K
Kaninchen
Guest
Oh Joy!It’s a new millennia!!
- Status
B
Bean61
Guest
I’m glad we agree!
B
Bean61
Guest
Where would you like to start?
Please pick something that can be proved in less than three days.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’m afraid I’ve been around religion message boards for well over a decade and I’m still trying to think of such a subject.Where would you like to start?
Please pick something that can be proved in less than three days.
B
Bean61
Guest
Jesus Christ, as are all ordained Catholic priests, is of the order of Melchiesadek. The Jews’ priests are from the tribe of Levi.I’m afraid I’ve been around religion message boards for well over a decade and I’m still trying to think of such a subject.
What is the difference?
Who was Melcheisadek?
I
Icemoon
Guest
Mel is the priest-king from the Christian perspective. Just like Jesus, who fulfilled both roles of High Priest and King.
I guess the role of Mel is abused by Christians who are eager to prove the identity of Jesus as a priest-king. To the Jews, Mel was the one who taught Abraham the ways of Adam his forefather. This is important 'cos Abraham was a convert in that he wasn’t born a believer in God.
V
Valke2
Guest
Melchiesadek according to Judaism is traditionally identified as Noah’s son, Shem, and that he instructed Abraham in Torah. He would have been the ancestor of the priestly class, but he made a mistake and God then made the descendents of Abraham the priests.
M
MementoMori3283
Guest
pardon my intercession, but doesn’t Jewish tradition also claim that one can not be priest, prophet and king?
This being said, and with the knowledge of Christ’s role as such, may I offer from Chabad Lubavitch:
Then he prayed that Shem and Japheth have wisdom and beauty, and great social and cultural achievements. Shem became a prophet of G-d and lived six hundred years, serving G-d as a priest. In the time of Abraham, who was the ninth generation in direct line of descent from Shem, Shem was famous under the name of Malkitzedek, the “Just King,” who brought offerings to G-d. He lived to see the eleventh generation of his descendants (Jacob). Together with his worthy great-grandson Eber, he taught and spread faith in G-d and in His commands in a school which was known as the Academy of Shem and Eber.
The content in this page is produced by Chabad.org, and is copyrighted by the author and/or Chabad.org. If you enjoyed this article, we encourage you to distribute it further, provided that you do not revise any part of it, and you include this note, credit the author, and link to www.chabad.org. If you wish to republish this article in a periodical, book, or website, please email permissions@chabad.org.
What was the mistake of Shem/Malkitzedek?
M
MementoMori3283
Guest
Isn’t Abraham a descendant of Noah and his son Shem!?!
One of the most important persons at Nimrod’s court in Ur of the Chaldees in Babel, or Babylonia, was Terah, the son of Nahor, a great-great grandson of Eber. Terah had three sons, Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
Eber - Great-grandson of Shem. A prophet and righteous man, he headed a school of study together with Shem
The content in this page is produced by Chabad.org, and is copyrighted by the author and/or Chabad.org. If you enjoyed this article, we encourage you to distribute it further, provided that you do not revise any part of it, and you include this note, credit the author, and link to www.chabad.org. If you wish to republish this article in a periodical, book, or website, please email permissions@chabad.org.
V
Valke2
Guest
Yes, Abraham is a descendent of Shem. Shem, however, forfeited the priesthood by mentioning in his blessing Abraham’s name before that of God, so that God took his office from him and gave it to Abraham (Ned. 32b; Pirḳe R. El. xxvii.).
M
MementoMori3283
Guest
What a jealous God have we, or do we make presumptions that we shouldn’t?
R
Roemer_Trock
Guest
A response to the argument that the messiah could not come through the line of Jeconiah (AKA Jehoiachin, Coniah) from the book “What the Rabbis Know About The Messiah”, by Rachmiel Frydland (see below).
Even if Jesus is a descendant of Jehoiachin it does not disqualify him from being Messiah. The Scripture still proves the issue to be a non issue since the curse against Coniah is clearly shown to have been lifted, which therefore shows that Messiah CAN be a descendant of Coniah.
