Refuting Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah

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I’ve come across some Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah, so I was wondering if anyone could refute the arguments. Here are two links with these claims: ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm and http://jdstone.org/cr/files/whyyoushouldnotbelieveinjesus.html

Here is a quote from a forum that someone posted:
This qualification of the Messiah was not met in Jesus for 3 main reasons:
  1. Joseph was not Jesus’ father because it was a virgin birth.
  2. Joseph could not pass the rights of David to Jesus through adoption because of Jeconia’s curse that none of his descendants could sit on the throne. (see below for cites.)
  3. Mary has 3 strikes against her lineage
    a. She also had the cursed Jeconia in her lineage.
    b. Luke goes back to Joseph’s lineage, not Mary
    c. Mary does not descend through Solomon, as the Messiah must (see below for cites)
The very idea that Jesus was a “Blue Blooded” royal Jew and only a Blue Blood, like Prince Charles or something, was fit to be the king goes against everything the United States stands for. But that is an aside. The real problem is that Jesus did not meet the qualification of being from the line of David.
The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David. In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption. There are two problems with this claim:

a) There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30)
Christians know that claiming the Davidic line through Joseph is impossible so they then resort desperately to Mary’s line who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke, but this is impossible for 4 reasons:
a) There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy again!, not Mary’s.

b) Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Numbers 1:18; ****"and they assembled all the congregation together on the (A)first of the second month Then they registered by (**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers 1:18;&version=49;#cen-NASB-3623B”))ancestry in their families, by their fathers’ households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head, "Ezra 2:59. “Now these are those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan and Immer, but they were not able to give evidence of their fathers’ households and their descendants, whether they were of Israel:”
c) Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-109’Behold, a son will be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and (K)I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side; for (L)his name shall be [a]Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. (M)He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’ So Solomon’s descendents were to sit on the throne over Israel forever. Any Mary did not come through Solomon, she came through David’s other son, Nathan.
The third chapter of Luke is irrelevant to this discussion because it describes lineage of David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
d) Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. Because Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

In short, none of the Messiah prophecy matters because Jesus is not the Blue Blooded Royal like a Prince Charles that he had to be in order to be the Messiah.
I would really appreciate if you could provide a refutation of these claims or direct me to someone who could.

Thanks.
 
I’ve come across some Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah, so I was wondering if anyone could refute the arguments. Here are two links with these claims: ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm and http://jdstone.org/cr/files/whyyoushouldnotbelieveinjesus.html

Here is a quote from a forum that someone posted:
I would really appreciate if you could provide a refutation of these claims or direct me to someone who could.

Thanks.
Hi, DylanO!

…from my personal experience, both on this forum and others, you will never provide them with enough insight to help them believe.

They reason from human understanding, and they reason selectively; they ignore that everything that prophecies say about the Messiah have had to have taken place since all of the conditions are beyond being met in their “futuristic” messiah: i.e: Roman Empire, Temple worship, Crucifixion, gathering the Jews from all nations, inclusion of the Gentiles in Yahweh God’s Kingdom, the Lord Coming to His Temple…

These conditions can never ever be met (again) unless they truly contort the Old Testament Writings to mean anything and everything (as that “messiah” that came from the USSR a few years ago and ended up dying in a hospital bed)–and never mind that Israel is a sovereign nation (supported by the greatest military and financial power on earth, a situation that will not easily change) that hardly needs a “savior.”

If you truly want to pursuit this matter I suggest you contact EWTN (Fr. Mitch Pacha S. J. or that gentleman from a program that speaks of the Jewish roots of Catholicism–I forget the name and the title of the program).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, DylanO!

…from my personal experience, both on this forum and others, you will never provide them with enough insight to help them believe.

