Refusing Service on Religious Grounds

[kelvinf]

I don’t know why that is so confusing. If a Catholic business owner is going to tell a gay couple that they aren’t going to provide them service because it goes against their religion, then they should do the same to people who are doing other things that goes against church teaching. Period. If you are going to provide a service for the person that isn’t going to have a valid marrige in the church, but NOT provide a service to the gay couple you are being a bigot. Stand firm in all the the teachings or none at all. I don’t have a problem with people saying that they don’t want to provide certain services, just don’t pick and choose.

I didn’t understand what you meant by “[a couple] who is going to the court house”

Not all sins are equal and therefore one’s conscience would not react the same to different situations. While an individual can rightly deny a service to someone using their service to promote adultery for instance, the person might not deny the same service to someone who didn’t attend mass one Sunday.

Sorry, people have their freedom to make decisions as their conscience permits. It’s not your position to tell people not to choose and pick. Catholic institutions do this big time.

Go tell the Red Cross to stop refusing to accept blood from gay men; that they don’t have the right to choose and pick.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

No it isn’t. My husband wasn’t there for the cake tasting or when I went to the florists. He was half way around the world. No one asked me what he looked like or if he was a he. If someone comes in and says they need a cake, would you ask them if they were gay?

Also, it would be so painfully obvious for the gay couple.

Even if they had their straight friends go in to buy the cake for them, once the cake bakers hears two male names or two female names on the cake the cats out of the bag. No questioning involved.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Also, it would be so painfully obvious for the gay couple.

Even if they had their straight friends go in to buy the cake for them, once the cake bakers hears two male names or two female names on the cake the cats out of the bag. No questioning involved.

Who puts names on wedding cakes? I’ve never been to a wedding with first names on the cake. I have seen a last name on a cake, but never two first names.

If Sally goes in and says she needs a cake that says congrats Terry and Shannon, that could be two guys, two girls, or a guy and a girl.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Who puts names on wedding cakes? I’ve never been to a wedding with first names on the cake. I have seen a last name on a cake, but never two first names.

If Sally goes in and says she needs a cake that says congrats Terry and Shannon, that could be two guys, two girls, or a guy and a girl.

Eh, its my understanding that the couple were open with the baker. That says it all. Baker has every right to refuse services. Every right.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

I didn’t understand what you meant by “[a couple] who is going to the court house”

Not all sins are equal and therefore one’s conscience would not react the same to different situations. While an individual can rightly deny a service to someone using their service to promote adultery for instance, the person might not deny the same service to someone who didn’t attend mass one Sunday.

Sorry, people have their freedom to make decisions as their conscience permits. It’s not your position to tell people not to choose and pick. Catholic institutions do this big time.

Go tell the Red Cross to stop refusing to accept blood from gay men; that they don’t have the right to choose and pick.

I don’t understand what the Red Cross and giving blood has to do with making a flower arrangement for a couple who isn’t having a valid marriage and then turning around not making a flower arrangement for another couple who isn’t having a valid marriage.
No, not all sins are equal, but a second marriage without an annulment = mortal sin
SSM would = mortal sin. Sooooo, yeah.
You aren’t going to change my mind.

 

[Julianna]

Also, it would be so painfully obvious for the gay couple.

Even if they had their straight friends go in to buy the cake for them, once the cake bakers hears two male names or two female names on the cake the cats out of the bag. No questioning involved.

Funny, my husband and my name were not written on our wedding cake. Most wedding cakes do not have “names” on them. It is also popular now days not to have the bride/groom characters on the top. I have been to weddings where there were flowers on the top, or initials…

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Funny, my husband and my name were not written on our wedding cake. Most wedding cakes do not have “names” on them. It is also popular now days not to have the bride/groom characters on the top. I have been to weddings where there were flowers on the top, or initials…

Sorry i dont know much about wedding customs, never been married im only 16 lol. Please forgive me.

But when you see a gay couple ask about a wedding cake, you know its not just for card playing and cigar smoking. Its so obvious, unlike divorced heterosexual couple.

 

[BettyBoop416]

Also, it would be so painfully obvious for the gay couple.

