Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[Gadgeteer]

I see James’s statement as saying that it’s not enough for believers to believe and not obey and love God. I make the connection with Paul’s statement in 1st Corinthians:
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast,[a] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Paul is speaking of three examples of genuine faith, in which that person gains nothing. Why? Because that faith lacked love!

James, the question is — do good deeds cause faith, or does real faith cause good deeds? Where is our focus — on deeds, or on faith?

Above I said:
Gadget:

Now, we know about Rom11:6, “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace!”
And we know about Eph2:8, “by grace through faith are we saved, not by works”.
And, 1Cor6:11, we WERE justified (and washed and sanctified) in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit (done deal, completed for us by Jesus on the Cross!)

How much of our salvation did Jesus pay for on the Cross? 50%? 75%? 99%? He paid the whole price, didn’t He? In 1Cor6:11 “dikaioō” (justified) is in aorist passive indicative; we were justified, done deal. Yes there is an idea “we-are-being-justified”, but nowhere is justification partial; “we-are-being”, in the sense that it is a position in which we must abide.

If Jesus did not complete our justification and sanctification on the Cross, then His sacrifice is incomplete, and we are saved “by grace through faith plus works”. And you and I just read Rom11:6, “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

Another question: when was Abraham justified?

“Faith”, is an active thing. Abraham was justified by belief only, but his belief was not complete until he put action to it. Make sense?

In James2:22 "…through works Abraham’s faith was made complete" — teleioō, made complete. Note well it does NOT say “justification was made complete”; no, the justification was complete already, but Abraham’s FAITH was made complete when he combined it with action.

James2:24 — “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
There are two choices here:

1. Jesus’ sacrifice only partially justified us, we have to also do works.
2. Jesus completed our justification on the Cross, works perfect our faith so that we receive His justification and sanctification and washing.

Which choice fits all of the verses, James?

 

[Gadgeteer]

I see James’s statement as saying that it’s not enough for believers to believe and not obey and love God.

Exactly right. James2:19 “you believe God is one; you do well, (but) even demons believe and shudder.”

What kind of belief is it that does not obey and love God? No kind! Mere “mental assent” (as James alludes in 2:19), is not believing.

Paul is speaking of three examples of genuine faith, in which that person gains nothing. Why? Because that faith lacked love!

In Acts16:31 Paul and Silas told the jailer, “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved”. But then Jesus said in Jn15:14, “you are My friends if you DO what I command”. And, Matt7:21, “not everyone …shall inherit but those who DO the will of the Father”.

What must we do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus; but not mere head-assent, which causes no change in our wickedness — only the kind of belief that truly unites with Jesus, going forward with HIM INDWELLING us (“it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me!”), and being filled with the Spirit (Eph5:18). It is belief, that puts action to believing.

Another question: when was Abraham justified?

When he put action to his believing! Is that not what Apostle James strives to teach? Works make our faith complete; and completed faith receive Jesus’ justification, finished for us on the Cross!

Do you agree, disagree, Gadget-has-hit-the-bull’s-eye, or Gadget is off base?

 

[James248]

James, the question is — do good deeds cause faith, or does real faith cause good deeds? Where is our focus — on deeds, or on faith?

Above I said:

How much of our salvation did Jesus pay for on the Cross? 50%? 75%? 99%? He paid the whole price, didn’t He? In 1Cor6:11 “dikaioō” (justified) is in aorist passive indicative; we were justified, done deal. Yes there is an idea “we-are-being-justified”, but nowhere is justification partial; “we-are-being”, in the sense that it is a position in which we must abide.

If Jesus did not complete our justification and sanctification on the Cross, then His sacrifice is incomplete, and we are saved “by grace through faith plus works”. And you and I just read Rom11:6, “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

“Faith”, is an active thing. Abraham was justified by belief only, but his belief was not complete until he put action to it. Make sense?

In James2:22 "…through works Abraham’s faith was made complete" — teleioō, made complete. Note well it does NOT say “justification was made complete”; no, the justification was complete already, but Abraham’s FAITH was made complete when he combined it with action.

James2:24 — “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
There are two choices here:

1. Jesus’ sacrifice only partially justified us, we have to also do works.
2. Jesus completed our justification on the Cross, works perfect our faith so that we receive His justification and sanctification and washing.

Which choice fits all of the verses, James?

I would add a third choice: A person who has faith in Jesus is justified, but if he does not continue in this state, he loses his status. Jcrichton can back me up on this.

This link was a blessing to me. taylormarshall.com/2013/10/paul-mean-by-faith-and-works-of-the-law.html

 

[jcrichton]

Well, I don’t want to fight with anyone. I would just like people to consider two passages — Rom6:3-4, and Eph4:5. Linking these with Luke12:50 and Mark10:38, where “the Baptism” is Jesus’ death and resurrection, nothing to do with water, I hope people would at least consider that is what Paul is promoting in the Rom6 passage and the Eph4 passage. “Baptiso-immerse” into Jesus’ death and resurrection.

His “baptism-of-death-and-resurrection” came some time after His waterbaptism; when He says: “are you willing to be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with”, why would that necessarily mean at the moment of waterbaptism?