The most concise discussion in which this issue is addressed occurs in chapter 11 of the of little book, What the Rabbis Know about the Messiah, by Rachmiel Frydland. The chapter in which this is discussed is rather short;
Chapter Eleven
Messiah to Descend From Jehoiachin and Zerubabel
Jehoiachin is the grandfather of Zerubabel who was a descendant within the Messianic lineage through Solomon. Both Jehoiachin and Zerubabel are listed within Jesus’s ancestry in the New Testament in the book of Matthew (1:12). Zerubabel also appears in the genealogy of Jesus written by the physician Luke (Luke 3:27).
Matthew’s genealogy traces Jesus through his adoptive father, Joseph; Luke’s genealogy traces Jesus’s ancestry through his mother Miriam’s (Mary’s) side. There is a problem which does occur in the lineage as regarding Jehoiachin, who is also known as Jeconiah (or Coniah). The prophet Jeremiah records a denunciation of him:
Thus sayeth the Lord. Write this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah (Jer. 22:30).
The Scripture appears to pronounce a threefold “curse” upon Jehoiachin:
He would be childless,
He would not prosper,
His offspring would not prosper on the throne of David.
In light of this “curse” there appears to be a great obstacle regarding the Messianic line, and especially Jehoiachin’s inclusion within it. There is widespread opinion that the denunciation of Jehoiachin through God’s prophet was irrevocable. This would effectively preclude him from being within the messianic lineage. Before jumping hastily to this opinion, it is well to examine some arguments against this view.
The first “curse,” that Jehoiachin would remain childless, was definitely lifted. The Tenach (Old Testament) makes it clear that Jehoiachin was, in fact, prolific and sired Shealtiel, Malchiram, Pedaiah, Shenazar, Jekamiah, Hoshana, and Nedabiah, and Asir (I Chron. 3:17-18).
Jehoiachin was king of Judah when the children of Israel were taken captive into Babylon, and was imprisoned there. The second “curse,” that Jehoiachin would be ‘a man that shall not prosper in his days,’ was also ameliorated (improved) by God, for we read:
And it came to pass in the … year of captivity … [the] king of Babylon … did liberate Jehoiachin … from prison; And he … set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon… . (II Kings 25:27-28)
Thereby, if God could forgive Jehoiachin, to the extent of lifting the first two “curses” against him, it is plausible that the third one could be lifted as well; otherwise, Messiah could not descend from Solomon through Jehoiachin. The Yalkut explains that this problem was resolved in the following manner:
Nebuchadnezzar took [Jehoiachin] and put him in prison. … The Jewish religious Council gathered to consider the matter for they feared that the Davidic kingdom would come to an end, of which it is written, ‘His throne shall endure before me as long as the sun’ (Psalm 82:36). What can we do in order to help that the Scriptures might be fulfilled? We will go and plead with the governess, and the governess will plead with the queen and the queen with the king. … Rabbi Shabatal said that [Jehoiachin] did not leave prison until he repented fully and God forgave his sins and … his wife got pregnant as it is written, ‘Shealtiel his son, Asir his son.’
Shealtiel means, “I asked of God.” Asir means “prisoner.” Hence, the rabbis understand that Jehoiachin asked God to forgive him while in prison and that God indicated his forgiveness by giving him sons.
The returning exiles from Babylon in 539 B.C.E. appointed Zerubabel to be their prince. They obviously did not think that the “curse” was still in effect since Zerubabel was a direct descendant of Jehoiachin. Moreover, the post-exilic prophets exalt Zerubabel and place their hopes for Israel in him. Hence, for example, the prophet Zechariah exclaims:
Who are thou, O great mountain? Before Zerubabel thou shalt become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone of it with shoutings… . The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it… . For they shall rejoice and see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel… . (Zechariah 4:7, 9-10)
It is fair, then, to assume that whatever the denunciation against Jehoiachin, it was pardoned by God, even as the king of Babylon pardoned Jehoiachin and released him from prison; thus, the Messiah would not be prevented genealogically from being of the seed of David, Solomon and Hezekiah through Jehoiachin to whom the Messianic promises were given.