They reason from human understanding, and they reason selectively; they ignore that everything that prophecies say about the Messiah have had to have taken place since all of the conditions are beyond being met in their “futuristic” messiah: i.e: Roman Empire, Temple worship, Crucifixion, gathering the Jews from all nations, inclusion of the Gentiles in Yahweh God’s Kingdom, the Lord Coming to His Temple…

These conditions can never ever be met (again) unless they truly contort the Old Testament Writings to mean anything and everything (as that “messiah” that came from the USSR a few years ago and ended up dying in a hospital bed)–and never mind that Israel is a sovereign nation (supported by the greatest military and financial power on earth, a situation that will not easily change) that hardly needs a “savior.”

If you truly want to pursuit this matter I suggest you contact EWTN (Fr. Mitch Pacha S. J. or that gentleman from a program that speaks of the Jewish roots of Catholicism–I forget the name and the title of the program).

Maran atha!

Angel
Hi, jcrichton!

Well, I wasn’t really planning on using a refutation of this to debate. I was hoping someone could refute these arguments for me because these claims against Jesus are somewhat causes doubts. That said I really would appreciate some help in regards to this issue.

May God bless you, friend. 🙂
 
Hi, jcrichton!

Well, I wasn’t really planning on using a refutation of this to debate. I was hoping someone could refute these arguments for me because these claims against Jesus are somewhat causes doubts. That said I really would appreciate some help in regards to this issue.

May God bless you, friend. 🙂
Hi, DylanO!

Do you mean, refute the issue on this very site or on the cited sites?

I would be willing to work with you on this site; if the other sites are Catholic I would be willing to do the same there, but only if they are Catholic.

If you are interested in discussing the issue here, do you prefer a run down (top to bottom) or are there any particular points that you would wish to address first?

May God bless you too, my friend!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, DylanO!

Do you mean, refute the issue on this very site or on the cited sites?

I would be willing to work with you on this site; if the other sites are Catholic I would be willing to do the same there, but only if they are Catholic.

If you are interested in discussing the issue here, do you prefer a run down (top to bottom) or are there any particular points that you would wish to address first?

May God bless you too, my friend!

Maran atha!

Angel
Hi, jcrichton!

I meant on here, those I posted are Jewish sites that attempt to ‘prove’ that Jesus isn’t the Messiah. I would prefer a run down (top to bottom) of all the main issues if thats alright.

Thanks for your help! 🙂
 
I’m not Jewish, but how do we know that Jesus is the true Messiah? How do we know that someone didn’t just take a persons documents and forge it to look like a supernatural being or the messiah.
 
Hi, jcrichton!

I meant on here, those I posted are Jewish sites that attempt to ‘prove’ that Jesus isn’t the Messiah. I would prefer a run down (top to bottom) of all the main issues if thats alright.

Thanks for your help! 🙂
Hi, DylanO!

I will do my best to help you with the list. I’ll start working on it tomorrow.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I’m not Jewish, but how do we know that Jesus is the true Messiah? How do we know that someone didn’t just take a persons documents and forge it to look like a supernatural being or the messiah.
Hi, charlie!

…you are correct… there could have been tampering…

…were Jesus not the Messiah several things would have to happen:
  • remove the totality of the Church
  • remove all of the Sacred Writings, not just the New Testament but the Old Testament as well
  • remove Faith from every single person in the world and those that have ever existed
  • abcribe to the various theories that propose that all that exists is a serious of eons of accidents waiting for eons of just-right conditions waiting for eons of chance happenings
I suggest that you begin by reading Hebrews 11.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
just offhand, i thought the line that a priest has never been able to pass his priesthood onto an adopted child was interesting.

i am drawing a bit of a blank here so some one please correct me if i am wrong but…

didn’t samuel inherit the priesthood from eli? samuel was not his natural son, but eli takes him in and begins to call him his son. eli’s other sons all screw up (in many ways) and it is samuel (i believe) who inherits the priesthood.

interesting (if i am correct) that the one who seems to refute that argument is the one who is called by God to crown david as king.
 
It seems odd to see a Jewish source with these kind of objects.

Should not Esau have inherited the blessings of Abraham? He was the oldest. Therefore Israel is not the chosen people.