Clearly Peter ties “salvation” with waterbaptism in 1:3:21. How does that fit with Acts8:16 (where waterbaptism came before salvation and receiving the Spirit), and Acts10:47 (where waterbaptism came after salvation and receiving the Spirit)?

I know that “waterbaptism” is an important sacrament in the world of Catholicism. Our agreement is that “we are saved by grace through faith, not by works”. And whatever we come to believe about it, it must accommodate the above mentioned verses; like Lk12:50, Mark10:38, Acts8:16, and Acts10:47.

No response is necessary; as I said, I don’t want to fight with you or with anyone, but just to give “verses for thought”. And whatever anyone comes to believe, it is not grounds for fighting, especially in any church bodies.

If I agreed with you completely, I would be Catholic; and if you agreed with me completely, you would be Protestant. It’s not my goal to “convert anyone” – but to make people think, to encourage them closer to God whom we all claim to serve, and to strengthen each other against worldly attacks.

And to consider each other brothers and sisters in Christ, to teach the words that the Apostles wrote, to build and not destroy, that we remain family when Jesus returns and we will be together with Him!

Yes, absolutely! Good citation. I like more Heb3:12-14; we encourage each other that NONE of us become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God! We are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end!

“Partners” – “metochos” (partakers/partners) is in Heb3:1 “in a heavenly calling”, 3:14 “in Christ”, 6:6 “in the Holy Spirit”, and 12:8 “in His discipline”…

We are commanded to “preach the Gospel to the ends of the Earth, to all people”. What do we preach? “Believe (easy!) and be saved”?

Or do we teach an intimate, indwelt union between two very real people — Creator (Jesus!), and creature (each of us!)?

I pray with all I am it’s the second!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I think that that is the one thing that we cannot “teach.”

…remember the ten lepers?

…they were all physically healed from their infirmity… yet, only one, the foreigner, return to give Witness to Christ’s Gift… he shared his joy, acknowledgment and love for God’s Blessings… and, ultimately, he Received the Gift of Life: Salvation.

…I want everyone to Return/Enter into the Fold… but man’s will is capricious and bent on “proving” and “choosing” rather than Obeying and Abiding…

…the best I can do is share, with Love and Zealousness, the Good News that we (mankind) is Saved in Christ Jesus… outside of that I can only pray that the Holy Spirit Convicts each and everyone of us to Obey and Abide in that Knowledge: “I AM the Resurrection and the Life.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not only that, they rewrite things. In Col1 they add “other” — “Through Him all other things were made”. Someone made Jesus, and then Jesus made everything else.

(Also Heb6:19-7:3 — Jesus had no father, no mother, NO BEGINNING, but became a priest of the order of Melchizadek, and made like a son of God abides a priest forever.)

And they change words like “proskyneo” – accepting it means WORSHIP in Luke4:8 (“You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve”). But then when JESUS is worshiped (Matt14:33, Matt28:9 & 17, Jn9:38) they change it into “OBEISANCE” (reverence, but certainly not worship). They try “obeisance” when PETER is worshiped in Acts10:25-26 (“don’t do that!”) — but are forced to admit it’s “worship” when John tries to worship the angel in Rev22:9 (“don’t do that!”).

Unilaterally assigning different meanings to please a doctrine should convict every JW that there is fraud going on!!!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Sadly, the problem with manipulation is that those who are being manipulated are fed the “lines/lies” which the group/entity wishes them to uphold as truth/knowledge/correctness… then, as most cults, these “deer-caught-in-the-head-lights” are frozen in the cult’s methodology of separate (the weak), conquer, and isolate… these poor people cannot think for themselves… in some extreme cases they are not even able to associate with their own blood relatives on less these are part of the cult.

…just imagine (or look at our present culture: US, China, France, Arab states…) infants being kept in a state of complete control while being fed the principles and values of the cult (culture).

We must pray that the Holy Spirit Liberate and Convict them of the Truth!

Yes; for instance, John8:58-59; which when placed alongside Jn10:33, Jesus is absolutely undeniably calling Himself “God” – the Jews there, testified to it!

That’s right. It’s the same error as Reformed Theology, begin with a doctrine and then bend the verses to fit.

“Apathy” and “slothfulness” are effective tools of the deceiver…
…that’s why hollowood’s spirituality is so appealing… it’s the stay as you are and do as you please theology!

Why not? The only time “judging” is condemned, is when it is with hypocrisy. "For how can you condemn others when you are DOING the very thing you condemn?

" Jesus said in Jn5:24, "Do not judge on appearance alone, but judge with righteous judgment!" Paul says (1Cor2:15) “The righteous man judges all things, but is he himself judged by no one”.

Our judging is the power of righteousness; it is the ability to separate right from wrong, to call evil, “evil”. Wicked forces seek to muzzle Christians with “JUDGE NOT!” While only One has the right to judge, we act as vessels for His judgment, that when we do judge others it is never to injure or destroy, but to convict and lead to Christ.