… End of quote from book.
Hope this is of any help
Patrick
Even if Jesus is a descendant of Jehoiachin it does not disqualify him from being Messiah. The Scripture still proves the issue to be a non issue since the curse against Coniah is clearly shown to have been lifted, which therefore shows that Messiah CAN be a descendant of Coniah.
The most concise discussion in which this issue is addressed occurs in chapter 11 of the of little book, What the Rabbis Know about the Messiah, by Rachmiel Frydland. The chapter in which this is discussed is rather short;
Chapter Eleven
Messiah to Descend From Jehoiachin and Zerubabel
Jehoiachin is the grandfather of Zerubabel who was a descendant within the Messianic lineage through Solomon. Both Jehoiachin and Zerubabel are listed within Jesus’s ancestry in the New Testament in the book of Matthew (1:12). Zerubabel also appears in the genealogy of Jesus written by the physician Luke (Luke 3:27).
Matthew’s genealogy traces Jesus through his adoptive father, Joseph; Luke’s genealogy traces Jesus’s ancestry through his mother Miriam’s (Mary’s) side. There is a problem which does occur in the lineage as regarding Jehoiachin, who is also known as Jeconiah (or Coniah). The prophet Jeremiah records a denunciation of him:
Thus sayeth the Lord. Write this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah (Jer. 22:30).
The Scripture appears to pronounce a threefold “curse” upon Jehoiachin:
He would be childless,
He would not prosper,
His offspring would not prosper on the throne of David.
In light of this “curse” there appears to be a great obstacle regarding the Messianic line, and especially Jehoiachin’s inclusion within it. There is widespread opinion that the denunciation of Jehoiachin through God’s prophet was irrevocable. This would effectively preclude him from being within the messianic lineage. Before jumping hastily to this opinion, it is well to examine some arguments against this view.
The first “curse,” that Jehoiachin would remain childless, was definitely lifted. The Tenach (Old Testament) makes it clear that Jehoiachin was, in fact, prolific and sired Shealtiel, Malchiram, Pedaiah, Shenazar, Jekamiah, Hoshana, and Nedabiah, and Asir (I Chron. 3:17-18).
Jehoiachin was king of Judah when the children of Israel were taken captive into Babylon, and was imprisoned there. The second “curse,” that Jehoiachin would be ‘a man that shall not prosper in his days,’ was also ameliorated (improved) by God, for we read:
And it came to pass in the … year of captivity … [the] king of Babylon … did liberate Jehoiachin … from prison; And he … set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon… . (II Kings 25:27-28)
Thereby, if God could forgive Jehoiachin, to the extent of lifting the first two “curses” against him, it is plausible that the third one could be lifted as well; otherwise, Messiah could not descend from Solomon through Jehoiachin. The Yalkut explains that this problem was resolved in the following manner:
Nebuchadnezzar took [Jehoiachin] and put him in prison. … The Jewish religious Council gathered to consider the matter for they feared that the Davidic kingdom would come to an end, of which it is written, ‘His throne shall endure before me as long as the sun’ (Psalm 82:36). What can we do in order to help that the Scriptures might be fulfilled? We will go and plead with the governess, and the governess will plead with the queen and the queen with the king. … Rabbi Shabatal said that [Jehoiachin] did not leave prison until he repented fully and God forgave his sins and … his wife got pregnant as it is written, ‘Shealtiel his son, Asir his son.’
Shealtiel means, “I asked of God.” Asir means “prisoner.” Hence, the rabbis understand that Jehoiachin asked God to forgive him while in prison and that God indicated his forgiveness by giving him sons.