Even if they had their straight friends go in to buy the cake for them, once the cake bakers hears two male names or two female names on the cake the cats out of the bag. No questioning involved.

What if the couples names were Pat and Terry?

 

[CradleJourney]

There have been several threads lately about Christian business owners refusing service to same sex couples based on their religious convictions. There seems to be a lot of support for this concept.

I have been on the fence about this, but have come to the conclusion that (in my opinion, worth only what you pay for it,) they should not be refused service - except where that service specifically publicly promotes the behavior/belief that goes against the business owner’s religious convictions.

So - should the business owner serve the gay couples wedding? Yes. Providing the same service they do to other people who are purchasing the good/service for a wedding. Should the Muslim taxi driver have to take the fare? Yes, again providing the regular service they provide other individuals.

However - should a business owner be forced to print up a sign for a gay rally (or Planned Parenthood, or the KKK) - no. Should the Muslim taxi driver be forced to put a beer ad on the side of his cab - no.

I can see where some will argue that a wedding is promoting what they are against. However, I don’t feel that this is (usually) the intent of the couple getting married (unless it was part of a reality tv show). Ditto for the guy bringing a bottle of wine home to his wife riding in a cab.

Creating 2,000 pro-choice (or conversely pro-life) t-shirts, making a 8’ x 20’ white supremist banner, doing the floral arrangement on a support gay marriage parade float - these are things that I could see being able to be refused on the grounds of religious belief (because they are a refusal to promote an idea, not a refusal directed at who someone is).

Sorry if my wording is strained. I sometimes lack the gift for communicating clearly the precise idea I have in my brain. Perhaps I could phrase it like this: One should not judge an individual and refuse to render service based on their religious or moral beliefs, however, one should be protected from being forced to help publicly advertise the religious or moral beliefs of a particular group that goes against one’s own religion.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Sorry i dont know much about wedding customs, never been married im only 16 lol. Please forgive me.

But when you see a gay couple ask about a wedding cake, you know its not just for card playing and cigar smoking. Its so obvious, unlike divorced heterosexual couple.

Or it could be a guy and his best man going in to figure out a cake.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

A lot of people are posting personal opinions. In the U.S., there are definite laws that address these issues. If you are providing a service to the general public, if you hold certain licenses, etc., they will determine whether or not and/or how you can discriminate. If you belong to a private organization, or a religious organization, the rules that apply are different.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I think a business should be able to decide how to conduct their own business. If they do not wish to serve a patron due to religious differences, it is within their right. Matters not to me if it’s a Catholic, a Muslim, a Buddhist or even an atheist. Their business will rise or fall based on their decisions. We have plenty of choices here. Why spend time trying to force round pegs into square holes when you can go where the services you require can be obtained? Seems to be a lot of litigiousness and greed behind much of what is going on. Going so far as to seek out the place where you know you will be denied, then hiring an attorney and going on TV so you can wail and complain about your rights being violated with big dollar signs in their eyes.

I don’t know how many people are seeking out places that they know will be denied. I think in most of these cases the people show up and are denied service.

If you think a business should be able to do whatever they want then should the be able to refuse service to African-Americans as well?

Unjust discrimination is immoral.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I didn’t understand what you meant by “[a couple] who is going to the court house”

Not all sins are equal and therefore one’s conscience would not react the same to different situations. While an individual can rightly deny a service to someone using their service to promote adultery for instance, the person might not deny the same service to someone who didn’t attend mass one Sunday.

Sorry, people have their freedom to make decisions as their conscience permits. It’s not your position to tell people not to choose and pick. Catholic institutions do this big time.

Go tell the Red Cross to stop refusing to accept blood from gay men; that they don’t have the right to choose and pick.

The Red Cross does not refuse blood from homosexuals, it refuses blood from people that have homosexual sex, because this has a high risk of blood borne diseases.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Eh, its my understanding that the couple were open with the baker. That says it all. Baker has every right to refuse services. Every right.

I don’t think so. If you are going to conduct business in the public square, you cannot pick and choose who you serve. You have a right to your conscience, but you do not have a right to discriminate.