(Was Hitler “bad”? If we cannot judge, then we cannot say! Yes he was bad, and that’s a judgment!)
…here’s another of those “vocabulary” moments… no, what I mean is that we are not to judge who can or cannot find his/her way to God… we are not to judge who is ultimately Saved by God since the worst of sinners can turn to God; while the most pious of Believers can turn from God (Ezekiel 18).

So while we can judge the actions of man and we can, with full Authority, Know and teach that the wages of sin is death… we cannot determine who will remain (Stand) till the end either God’s “friend” or God’s “foe.”

Nicely said. We associate

with the unrighteous, we love them and lead them to Jesus; we do not fellowship with them.

There was an account of a woman who wanted a divorce. Her minister asked her questions, and said; “Your husband does not abuse you, he provides for you, he treats you with kindness and loves you. Your best friend is non-Christian, isn’t she?”

the woman was surprised — “How did you know that?”

The minister said, “Because you associate with wickedness and take counsel of fools!” Her friend was goading her into divorce, because her husband did not meed the friend’s worldly standards!
…I remember the first openly hostile stance that hollowood (the entertainment industry) took against God… it happen during a show of some lady named Ricky Lake (I may not have spelled the name correctly)… there was an issue where one of her “audience” members stood up and mentioned either God or Scriptures and the host (Ricky) quickly stomped on him in defense of the immoral act/discussion that was being presented… Sadly, Sacred Scriptures have evaded Christians throughout the world as they are bent on not only fellowshipping with the world but becoming its champions:

4 You are as unfaithful as adulterous wives; don’t you realise that making the world your friend is making God your enemy? Anyone who chooses the world for his friend turns himself into God’s enemy. 5 Surely you don’t think scripture is wrong when it says: the spirit which he sent to live in us wants us for himself alone? 6 But he has been even more generous to us, as scripture says: God opposes the proud but he gives generously to the humble. 7 Give in to God, then; resist the devil, and he will run away from you. 8 The nearer you go to God, the nearer he will come to you. Clean your hands, you sinners, and clear your minds, you waverers.

(St. James 4:4-8)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I would add a third choice: A person who has faith in Jesus is justified, but if he does not continue in this state, he loses his status. Jcrichton can back me up on this.

This link was a blessing to me. taylormarshall.com/2013/10/paul-mean-by-faith-and-works-of-the-law.html

Hi, James!

…yeah… the non-Catholic view on “works” is tied with the works of the Law and the false belief that Catholic theology teaches that we, man, can gain Salvation through some means of his own doing (works of mercy, kindness, sacrifice).

…as I’ve been putting forth, Catholic and Protestant understanding differ not so much in Scriptural Faith and Belief as much as it does through misunderstandings of our respective vocabularies…

…for us “works” means that we must align ourselves to Christ (St. John 15) and work/Walk in the Spirit to produce the “good fruit” that is expected of those who have been Purchased by Christ (St. John 1:12-13).

…what misses Protestant understanding is that a bad tree (sinful man) cannot produce good fruit… so “works,” though not a means to appropriation of our Salvation, is a measure of our Abiding in Christ:

4 Make your home in me, as I make mine in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, but must remain part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing.

(St. John 15:4-5)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Has anyone mentioned Hebrews 9:15? No?

Ok, I’m not sure if this will help refute the Protestant understanding of Christ’s substitution in our behalf, but here goes.

First, consider this:

1. Jesus is God.
2. Jesus died on the Cross.
3. God died on the Cross.

Let’s consider, what does death mean?

Our souls are said to die when they are separated from God. But that is not true death, just a manner of speaking. They in fact, continue to exist, they are not extinguished. The soul is spiritual. And since spirit is a synonym for life that means they continue to live.

Only physical bodies die. And they die only when their animating spirits no longer animate their bodies. But their spirits are not extinguished. Therefore, when someone or something dies, it is because their spirit no longer animates their bodies. But the spirit continues to exist. It is not extinguished and therefore continues to live.

God, the Supreme Spirit, is never extinguished. God is eternal.

Therefore, when we logically deduce that God died on the Cross, we mean that Jesus’ human body was no longer animated by His Spirit. But His Spirit was never extinguished.

Jesus is God and God died on the Cross

But why? Why did God die upon the Cross?

Because it is the only way that the faithful people of the Old Testament could have entered into heaven. It is explained very well in Scripture:

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

My Grandma used to tell me that Jesus Christ had been born in order to die. That seemed senseless to me. But now, I get it.

In order for the faithful Jews who had fulfilled all of God’s commands, to enter into heaven, God had to die. (Heb 11) You see, the Old Testament promises are like a Last Will and Testament. In order for those promises to be fulfilled, the Testator or Author of those promises, had to die. There is only one man who fit the description. Because there is only one man who is God.

I’ll give you three guesses, “who?”

 

[jcrichton]

Has anyone mentioned Hebrews 9:15? No?

Ok, I’m not sure if this will help refute the Protestant understanding of Christ’s substitution in our behalf, but here goes.

First, consider this:

1. Jesus is God.
2. Jesus died on the Cross.
3. God died on the Cross.

Let’s consider, what does death mean?

