Refuting Protestant Argument on Word of God

[rinnie]

Okay then why did Jesus leave the Church to Peter and the Apostles, and breath into them the gift of the Holy Spirit and say What my Father gave me I pass on to You, and then told them to go out and teach the word. And what did happen, By the power of the Holy Spirit he became Man. Was Jesus not both human and Divine. Yes you are right on one account we are human, and yes must have the Power of the Holy Spirit, which in fact if you go back you will discover Peter was the first Pope and by the laying of hands passes down the authority that is still seated in Rome. He is indeed the Pope. He does have the Power of the Holy Spirit guiding him to teach us scripture. thats why the church has never changed nor will, it is still the same as always. Jesus PROMISED I will give you the Words, and my church will prevail.

 

[Church_Militant]

No “private interpretation” is the keynote here; so this means there is a correct interpretation

; and the only expositor capable of correctly explaining these prophecies, is the Bible itself. The Bible is it’s own, best expositor. Always has been, always will be.

"Scripture Must Be Its Own Expositor, Since It Is A Rule Of Itself…" Really? Then by all means show me the uniformity of teachings that have resulted from that “best expositor”? I have yet to encounter them, and I don’t believe that you can provide it either.

It’s a fiction that does not exist in n-C theology.

 

[GJx86]

… It’s totally incomparable to putting tradition before God’s word …

But Apostolic Tradition – oral teaching – is God’s word (1 Thess 2:13), and we’re to obey teachings handed to us both in written and oral form (2 Thess 2:15).

We can’t “put Tradition before God’s word,” because Tradition is God’s word. Scripture itself says so.

The other points you mentioned (about Mary and calling priests “father”) should be addressed in other threads.

Would Jesus leave a new religion without everything we needed to know to be saved and please Him?

No, which is why He created a church that could protect His teachings from being transmitted in error, regardless of their method of transmission.

When did Jesus say that only written teachings should be obeyed? And if he said that, then why did Paul give oral teaching to his churches, and why did John say that he would rather speak with his brethren face-to-face than in writing?

 

[mackbrislawn]

That is absolutely NOT true. The problem is not/never the scriptures being unclear, insufficient; etc, the problem is not scripture; it is not a matter of fact that the Protestant Canon is “insufficient” - the only problem is people. The written word is the solution to all of our problems, including ourselves.

It is quite clear enough to prevent all “bickering.”

You’re right, the problem is people. People are fallible. Not scripture. Scripture is infallible. What happens then is that we have fallible people reaching fallible conclusions about infallible scripture. And since the conclusions are fallible, they are different and hence arguments arise.

 

[mackbrislawn]

That is absolutely NOT true. The problem is not/never the scriptures being unclear, insufficient; etc, the problem is not scripture; it is not a matter of fact that the Protestant Canon is “insufficient” - the only problem is people. The written word is the solution to all of our problems, including ourselves.

It is quite clear enough to prevent all “bickering.”

You’re right, the problem is people. People are fallible. Not scripture. Scripture is infallible. What happens then is that we have fallible people reaching fallible conclusions about infallible scripture. And since the conclusions are fallible, they are different and hence arguments arise.

 

[BHTech]

Read the next verse
He’s not saying not to read into the Bible and believe our own readings, he’s saying that the Bible is clear enough not to require interpretation.

Jibb

2 Peter3:15-16

[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Yet Peter is telling us here that some of Pauls writings are hard to understand, but you claim that the Bible is and I quote you (Jibb) “clear enough not to require interpretation.”

Is the word of God no longer valid or do you like to interpret things to suit your own liking?

Protestant101 I am still waiting on an answer from you.

 

[po18guy]

No “private interpretation” is the keynote here; so this means there is a correct interpretation; and the only expositor capable of correctly explaining these prophecies, is the Bible itself. The Bible is it’s own, best expositor. Always has been, always will be.

"Scripture Must Be Its Own Expositor, Since It Is A Rule Of Itself…"

And is the reason that millions run in circles. If it interprets itself, and is perfectly clear, how come your sect arrives at “soul sleep”, “soul annihilation” and “temporary hell” and 32,999 other denominations do not and never have. Thank you.

The peace of Christ, who IS clear, be with you.

 

[po18guy]

2 Peter 3:15-16 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. Yet Peter is telling us here that some of Pauls writings are hard to understand, but you claim that the Bible is and I quote you (Jibb) “clear enough not to require interpretation.”