 

[kelvinf]

I don’t understand what the Red Cross and giving blood has to do with making a flower arrangement for a couple who isn’t having a valid marriage and then turning around not making a flower arrangement for another couple who isn’t having a valid marriage.
No, not all sins are equal, but a second marriage without an annulment = mortal sin
SSM would = mortal sin. Sooooo, yeah.
You aren’t going to change my mind.

Are you specifically talking about flower arrangements or providing services in general?

How a florist decides in the case you mentioned is pretty up to the florist. Gay marriage is worse than an invalid marriage. You can’t compare the two. The damages done to a child in a marriage that involves someone who has divorced and remarried can’t be compared to the damages done to a child who has intentionally been denied a parent of the opposite sex.

Mortal sin = mortal sin does not mean that they are basically the same or that they have the same effects. No! Divorce and remarriage for instance is not the same as same sex relationship. They are significantly different. A sexual relationship between 2 persons of the same sex is always abnormal, repugnant and immoral. Sexual relationship between persons of opposite sexes could be immoral but by itself not abnormal. A fundamental aspect of marriage is to raise and cater for the wellbeing of offsprings. While someone who has divorced and remarried can still do this, a child in a same sex relationship is being discriminated against from day one. So they are definitely not the same thing.

Who wants you to change your mind? You are the one telling folks here “just don’t pick and choose.”

But I will tell you again that the Church does exactly that. They don’t treat all cases the same, but rather, case by case.

 

[kelvinf]

The Red Cross does not refuse blood from homosexuals, it refuses blood from people that have homosexual sex, because this has a high risk of blood borne diseases.

What I said is a fact. Maybe I shouldn’t have specifically referred to the Red Cross. Gay men can’t donate blood anywhere in this country because they fall under the high risk group.

I don’t think so. If you are going to conduct business in the public square, you cannot pick and choose who you serve. You have a right to your conscience, but you do not have a right to discriminate.

How can you have a right to your conscience but cannot act according to that right? The two don’t go together. So you are basically saying that providing a service takes precedence over freedom of conscience?

 

[Julianna]

A lot of people are posting personal opinions. In the U.S., there are definite laws that address these issues. If you are providing a service to the general public, if you hold certain licenses, etc., they will determine whether or not and/or how you can discriminate. If you belong to a private organization, or a religious organization, the rules that apply are different.

 

[Julianna]

Are you specifically talking about flower arrangements or providing services in general?

How a florist decides in the case you mentioned is pretty up to the florist. **Gay marriage is worse than an invalid marriage. **You can’t compare the two. The damages done to a child in a marriage that involves someone who has divorced and remarried can’t be compared to the damages done to a child who has intentionally been denied a parent of the opposite sex.

**Mortal sin = mortal sin **does not mean that they are basically the same or that they have the same effects. No! Divorce and remarriage for instance is not the same as same sex relationship. They are significantly different. A sexual relationship between 2 persons of the same sex is always abnormal, repugnant and immoral. Sexual relationship between persons of opposite sexes could be immoral but by itself not abnormal. A fundamental aspect of marriage is to raise and cater for the wellbeing of offsprings. While someone who has divorced and remarried can still do this, a child in a same sex relationship is being discriminated against from day one. So they are definitely not the same thing.

Who wants you to change your mind? You are the one telling folks here “just don’t pick and choose.”

But I will tell you again that the Church does exactly that. They don’t treat all cases the same, but rather, case by case.

Unless they are Catholic. Everyone does not view gay marriage as a worse mortal sin, if they have no concept of the tenants of the Catholic faith.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

The Red Cross does not refuse blood from homosexuals, it refuses blood from people that have homosexual sex, because this has a high risk of blood borne diseases.

Keep in mind that this is those who have engaged in it even ever.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Keep in mind that this is those who have engaged in it even ever.

Correct; it’s not just those that those who identify themselves as gay, but those that have engaged in that type of sex. It doesn’t stop there either. It can be having sex with others of the opposite sex in certain parts of the world (e.g., Thai prostitutes, etc.), and various other situations.