Our souls are said to die when they are separated from God. But that is not true death, just a manner of speaking. They in fact, continue to exist, they are not extinguished. The soul is spiritual. And since spirit is a synonym for life that means they continue to live.

Only physical bodies die. And they die only when their animating spirits no longer animate their bodies. But their spirits are not extinguished. Therefore, when someone or something dies, it is because their spirit no longer animates their bodies. But the spirit continues to exist. It is not extinguished and therefore continues to live.

God, the Supreme Spirit, is never extinguished. God is eternal.

Therefore, when we logically deduce that God died on the Cross, we mean that Jesus’ human body was no longer animated by His Spirit. But His Spirit was never extinguished.

Jesus is God and God died on the Cross

But why? Why did God die upon the Cross?

Because it is the only way that **the faithful people of the Old Testament **could have entered into heaven. It is explained very well in Scripture:

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

My Grandma used to tell me that Jesus Christ had been born in order to die. That seemed senseless to me. But now, I get it.

**In order for the faithful Jews **who had fulfilled all of God’s commands, to enter into heaven, God had to die. (Heb 11) You see, the Old Testament promises are like a Last Will and Testament. In order for those promises to be fulfilled, the Testator or Author of those promises, had to die. There is only one man who fit the description. Because there is only one man who is God.

I’ll give you three guesses, “who?”

Hi, De Maria!

…I would add that it was not only for the sake of the Jews but also for the sake of the Gentiles!:

14 And this is because the love of Christ overwhelms us when we reflect that if one man has died for all, then all men should be dead; 15 and the reason he died for all was so that living men should live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised to life for them. 16 From now onwards, therefore, we do not judge anyone by the standards of the flesh. Even if we did once know Christ in the flesh, that is not how we know him now. 17 And for anyone who is in Christ, there is a new creation; the old creation has gone, and now the new one is here. 18 It is all God’s work. It was God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the work of handing on this reconciliation. 19 In other words, God in Christ was reconciling the world to himself, not holding men’s faults against them, and he has entrusted to us the news that they are reconciled.

(2 Corinthians 5:14-19)

18 Why, Christ himself, innocent though he was, had died once for sins, died for the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, 19 and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 20 Now it was long ago, when Noah was still building that ark which saved only a small group of eight people ‘by water’, and when God was still waiting patiently, that these spirits refused to believe. 21 That water is a type of the baptism which saves you now, and which is not the washing off of physical dirt but a pledge made to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 St. Peter 3:18-21)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

James2:24 — “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
There are two choices here:

1. Jesus' sacrifice only partially justified us, we have to also do works.
2. Jesus completed our justification on the Cross, works perfect our faith so that we receive His justification and sanctification and washing.

Which choice fits all of the verses, James?

I would add a third choice: A person who has faith in Jesus is justified, but if he does not continue in this state, he loses his status. Jcrichton can back me up on this.

So can Scripture, James. What you said isn’t really a third choice, but fits #2.

We are fully justified by Jesus’ completed work; and it’s a position in which we must abide.

This link was a blessing to me. taylormarshall.com/2013/10/paul-mean-by-faith-and-works-of-the-law.html

An interesting read, thank you.

What did you think of the rest of my post? Such as:
Gadget:

How much of our salvation did Jesus pay for on the Cross? 50%? 75%? 99%? He paid the whole price, didn’t He? In 1Cor6:11 “dikaioō” (justified) is in aorist passive indicative; we were justified, done deal. Yes there is an idea “we-are-being-justified”, but nowhere is justification partial; “we-are-being”, in the sense that it is a position in which we must abide.

If Jesus did not complete our justification and sanctification on the Cross, then His sacrifice is incomplete, and we are saved “by grace through faith plus works”. And you and I just read Rom11:6, “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

“Faith”, is an active thing. Abraham was justified by belief only, but his belief was not complete until he put action to it. Make sense?

In James2:22 “…through works Abraham’s faith was made complete” — teleioō, made complete. Note well it does NOT say “justification was made complete”; no, the justification was complete already, but Abraham’s FAITH was made complete when he combined it with action.

You cited Taylor Marshall — he said exactly the same thing I said:

Marshall:

We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification—whether faith or works—merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

But then he says:

Marshall:

There is a synergy between faith and works, as James teaches (Jas 2:24). It is not faith alone. It is not works alone. It is faith first and works following—each flowing from the wellspring of grace springing from the wounded side of the crucified Christ.

We have to decide if “works” have any part in our justification. Marshall separates “moral works” from “works-of-Law”. But our justification was completed by Jesus, alone, on the Cross; it is a gift of grace that we receive, and that we keep. “Guard, by the (power of the) Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure (of eternal life) entrusted to you.” 1Tim1:14

Marshall says:

Marshall:

A faith that is opposed to obedience is a faith without love. It is not saving faith.

So — obedience flows from true/saving-faith, therefore as James says “faith is perfected by works” — works still have no part in justification, but they are evidence of true faith. And Rom11:6 is served, Eph2:8, and Jesus’ words in Matt7:14-16, and all the rest.

Is there any conflict between this, and Catholic theology?

 

[James248]

So can Scripture, James. What you said isn’t really a third choice, but fits #2.