The returning exiles from Babylon in 539 B.C.E. appointed Zerubabel to be their prince. They obviously did not think that the “curse” was still in effect since Zerubabel was a direct descendant of Jehoiachin. Moreover, the post-exilic prophets exalt Zerubabel and place their hopes for Israel in him. Hence, for example, the prophet Zechariah exclaims:
Who are thou, O great mountain? Before Zerubabel thou shalt become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone of it with shoutings… . The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it… . For they shall rejoice and see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel… . (Zechariah 4:7, 9-10)
It is fair, then, to assume that whatever the denunciation against Jehoiachin, it was pardoned by God, even as the king of Babylon pardoned Jehoiachin and released him from prison; thus, the Messiah would not be prevented genealogically from being of the seed of David, Solomon and Hezekiah through Jehoiachin to whom the Messianic promises were given.
… End of quote from book.
Hope this is of any help
Patrick
B
Bean61
Guest
Shem was a high priest of Salem. He was probably about 500 years old at the time that he gave bread and wine to Abraham.
Do you honestly think he was so stupid as to insult God? This makes no sense to me.
B
Bean61
Guest
J
jcrichton
Guest
Which foreign nation was Jesus’ birth nation? Which of the Twelve Apostles were non-Jewish? Which of the 120 in the upper room, at Pentecost, were foreigners? Which of the 3000 that the Holy Spirit added to the Believers were foreigners?
Again (the only reason I am responding is to asure you that I understand your confusion–you seem to want to defend the Old Testament Jews from the oppresion of the Christians) the very same God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. Through the various prophets He prophesied against Israel’s rejection of His Authority and He foretold that those that were called His people (Israel) will no longer be called His people; that those who were called not His people (Gentiles/pagans) would be called His people.
No one is keeping the Jews from Yahweh God but they themselves! Their continue rejection of Jesus Christ as their Lord, Savior, King, Messiah, God is what keeps them in their state (lost sheep).
But the beauty of Yahweh God’s Salvific Plan is that He does not want anyone to perish but that all be Saved.
Their rejection of Christ Jesus is foretold but so is their humble return to God–read Romans 9:1 through 11:36.
I do not mind searching the Scriptures and learning from them; but I cannot simply engage in arguments for argument’s sake.
If you truly want to search the Holy Scriptures (both the Old and New Testaments) for answers I am willing to do so; however, if you think that you can persuade me to deny the New Testament (which is denying that Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, came onto the world to Save us) the argument is already at its apex (not going to happen).
Maran atha!
Angel
I
Icemoon
Guest
Maybe Mel was too elated upon seeing Abraham and forgotten about protocol.
After all, Abraham would be the one who will now have the responsibility to preach the faith of Noah.
I
Icemoon
Guest
What a sweeping statement.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Is it not, though? It just goes to show you what the Old Testament Scriptures reveal about Yahweh God’s determinations.What a sweeping statement.
Maran atha!
Angel
I
Icemoon
Guest
Jewish discussion aside, I’m of the opinion if God does not want anyone to perish, He can make it so. Unless you believe there is a rock which is too heavy for Him?
With regards to the Plan (you call it Salvific Plan), Judaism emphasizes on the process, the means; Christians focuses on the result, the end.
This is why the world is as it is, imperfect and in need of perfection. If the goal is for all to be “saved”, then God can certainly make it so.
Personally I’m inclined towards the Reformed understanding of Christianity. It is a calvinist vs arminian divide and the calvinist does not compromise on God’s sovereignity.
I
Icemoon
Guest
You said:
Through the various prophets He prophesied against Israel’s rejection of His Authority and He foretold that those that were called His people (Israel) will no longer be called His people; that those who were called not His people (Gentiles/pagans) would be called His people.
Without checking Scripture, I thought your statement is weird. I assume you are referring to the OT, but then afaik, the OT does not elaborate much on gentiles/pagans. The times they are mentioned, they are almost certainly bad and evil, e.g. baal, canaan etc.
- Status