Is the word of God no longer valid or do you like to interpret things to suit your own liking? Protestant101 I am still waiting on an answer from you.

I wait as well. A “crystal clear” bible would produce a unified church. The Sacred Body of Christ has been pulverized by the spirit of antichrist. It continues, and always will, but evil is all the more powerful against a divided body. Has not the spirit of antichrist lead exactly to the “divided house” that Christ warned about in:

Matthew 12:25
Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.”

Mark 3:25
“If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”

Luke 11:17
Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.”

If Satan’s house is unified, Christ’s house must also be unified, if it is to remain strong. Why did Christ read from Sacred Scripture Himself in the Temple? Why did He not simply tell the Scribes and Pharisees to read it themselves? Clue: They had read it, and twisted it to their own desires, as men did then and men do now.

The One Church, founded by Christ. lead by the Helper, the Advocate, gives proper interpretation. Individuals do not.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

Read the next verse “because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Peter 1:21, RSV)

He’s not saying not to read into the Bible and believe our own readings, he’s saying that the Bible is clear enough not to require interpretation.

It by no means supports the Pope’s (or Church’s) individual authority to interpret the Bible for Christians.

Jibb

You have just privately interpreted scripture. You may not notice when you do this, because it is how you have learned to view the bible. Since neither of us appears insane, and I ascribe honest intentions to you, how can we differ on something so “crystal clear” as scripture? To think you know scripture is to think you know the mind of God. I prefer to listen to those whom He alone has chosen to speak through.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Jibb_Smart]

You have just privately interpreted scripture. You may not notice when you do this, because it is how you have learned to view the bible. Since neither of us appears insane, and I ascribe honest intentions to you, how can we differ on something so “crystal clear” as scripture? To think you know scripture is to think you know the mind of God. I prefer to listen to those whom He alone has chosen to speak through.

Christ’s peace.

Okay, I know this isn’t the only post in reply to mine, but this is easily the best put-forward.

I’m at risk of being late again to uni so I’ll try make this short. I agree some parts aren’t clear, and you make a very good point here. I don’t think it’s the Catholic Church’s role to interpret it for us, as a lot of the interpretations seem way off (hence the Reformation). I’ll try to give examples tonight but I’m very busy at the moment. Probably wasn’t the most ideal time to get caught up in religious discussions with Catholics

Jibb

Edit: though, by discussing my interpretation it is no longer “private” but that in itself is another way of interpreting the Bible.

 

[po18guy]

Okay, I know this isn’t the only post in reply to mine, but this is easily the best put-forward.

I’m at risk of being late again to uni so I’ll try make this short. I agree some parts aren’t clear, and you make a very good point here. I don’t think it’s the Catholic Church’s role to interpret it for us, as a lot of the interpretations seem way off (hence the Reformation). I’ll try to give examples tonight but I’m very busy at the moment. Probably wasn’t the most ideal time to get caught up in religious discussions with Catholics

Jibb

Edit: though, by discussing my interpretation it is no longer “private” but that in itself is another way of interpreting the Bible.

Jibb, trust God to reveal the truth to you as long as you seek it. He has revealed to me the truth of every Catholic teaching that I had problems with, and there were many. I came in at age 35 and He has been most patient with me, slowly revealing the truth of matters I thought I knew. Not surprisingly, the big ones came during scripture study.

Love Jesus with a reckless love and trust God. He will lead you to where you are intended to be. He will fill you beyond your known capacity. He will cause you to be obsessed with Him, as He is with you. He has revealed a faith so profound that numerous lifetimes would be required to probe its depths.

Christ’s peace always remain with you.

 

[BHTech]

Okay, I know this isn’t the only post in reply to mine, but this is easily the best put-forward.

I’m at risk of being late again to uni so I’ll try make this short. I agree some parts aren’t clear, and you make a very good point here. I don’t think it’s the Catholic Church’s role to interpret it for us, as a lot of the interpretations seem way off (hence the Reformation). I’ll try to give examples tonight but I’m very busy at the moment. Probably wasn’t the most ideal time to get caught up in religious discussions with Catholics

Jibb

Edit: though, by discussing my interpretation it is no longer “private” but that in itself is another way of interpreting the Bible.