We are fully justified by Jesus’ completed work; and it’s a position in which we must abide.

An interesting read, thank you.

What did you think of the rest of my post? Such as:

You cited Taylor Marshall — he said exactly the same thing I said:

But then he says:

We have to decide if “works” have any part in our justification. Marshall separates “moral works” from “works-of-Law”. But our justification was completed by Jesus, alone, on the Cross; it is a gift of grace that we receive, and that we keep. “Guard, by the (power of the) Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure (of eternal life) entrusted to you.” 1Tim1:14

Marshall says: So — obedience flows from true/saving-faith, therefore as James says “faith is perfected by works” — works still have no part in justification, but they are evidence of true faith. And Rom11:6 is served, Eph2:8, and Jesus’ words in Matt7:14-16, and all the rest.

Is there any conflict between this, and Catholic theology?

Our works don’t play a part in initial justification. But they do in the Last Judgement.

 

[De_Maria]

James,

Hi there. I hope you don’t mind my butting in. By the way, did you ever have a dancing avatar on another forum? I’ve spoken to someone else by the same handle, on another forum. Anyway…

the question is — do good deeds cause faith, or does real faith cause good deeds?

That might be your question. But it seems to me, to be besides the point. You actually posed the right question earlier, quoting St. James, you wrote,

*"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? *

The assumption here is that someone is already claiming faith. The question is, whether that faith is any good, if it is not accompanied by good works?

Where is our focus — on deeds, or on faith?

Huh? Do you mean, “where is our focus— on deeds or on words?” Or do you fail to understand that faith is expressed in good deeds. Therefore, you can’t force a dichotomy between good deeds and faith.

Those who claim to have faith, but have no deeds, have only words. And they focus on those words in order to claim their salvation. But they really have nothing:

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

You see, those who claim that they are saved because of their own faith, are merely focusing on their words. They are justifying themselves. But GOD’S focus, is on our deeds:

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

How much of our salvation did Jesus pay for on the Cross? 50%? 75%? 99%? He paid the whole price, didn’t He? In 1Cor6:11 “dikaioō” (justified) is in aorist passive indicative; we were justified, done deal. Yes there is an idea “we-are-being-justified”, but nowhere is justification partial; “we-are-being”, in the sense that it is a position in which we must abide.

That’s true. But now you’re asking the wrong question. You see, Jesus Christ died for all men. Yet not all men were saved. Does that mean that He didn’t pay for them to be saved? No. It means that they didn’t accept His sacrifice.

Now, those of us who did, finally, accept His Sacrifice. Does that mean that we were justified completely, done deal? No. Does that mean that Jesus’s sacrifice is incomplete? No. That just means that we have not been made perfect. We are justified in accordance with our faith. Or, to the extent of our faith. So far, there has only been one human being whose faith was so profound that she was justified at conception.

If Jesus did not complete our justification and sanctification on the Cross, then His sacrifice is incomplete, and we are saved “by grace through faith plus works”. And you and I just read Rom11:6, “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

That’s nonsensical. Unless you also believe that every man, woman and child on this planet is justified and going to heaven. That’s not Catholicism.

“Faith”, is an active thing. Abraham was justified by belief only,

Wrong. Abraham was justified by God when he did that which proved his faith:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

but his belief was not complete until he put action to it. Make sense?

That’s Catholic Teaching.

In James2:22 "…through works Abraham’s faith was made complete" — teleioō, made complete. Note well it does NOT say “justification was made complete”; no, the justification was complete already, but Abraham’s FAITH was made complete when he combined it with action.

On the contrary, let’s read the whole thing. Oh, I see you posted it below.

James2:24 — "You see that a man is justified by works

That means that the justification was not complete until Fr. Abraham’s faith was made perfect by works.

So, it’s faith, plus works, justification. That’s the order.

James2:24 — “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
There are two choices here:

1. Jesus’ sacrifice only partially justified us, we have to also do works.
2. Jesus completed our justification on the Cross, works perfect our faith so that we receive His justification and sanctification and washing.

Which choice fits all of the verses, James?

You don’t get to dictate the number of choices. There’s another. And it’s in addition to the one James’ proposed.

Jesus sacrifice justified those who accept His sacrifice and turn to Him who died for them:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

And, I think, that’s the right choice.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I think that that is the one thing that we cannot “teach.”

…remember the ten lepers?

…they were all physically healed from their infirmity… yet, only one, the foreigner, return to give Witness to Christ’s Gift… he shared his joy, acknowledgment and love for God’s Blessings… and, ultimately, he Received the Gift of Life: Salvation.

Healing was quite a gift. Sufferers were ostracized, banished from family and friends and accustomed venues. If they went among people they had to shout, “UNCLEAN!” I can’t imagine what happened to the other nine. Yes they were caught up in the joy of being with family and going down to the A&P — but really, what person saved from a fiery building does not thank his rescuers?