Did not God offer Moses the option of killing all Israel and raising up a new people (Israel II)?

God does not work in man’s ways, we have to follow God.

We have what the Word of God said, we have the resurrection to verify that this was True. We have the he was known to be of the house of David.

If the Jews do NOT accept the Virgin Birth, then they cannot argue the line did not come via Joseph as he would then be the father. If they do accept the Virgin Birth, then it could come via Mary as God had intervened and some rule would need to be modified. If they accept the Virgin Birth, Jesus is not a Jew as he did not have a Jewish father (he is in NO TRIBE).

The site is just being silly, poking a little fun. I think we should just let God do what He wants and not tell Him where He made His mistakes or else we need to ask Him to destroy all creation and try it again. Get it right this time God!!! :eek:
 
If the Jews do NOT accept the Virgin Birth, then they cannot argue the line did not come via Joseph as he would then be the father. If they do accept the Virgin Birth, then it could come via Mary as God had intervened and some rule would need to be modified. If they accept the Virgin Birth, Jesus is not a Jew as he did not have a Jewish father (he is in NO TRIBE).
Well, obviously, being Jewish, I don’t believe in the story at all but, just to be technical . . .

Whoever his father was, Jesus would be Jewish if his mother was Jewish - being Jewish is matrilinear.
 
Can someone please refute these claims?..they are quite discontenting…
 
I’ve come across some Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah, so I was wondering if anyone could refute the arguments. Here are two links with these claims: ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm and http://jdstone.org/cr/files/whyyoushouldnotbelieveinjesus.html

Here is a quote from a forum:
Quote:
This qualification of the Messiah was not met in Jesus for 3 main reasons:
  1. Joseph was not Jesus’ father because it was a virgin birth.
  2. Joseph could not pass the rights of David to Jesus through adoption because of Jeconia’s curse that none of his descendants could sit on the throne. (see below for cites.)
  3. Mary has 3 strikes against her lineage
    a. She also had the cursed Jeconia in her lineage.
    b. Luke goes back to Joseph’s lineage, not Mary
    c. Mary does not descend through Solomon, as the Messiah must (see below for cites)
Hi, DylanO!

Searching for the Messiah:
For some incomprehensible reason, the Jews continue to seek for an earth bound prince, messiah, king, prophet; they confine themselves to the ideals of man. Before Israel had an earthly king Yahweh God was their King–He felt betrayed that they should change His Glory for that of man; still, He allowed them their whim (1 Samuel 8:1 thru 10:27-- check vs 8:6-9).

Saul, after becoming Israel’s 1st king is quickly replaced by David, who is also a prophet; David is succeeded by Salomon. But David is not the original receptor of Yahweh’s Promise so we cannot rest on David’s “Blue” to forge the Messiah. Yet when we search the OT accounts here’s what we find: Joseph, the son of the Promise, marries Asenath, an Egyptian woman, and has two sons with her (Gn 41:44-52). We see that from the very beginning the “Blue” had been tainted.

Did Yahweh God make a mistake or does He aspire to greater things from us than “blue blood?”

Let’s look at the points they’ve missed:
  • Yahweh makes a Promise (Abram to Abraham; Gn 17)
  • Ismael, Abram’s first born of Hagar, is not of the Promise (Gn 16)
  • Isaac, the son of the Promise is born (Gn 21:1-8)
  • Promise goes to Jacob, 2nd born (Gn 25:19-34; 27; Mal 1:2-3)
  • Promise goes to Ephraim also 2nd (Gn 48:8-20)
Did the priest/prophets fair differently?
  • Moses’ successor was Joshua, not his son (Dt 34:7-12; Jos 1)
  • Heli’s sons? No: Samuel (1 Sm 2:30-36; 3:1-20)
  • Elijah’s? Nope: Elisah (2 Kgs 2:22)
Info quoted on Jesus’ lineage: Jehoichin is one of many cited, Jeconia is not mentioned at all, and Solomon loses God’s favor (1 Kngs 11:1-13–spec vs 10-13).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30)

Could someone PLEASE refute the above? I am terribly ashamed of faith being shaken so easily. I checked the above verses. It seems to contradict. But can’t can it? God preserve my faith!
 
Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30)

Could someone PLEASE refute the above? I am terribly ashamed of faith being shaken so easily. I checked the above verses. It seems to contradict. But can’t can it? God preserve my faith!
I know exactly how you feel, after hearing about these things this shook my faith as well. But don’t give up, friend. With a little truth-seeking and patience we will find the answer.

As to the curse of Jeconiah, according to the information I’ve found on this site here: christian-thinktank.com/fabprof4.html, it looks like The curse on Jeconiah was reversed:
Many commentators understand the curse to have been rescinded by God in Haggai anyway:

“Jehoiachin’s name appears in Matthew’s genealogy of Jesus Christ (1:11, 12), and some contend this contradicts Jeremiah’s oracle of judgment against the king’s descendants (Jer 22:30). Yet it is possible to understand Haggai’s blessing of Zerubabbel (2:20–24) as the rescission of Jeremiah’s curse and the reinstatement of Jehoiachin’s line on the Davidic (and ultimately Messianic) throne (cf. Is 56:3–5).” [Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible.].
Code:
Rabbinic tradition generally agrees with this as well:
for no man of his seed shall prosper -In this, too, no man of his seed shall prosper, namely that no one will occupy the throne of David nor rule in Judah. Although we find that Zerubbabel, his great grandson, did rule over Judah upon the return of the exiles, the Rabbis (Pesikta /'Rav Kahana p. 163a) state that this : ‘was because Jehoiachin repented in prison. They state further: Repentance is great, for it nullifies a person’s sentence, as it is stated: inscribe this man childless.’ But since he repented, his sentence was revoked and turned to the good, and he said to him, “I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you a signet” (Haggai 2:23). They state further: Said Rabbi Johanan: Exile expiates all sins, as it is said: Inscribe this man childless,” and after he was exiled, it IS written: '(I Chron. 3:17) And the sons of Jeconiah, Assir, Shealtiel his son–Redak" Judaica Books of the Prophets, in loc]

[Notice how this parallels the known case of Manasseh, the evil Davidic king who was exiled by Assyria to its southern province in Babylon, and who then repented and was restored to rulership in Judah–2 Chron 33.10-13.]

This highly-probable understanding completely removes any problem with Jeconiah in anyone’s geneaology. And thus we do not really even NEED any ‘additional’ lineage ‘around him’, to establish legitimate Davidic-dynastic heritage.
I pray this helps you! 🙂
 
What I’m confused about is the claim that the Messiah must be a descendant of Solomon. I already know that the genealogy Luke gives is of Mary, while the one in the Gospel of Matthew is of Joseph but, this skeptic is saying that the Messiah has to be descended from King David via Solomon for which he cites 1 Chronicles 22:7-10. So, basically he is saying is that because Mary, whose genealogy is listed in Luke, is not descended from Solomon but from Nathan that this is ‘proof’ that Jesus isn’t the Messiah.

I would really be appreciative if someone could provide a refutation of this.
 
just offhand, i thought the line that a priest has never been able to pass his priesthood onto an adopted child was interesting.

i am drawing a bit of a blank here so some one please correct me if i am wrong but…

didn’t samuel inherit the priesthood from eli? samuel was not his natural son, but eli takes him in and begins to call him his son. eli’s other sons all screw up (in many ways) and it is samuel (i believe) who inherits the priesthood.

interesting (if i am correct) that the one who seems to refute that argument is the one who is called by God to crown david as king.
Hi, bengal fan!

…you are correct!

As with John the Baptist, it is God who determines how His Salvific Plan will develop–Samuel and John were called to annoint their respective king and King! Both were called out of their lives into the Service of Yahweh God.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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