Hi Jibb

Like Po18guy I am a convert myself and I would follow his advice to you to pray to help you understand Catholic doctrines better. It is only through God’s grace these things come to us.

That said, regarding your comments, please note that the Reformation was not about interpretation of Catholic teachings as you seem to imply. Also as my previous example demonstrates an authoritative body is needed to help the members of the body of Christ understand his word.

Blessings in Christ

BhTech

 

[garysibio]

Hey Protestant101,

You still haven’t answered my last response to you (#195). Don’t you like me anymore?

Gary

 

[Jibb_Smart]

Okay, I would really like to discuss the thing about different interpretations more but today I got way too much work and I have to avoid spending time on this forum for a while.

I’ll try jump back into this discussion after,

Just don’t want those who responded to me thinking I just bailed

Jibb

 

[mackbrislawn]

It is important for us to realize that texts do not provide their own interpretation. They are not self-interpreting–they require interpreters who are the ones who impart meanings to scripture and interpreters all have different ways of looking at and understanding the world. These perspectives affect the way readers understand the text. Texts don’t mean anything by themselves, they have to be read and interpreted and the different world views influence the interpretation. You can’t help this, there is no way around it.
Texts don’t mean anything, they mean what readers say they mean.

 

[rinnie]

If I can put in my 2 cents worth, and that what its worth, but anyway here is what always comes to my mind. Okay now remember when Jesus was talking to the people in parables. and the Apostles asked him why, and he said because we dont understand, and he told the apostles that the only reason they know is because he is with them to explain it to them. Okay now remember where he says there will come a day I will leave you. Then he of course leaves them with the Holy Spirit, and thats who tells them what they need to know. Okay now, think about it, Peter hears they want to kill Jesus, now would we not say the same thing as Peter. I know i would. I would be like hey lets round up the herd and get the flock out of here. But see Peters the one who gets it on this one, He gets accused of being the devil, now people really think Jesus was calling Peter the devil, they dont realize what Jesus was saying (hey Peter you are thinking like the rest of the world) Jesus was harder on Peter because he knew what Peter was going to be left to do. Now does that help on why we cant understand scripture, why the Holy Spirit has to guide us. Now think about it, Jesus didnt breath the Holy Spirit into them untill before he left, if he had of done it previous then Peter would not have done what he did. Just my 2 cents, but do you understand where i am comming from. Again just something to think about.

 

[po18guy]

If I can put in my 2 cents worth, and that what its worth, but anyway here is what always comes to my mind. Okay now remember when Jesus was talking to the people in parables. and the Apostles asked him why, and he said because we dont understand, and he told the apostles that the only reason they know is because he is with them to explain it to them. Okay now remember where he says there will come a day I will leave you. Then he of course leaves them with the Holy Spirit, and thats who tells them what they need to know. Okay now, think about it, Peter hears they want to kill Jesus, now would we not say the same thing as Peter. I know i would. I would be like hey lets round up the herd and get the flock out of here. But see Peters the one who gets it on this one, He gets accused of being the devil, now people really think Jesus was calling Peter the devil, they dont realize what Jesus was saying (hey Peter you are thinking like the rest of the world) Jesus was harder on Peter because he knew what Peter was going to be left to do. Now does that help on why we cant understand scripture, why the Holy Spirit has to guide us. Now think about it, Jesus didnt breath the Holy Spirit into them untill before he left, if he had of done it previous then Peter would not have done what he did. Just my 2 cents, but do you understand where i am comming from. Again just something to think about.

Well said! Bishop Sheen said that there is a sense of the demonic behind any suggestion that Christ somehow avoid suffering. This applies to Peter’s desire that Christ not suffer, as well as to the empty cross used by so many churches. If Christ did not suffer, we would have no hope. Thus, we have His Body hanging on the cross, rather than an empty cross. Without Christ, the cross is the universal symbol of death. An empty tomb would make more sense than an empty cross, right?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie…I believe this is the verse that you are referring to…its also one of those little things that some people , ahem… “protestants”, like to ignore…though they “declare” that the Bible is the “inerrant word of God”…

ROBHOM what do they mean by the inerrant word of God?

 

[po18guy]

Hey Protestant101,

You still haven’t answered my last response to you (#195). Don’t you like me anymore?

Gary

(insert crickets chirping)

 

[garysibio]

(insert crickets chirping)

the sounds of silence

Gary