…I want everyone to Return/Enter into the Fold… but man’s will is capricious and bent on “proving” and “choosing” rather than Obeying and Abiding…

Mankind can also be …persuaded. BTW, “persuasion” is completely opposed to Reformed Theology — which portends that GOD chooses and no one can be CHANGED. But there was Paul trying to persuade King Agrippa in Acts26:28-29. John trying to persuade everyone in Jn20:31. And one can be persuaded AWAY from Jesus, Matt23:13-15, Rm14:15 (and 1Cor8:11), 2Cor11:3, and more.

…the best I can do is share, with Love and Zealousness, the Good News that we (mankind) is Saved in Christ Jesus…

And why would you do that? Perhaps — to persuade someone?

(Yup.)

outside of that I can only pray that the Holy Spirit Convicts each and everyone of us to Obey and Abide in that Knowledge: “I AM the Resurrection and the Life.”

Not outside of each person’s choice. Acts17:26-31 is too seldom used against OSAS doctrines. God puts every person when and where each can believe and be saved, He’s not far from everyone (Calvinists cannot deny they think God is INFINITELY far from most, whom He does not elect!), He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to ALL MEN by raising Jesus from the dead!

Oops, there’s another “persuasion”! (Sigh.)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Sadly, the problem with manipulation is that those who are being manipulated are fed the “lines/lies” which the group/entity wishes them to uphold as truth/knowledge/correctness… then, as most cults, these “deer-caught-in-the-head-lights” are frozen in the cult’s methodology of separate (the weak), conquer, and isolate… these poor people cannot think for themselves… in some extreme cases they are not even able to associate with their own blood relatives on less these are part of the cult.

That’s right — cults like Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses use extortion, buck the hierarchy and they’ll excommunicate you! That should scream to everyone “something’s wrong with a doctrine that has to be forced”…

…just imagine (or look at our present culture: US, China, France, Arab states…) infants being kept in a state of complete control while being fed the principles and values of the cult (culture).

And then they go to school; and are taught — “When life evolved…” And “This evolved features that…”

No, they didn’t. It’s getting worse with venues like WGBH — their “Nature” programs declare in almost every other sentence things like, “This is proof of Darwinian Evolution”. Darwin said that if we did NOT find fossils flowing from a single tree, the whole theory would have to be scrapped. We don’t (multiple trees appear simultaneously, “Cambrian Explosion”), and nothing is scrapped.

We must pray that the Holy Spirit Liberate and Convict them of the Truth!

Yes; we bind evil forces that are blocking ears, and pray that He speaks through us words of conviction. “Go unto the world, preaching the Gospel to all peoples.” “Save others, snatching them from the fire.”

…that’s why hollowood’s spirituality is so appealing… it’s the stay as you are and do as you please theology!

“Itching ears”, and “love-of-sin”.

What tagline is prominent in Antone Levay’s “satanic bible”? "Do as thou wilt…"

…here’s another of those “vocabulary” moments… no, what I mean is that we are not to judge who can or cannot find his/her way to God… we are not to judge who is ultimately Saved by God since the worst of sinners can turn to God; while the most pious of Believers can turn from God (Ezekiel 18).

Yet you and I can look at a third person, and by his drunkenness and fornication and carousing agree together that “he is not saved”… Not to hurt him, but so that we might speak words of conviction and not condemnation to him.

“The Son came not to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him…”

So while we can judge the actions of man and we can, with full Authority, Know and teach that the wages of sin is death… we cannot determine who will remain (Stand) till the end either God’s “friend” or God’s “foe.”

That’s true. And you just affirmed Heb3:12-14, which is what you have I have been doing on this board!

“Encourage one another, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God…”

…I remember the first openly hostile stance that hollowood (the entertainment industry) took against God… it happen during a show of some lady named Ricky Lake (I may not have spelled the name correctly)… there was an issue where one of her “audience” members stood up and mentioned either God or Scriptures and the host (Ricky) quickly stomped on him in defense of the immoral act/discussion that was being presented… Sadly, Sacred Scriptures have evaded Christians throughout the world as they are bent on not only fellowshipping with the world but becoming its champions:
(Citation — St. James 4:4-8)

Amen. Friendship with the world is enmity against God; yet we associate with them, never faltering in embodying His righteousness before them, that we do not compromise the valuable message with which He has entrusted us…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, James!

…yeah… the non-Catholic view on “works” is tied with the works of the Law and the false belief that Catholic theology teaches that we, man, can gain Salvation through some means of his own doing (works of mercy, kindness, sacrifice).

(I have discoursed with some Catholics saying things like, “Saved by faith works and the sacraments”…)

…as I’ve been putting forth, Catholic and Protestant understanding differ not so much in Scriptural Faith and Belief as much as it does through misunderstandings of our respective vocabularies…

…for us “works” means that we must align ourselves to Christ (St. John 15) and work/Walk in the Spirit to produce the “good fruit” that is expected of those who have been Purchased by Christ (St. John 1:12-13).

…what misses Protestant understanding is that a bad tree (sinful man) cannot produce good fruit… so “works,” though not a means to appropriation of our Salvation, is a measure of our Abiding in Christ:

I happen to be Protestant — and what you just said is completely the teaching of Scripture, and the understanding of many Protestants that I know.

