I was making.

It doesn’t matter which doctrine, which sacrament, which teaching you wish to debate from Scripture, Drawmack…when the dust settles from all that debating, the only thing remaining is the question over whose interpretation we are going to accept…the individual who is outside of the apostolic Tradition of the Church Christ founded, or the Church Herself. Catholics will always side with the Church. And the point is…you should too…everyone should. Because that’s where the truth resides.

Of course, you believe I should side with Catholic Church – you’re Catholic. Here’s what I’m saying. Apologize me in this apologetics forum. Explain to me how the basis of all seven sacraments being instituted by Christ is scriptural in nature.

No…you clearly don’t “get it now”. Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Church is the embodiment (Body) of Christ. He and the Church are inseparably joined. With the protection of the Spirit, the movements of the Church directly reflect the movements of Christ Himself. From the Catechism:

779 The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine.

IV. THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC

857 The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:

• she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles,"the witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;

• with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching, the “good deposit,” the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;

• she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ’s return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, “assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church’s supreme pastor” * (CCC)*

I’m not interested in the Catechism. I’m interested in where this can be found in Scripture. Show me where in Scripture it says that anything the Church does can be viewed as being done by Christ which is the statement you made when I asked you to show me how Christ instituted confirmation.

 

[mdcpensive1]

You are mistaken about Sola Scriptura. The question is do we get Truth from Scripture or from Scripture and Tradition. Sola Scriptura says that it is only through Scripture. Thus it does relate to the sacraments

Drawmack, Jesus during His earthly life taught His apostles what they needed to know about the Church He would be building. He did this by teaching them by example and by word. He did not write further instructions for them. When the Spirit came to them on Pentecost to give further grace and strengh, they then went out on their mission. Christ gave them the deposit of His faith for us not through written means but through His teachings. This is the way the apostles taught and warned us of the false teachers that did and will come in the future. When the apostles could not travel to places they needed to to either give testimony, settle arguments or to admonish irregular practices they wrote letters, many of them being defined as Scripture. Four of these letters were Gospels which show the history of Christ during His stay with us.

Scripture can only come from the Traditions that Christ gave us which is the deposit of faith given to us for our salvation. There is no controversy between Tradition and Scripture because they are the same in that they come from the same source.

It seems to me that to deny Tradition and to see only Scripture is to only accept part of what Christ gave us. A partial understanding of the faith can bring misunderstandings of the written word because of the short-sightedness of the FULLNESS of the faith. You can quote 2 Tim 3:16 about the profitableness of the Scriptures, but for those that want to know Christ more fully we need to know more than just the words of Scripture. How you personally interpret Scripture can never be guaranteed to be the truth as Christ taught it because you and I have not been given the authority to speak in the name of Christ and bind that interpretation as if He is speaking to us with His mouth.

Many non-Catholics do not see Scripture as showing us there is an organization that guides Christ’s Church in temporal affairs and mediates Christ’s Graces for us in the Sacraments that is apostolic and continues with offices. I can only hope one day that all can partake in all that Christ wanted for us as a sign of the unity He wants for us.

Another problem with SS is the idea that situations come up in faith and morals that are not talked about in Scripture. What about cloning? What about abortion? What about the Vietnamese war? How does one deal with moral issues when only SS is the rule of the day? It is only because we as the Catholic Church have been blessed with the magisterial body to reflect on the situation and see how it applies to the Traditions handed down by Christ and by wisdom of the Holy Spirit operating in the Church continually.

Another issue would be the Council of Jerusalem in Acts. The apostles wrote a document that would be taken back to Asia Minor concerning the Jewish customs for new Jewish converts to Christianity. Since this document is not scripture, (Luther did not list it in his list of books), SS would not take it seriously and disregard it.

Food for thought and I am praying for you.

mdcpensive1

 

[Michael_Francis]

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