We who claim to follow Jesus, whether we are Catholic or Protestant, study the Apostles’ writings together, and celebrate our agreement, and with kindness and love investigate our disagreements. And Jesus will return one day, and we strive together to find ourselves in His presence as true brothers and sisters, His family forever.

This is our goal, our duty and sacred honor; it is our love, it is our service to He whom we love and experience in His indwelling presence.

:grouphug:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Has anyone mentioned Hebrews 9:15? No?

Ok, I’m not sure if this will help refute the Protestant understanding of Christ’s substitution in our behalf, but here goes.

You do understand there are different Protestant understandings, and not all of them are opposite to Catholicism?

First, consider this:

1. Jesus is God.

1. Jesus died on the Cross.

1. God died on the Cross.

Let’s consider, what does death mean?

Our souls are said to die when they are separated from God. But that is not true death, just a manner of speaking. They in fact, continue to exist, they are not extinguished. The soul is spiritual. And since spirit is a synonym for life that means they continue to live.

Only physical bodies die. And they die only when their animating spirits no longer animate their bodies. But their spirits are not extinguished. Therefore, when someone or something dies, it is because their spirit no longer animates their bodies. But the spirit continues to exist. It is not extinguished and therefore continues to live.

Yes; “spiritual death” is separation from God. He who dies in his sins, remains separated from God forever.

God, the Supreme Spirit, is never extinguished. God is eternal.

Therefore, when we logically deduce that God died on the Cross, we mean that Jesus’ human body was no longer animated by His Spirit. But His Spirit was never extinguished.

Jesus is God and God died on the Cross

But why? Why did God die upon the Cross?

Because it is the only way that the faithful people of the Old Testament could have entered into heaven. It is explained very well in Scripture:

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

My Grandma used to tell me that Jesus Christ had been born in order to die. That seemed senseless to me. But now, I get it.

Please see 1Pet1:20-21, Jesus was “foreknown from the beginning”. Begotten rather than born, made like a Son of God (Heb7:3), His crucifixion was predestined. THAT is what was “predestined” in Eph1:3-4!

In order for the faithful Jews who had fulfilled all of God’s commands, to enter into heaven, God had to die. (Heb 11)

There always had to be a death to atone for sins; in the OT, it was a sacrifice. Jesus is now the perfect Lamb.

You see, the Old Testament promises are like a Last Will and Testament. In order for those promises to be fulfilled, the Testator or Author of those promises, had to die.

And why was that? "The wages of sin are death…"

There is only one man who fits the description. Because there is only one man who is God.

I’ll give you three guesses, “who?”

Good post. :hug3:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Our works don’t play a part in initial justification. But they do in the Last Judgment.

Agreed.

“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Rev20:12-14

We note that “works” do not save us, only whether we are written in His book or not.

The same message about “works” is in places like Rom2:6-11; yet we are not saved by good works, nor are we condemned by wicked works. I bet you and I agree that “works”, expose whether our hearts KNEW Jesus and DWELT with Him, or not?

Jesus said “no good tree produces bad fruit (works!), no bad tree produces good; you will KNOW them by their fruit!”

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi there. I hope you don’t mind my butting in.

Not at all! Perfectly welcome! :hug1:

…of course, whoever is WRONG will have to endure thirty lashes with a wet spaghetti!!!

By the way, did you ever have a dancing avatar on another forum? I’ve spoken to someone else by the same handle, on another forum. Anyway…

It’s possible; what forum? “Leftbehind”? “King’s Tavern”? “Pizza Parlor”? “Carm”? “Bibleforums”? I was even a member on “RaptureReady”, until they banned me for connecting Rev3:5 with Jn17:15, and 1Thess5:9 with Rom2:4-5, etcetera. (Sigh.)

the question is — do good deeds cause faith, or does real faith cause good deeds?

That might be your question. But it seems to me, to be besides the point. You actually posed the right question earlier, quoting St. James, you wrote,

*"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? *

The assumption here is that someone is already claiming faith. The question is, whether that faith is any good, if it is not accompanied by good works?

Excellent – you’re right.

Where is our focus — on deeds, or on faith?

Huh? Do you mean, “where is our focus— on deeds or on words?” Or do you fail to understand that faith is expressed in good deeds. Therefore, you can’t force a dichotomy between good deeds and faith.

What’s our focus – striving to do good deeds, or striving to draw closer to Jesus that gooder deeds result?

(…assuming “gooder” is a word?)

Those who claim to have faith, but have no deeds, have only words. And they focus on those words in order to claim their salvation. But they really have nothing:

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

You see, those who claim that they are saved because of their own faith, are merely focusing on their words. They are justifying themselves. But GOD’S focus, is on our deeds:

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

But deeds are merely the evidence of where our hearts are. And God will judge our deeds, to those who BY perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, they receive eternal life. But those who are selfishly ambitious and WILL NOT obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation (Hell).

And salvation is still by grace through faith, not by deeds (Eph2:8), James connects completely to Jesus’ words in Matt7:14-16, “we will be known by our fruit (deeds)”. James says it is not a saved faith which does NOT produce good deeds.

And Rev20:12 and 15 are served, we will be JUDGED by our deeds, but only whether we are in His book determines life or condemnation; those who are not so written by definition have evil deeds, those who belonged to Him are written and have good deeds, inescapably.

…betting you and I agree…

That’s true. But now you’re asking the wrong question. You see, Jesus Christ died for all men. Yet not all men were saved. Does that mean that He didn’t pay for them to be saved? No. It means that they didn’t accept His sacrifice.

Completely — RIGHT! (Goodness, neither of us will suffer the wet spaghetti?)

Now, those of us who did, finally, accept His Sacrifice. Does that mean that we were justified completely, done deal? No.

Why not? Paul writes in 1Cor6:11, “you WERE justified”. Was our justification finished on the Cross? I perceive the only answer has to be “yes”.

…and, whether it’s a “done deal” or not — on the Cross it is, but by our ABIDING it may not be. Do you disagree?

Does that mean that Jesus’s sacrifice is incomplete? No. That just means that we have not been made perfect. We are justified in accordance with our faith. Or, to the extent of our faith. So far, there has only been one human being whose faith was so profound that she was justified at conception.

See? I’m thinking we’re not disagreeing.

If Jesus did not complete our justification and sanctification on the Cross, then His sacrifice is incomplete, and we are saved “by grace through faith plus works”. And you and I just read Rom11:6, “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

That’s nonsensical. Unless you also believe that every man, woman and child on this planet is justified and going to heaven. That’s not Catholicism.

I can’t speak for Catholicism — Jesus either completed our justification on the Cross, or we have something of our own to add to what He did to justify us. I don’t think you believe that. Jesus’ sacrifice was complete – “It is finished”. Literally, “tetelestai – the debt is PAID.”

There’s nothing more we do to add to His justifying us and sanctifying us and cleansing us; beyond receiving His graceful gift, and abiding in it/Him.

 

[Gadgeteer]

“Faith”, is an active thing. Abraham was justified by belief only,

Wrong. Abraham was justified by God when he did that which proved his faith:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

What do you think about Rom4?

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

How do you make Rom4:1-3, accommodate what you just cited from James2:21-23?

Before, I said — “by works Abraham’s faith was perfected (made complete)”; wasn’t he still justified by faith, faith that was completed by his works?

but his belief was not complete until he put action to it. Make sense?

That’s Catholic Teaching.

Oh no! From a PROTESTANT? Please don’t tell anyone!

On the contrary, let’s read the whole thing. Oh, I see you posted it below.

James2:24 — "You see that a man is justified by works

That means that the justification was not complete until Fr. Abraham’s faith was made perfect by works.

So, it’s faith, plus works, justification. That’s the order.

Romans4 says Abraham was not justified before God by works. What do you think?

You don’t get to dictate the number of choices. There’s another. And it’s in addition to the one James’ proposed.

I’m perfectly okay “not-dictating-the-number-of-choices”. I would love people to think, and offer their own!

Jesus sacrifice justified those who accept His sacrifice and turn to Him who died for them:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

And, I think, that’s the right choice.

I offered two choices — we are fully justified when we receive Jesus and His graceful sacrifice; or we are not fully justified until we also do something. I’m open to a #3, just not understanding how there could be one.

Whatever you and I decide about James2:21-23, it has to also accommodate Rom4:1-3. Really 1-5:

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness…” (4-5)

So justification has nothing about what we do, but something God does to us; and James agrees when we understand him to be saying “justification comes by true faith, which is COMPLETED by good works”.

Do we still disagree?

(Do you have any spaghetti sauce?)

 

[James248]

I’m pretty sure the Bible endorses prima dude and not sola fide.

 

[Gadgeteer]

I’m pretty sure the Bible endorses prima dude and not sola fide.

I confess I don’t know what “prima dude” is. I know “prima-donna”, is this the guy-equivalent?

RE “sola-fide” — faith alone. Is real faith ever alone? James says if faith does not produce works, it ain’t real. Okay, not “ain’t-real”, but “is dead”, clearly meaning non-saving.

What are your thoughts on the discussion above with Maria, contrasting James2:21-23 (“Abraham was justified by works”), and Rom4:1-5 (“if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about… …he believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness…”)?

“Justified”, is to be declared righteous; why would that not be a one-time event, when one believes and receives Jesus? As such, it does not violate the truth that “it is a position in which one must abide”; if one goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ (so as to no longer have the Father or the Son), he is no longer justified.

“Sanctified”, is to be made righteous; although “justified” and “sanctified” are positional, fully fitting Paul’s declaration 1Cor6:11 “you WERE washed, you were justified, you were sanctified in His name and in the Spirit” — we do grow in maturity, closer to Him and farther from sin.

When we believe and receive Jesus, we are justified; “one-time-event”, which continues every day that we abide in Him. We are also sanctified; but against the idea that all of the verses warning us to be holy/righteous, meaning “grow-in-sanctification”, I perceive they are actually warning us to abide in salvation. So says John in 1:2:26-28 – “Abide in Him, so that we not shrink-in-shame (from sin) when He returns.”

What are your thoughts on Rom4:1-5, and 1Cor6:11?