Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[James248]

I meant prima fide. Holy Scripture endorses prima fide. What are your thoughts on Romans 2:13?

 

[Gadgeteer]

I meant prima fide. Holy Scripture endorses prima fide. What are your thoughts on Romans 2:13?

Prima fide, “first faith”. Rom2:13:

“for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.”

Aligns with Jn7:21-23, “not everyone will inherit the kingdom of God, but those who do the will of the Father. …those who hear My words and do them, are like a wise man who built his house on the rock …and those who hear My words and do not do them are like a foolish man who built his house on sand…”

And, Jn15:14 “greater love has no one than …to lay down his life for his friends; and you are My friends if you do what I command…”

And all of this has to include Rom4:1-4:

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Here is advanced “Abraham was not justified by works”, and that “Abraham’s justification/righteousness was because of his faith”, and that “wage is what is DUE someone BECAUSE OF his work”.

And that perfectly fits Rom11:6:

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

Paul openly teaching that any "justification-as-the-wage-of-our-works", makes salvation “no longer grace”. But then we have James in ch2 saying “Abraham was justified by works” (Jms2:21), and “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jms2:24).

How do we fit these “obviously contradictory passages” together? It looks like we have only two choices:

1. James is contradicting Paul, they say opposite things
2. The key to James’ dissertation is in verse 2:22, “because of works, faith is perfected”

James 2:22 says:

“You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;”

So then our justification was FINISHED by Jesus on the Cross, and our becoming-justified (declared righteous) is a one-time-event as a result of faith only — but that faith of ours is perfected by our pursuing good works. It is as if “justification” is a completed destination on the shore, faith is what enters us into the destination, and works is our hand on the tiller directing our faith TOWARDS that destination of justification.

To me that makes perfect sense of what James said in ch2, what Paul said in Rm4:1-5 and 11:6 and all of the rest of Scripture. Of course anyone is welcome to add a THIRD option above — but what other choice is there except “James and Paul taught contradicting things”, or "James harmonizes Paul when we recognize verse 2:22 says our faith is PERFECTED by works and then that perfected faith receives God’s justification completed by Jesus on the Cross"?

What do you think, my friend?

 

[James248]

Prima fide, “first faith”. Rom2:13:

“for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.”

Aligns with Jn7:21-23, “not everyone will inherit the kingdom of God, but those who do the will of the Father. …those who hear My words and do them, are like a wise man who built his house on the rock …and those who hear My words and do not do them are like a foolish man who built his house on sand…”

And, Jn15:14 “greater love has no one than …to lay down his life for his friends; and you are My friends if you do what I command…”

And all of this has to include Rom4:1-4:

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Here is advanced “Abraham was not justified by works”, and that “Abraham’s justification/righteousness was because of his faith”, and that “wage is what is DUE someone BECAUSE OF his work”.

And that perfectly fits Rom11:6:

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

Paul openly teaching that any "justification-as-the-wage-of-our-works", makes salvation “no longer grace”. But then we have James in ch2 saying “Abraham was justified by works” (Jms2:21), and “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jms2:24).

How do we fit these “obviously contradictory passages” together? It looks like we have only two choices:

1. James is contradicting Paul, they say opposite things
2. The key to James’ dissertation is in verse 2:22, “because of works, faith is perfected”

James 2:22 says:

“You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;”

So then our justification was FINISHED by Jesus on the Cross, and our becoming-justified (declared righteous) is a one-time-event as a result of faith only — but that faith of ours is perfected by our pursuing good works. It is as if “justification” is a completed destination on the shore, faith is what enters us into the destination, and works is our hand on the tiller directing our faith TOWARDS that destination of justification.

To me that makes perfect sense of what James said in ch2, what Paul said in Rm4:1-5 and 11:6 and all of the rest of Scripture. Of course anyone is welcome to add a THIRD option above — but what other choice is there except “James and Paul taught contradicting things”, or "James harmonizes Paul when we recognize verse 2:22 says our faith is PERFECTED by works and then that perfected faith receives God’s justification completed by Jesus on the Cross"?

What do you think, my friend?

This article contains my thoughts.
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/we-can-work-it-out

 

[Gadgeteer]

James2:24 — “You see that a man is justified by works…”

That means that the justification was not complete until Fr. Abraham’s faith was made perfect by works.

So, it’s faith, plus works, justification. That’s the order.

To James248, I said:
Gadget:

So then our justification was FINISHED by Jesus on the Cross, and our becoming-justified (declared righteous) is a one-time-event as a result of faith only — but that faith of ours is perfected by our pursuing good works. It is as if “justification” is a completed destination on the shore, faith is what enters us into the destination, and works is our hand on the tiller directing our faith TOWARDS that destination of justification.

“Faith-perfected”, completed.

“Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” 1Cor6:11

Aorist passive indicative, “you-were-justified”, in Jesus’ name.

What if justification is complete, and was complete for Abraham, but is not fully received until one’s faith is complete? Therefore works are part of “completing one’s faith”, but are not actually part of the justification. Doesn’t that make sense of all of the verses?

“Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose.” Philip2:12-13

This is our focus — on God, not on striving to do good or better works. But using our works to measure where we are in Christ.

“Examine yourselves, test yourselves, to see if you are in the faith. Do you not realize this, that Christ is in you, unless you fail the test?” (Adokimos – are disapproved, castaway…) 2Cor13:5

Peter warns us in 2:1:5-11 to be careful to have godly works, and not be like the man who was purified but now has forgotten his former purification from sin. Therefore we are to be diligent to make our calling and election bebaios-steadfast — as long as these godly fruits and love are ours, we are useful – and will not “ptaio-become-wretched. In THIS way the gates to eternity will be provided to us”.

Does James “jump ship” and declare that justification is in some part by our own works of righteousness? Or is he mirroring the others (especially 2Cor13:5 and 2Pet1:5-11) that good works necessarily accompany genuine faith, and our works are the measure of where we are in Christ (and where we need to move!)?

As everyone already knows, I perceive “works-are-our-measure”, not part of justification. Does anyone disagree?

 

[jcrichton]

Healing was quite a gift. Sufferers were ostracized, banished from family and friends and accustomed venues. If they went among people they had to shout, “UNCLEAN!” I can’t imagine what happened to the other nine. Yes they were caught up in the joy of being with family and going down to the A&P — but really, what person saved from a fiery building does not thank his rescuers?

Mankind can also be …persuaded. BTW, “persuasion” is completely opposed to Reformed Theology — which portends that GOD chooses and no one can be CHANGED. But there was Paul trying to persuade King Agrippa in Acts26:28-29. John trying to persuade everyone in Jn20:31. And one can be persuaded AWAY from Jesus, Matt23:13-15, Rm14:15 (and 1Cor8:11), 2Cor11:3, and more.

And why would you do that? Perhaps — to persuade someone?

(Yup.)

Not outside of each person’s choice. Acts17:26-31 is too seldom used against OSAS doctrines. God puts every person when and where each can believe and be saved, He’s not far from everyone (Calvinists cannot deny they think God is INFINITELY far from most, whom He does not elect!), He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to ALL MEN by raising Jesus from the dead!

Oops, there’s another “persuasion”! (Sigh.)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…sorry… that was another of those “vocabulary” things… I understood “teach” as the leading others to my understanding–the established school system which sometimes break people from their Faith by coercing them to believe as they are “taught.”

…when you put it as “persuasion,” I must fully agree with you!

…and yes, even Calvinists cannot escape the reality that in His Infinite Wisdom God has made man into his agent of persuasion… as St. Paul said: “I made myself all things to all men in order to save some at any cost;”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

This article contains my thoughts.
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/we-can-work-it-out

Anyone reading this thread can read your link, and reply with regard to it. I am myself delighted to do that; though I won’t capture your real thoughts.

The article begins:

James 2:24 is remarkably clear: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are “justified by faith alone”—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians in the process of justification.

That’s just the first paragraph. No one here is teaching “good-works-are-unnecessary”. The question is — “what part do good works have in our justification-being-declared-righteous-by-God”?

Do we have any ability to be righteous or to work righteousness? Or is all of our righteousness received from God, through our faith?

Yes James2:24 is clear; and so is Rom4:2-5.
Rom4:2 “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4:4 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.”
4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness…”

Verse 2 seems to be saying Abraham was NOT justified by works.
Verse 3, only Abraham’s belief was credited as righteousness/justification.
Verse 4, if justification is by works, then justification is earned and not “grace”.
Verse 5, he who does not work, is justified by God, his FAITH is credited as justification.

Do you or anyone think I understand these verses wrongly? If Paul says “Abraham was not justified by works”, and then James says “Abraham was justified by works”, wouldn’t the harmonizing of those two seeming contradictions be that "justification is by faith alone, but TRUE faith is NOT alone from works; works complete faith sufficiently to receive God’s justification (which was finished on the Cross by Jesus)?

 

[jcrichton]

(I have discoursed with some Catholics saying things like, “Saved by faith works and the sacraments”…)

I happen to be Protestant — and what you just said is completely the teaching of Scripture, and the understanding of many Protestants that I know.

We who claim to follow Jesus, whether we are Catholic or Protestant, study the Apostles’ writings together, and celebrate our agreement, and with kindness and love investigate our disagreements. And Jesus will return one day, and we strive together to find ourselves in His presence as true brothers and sisters, His family forever.

This is our goal, our duty and sacred honor; it is our love, it is our service to He whom we love and experience in His indwelling presence.

:grouphug:

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…please understand that I must sometimes use the generic “Protestants;” though it is a blanket term, I know, and the Church recognizes, that there are variations in the beliefs and understanding of non-Catholic Christians… yet, as you and I have proven through our various exchanges on this site there is that congruence in our goal: Christ Jesus!

I must also confess that I willfully throw out certain things so as to provoke both Catholics and non-Catholic into the understanding that we must engage each other in dialogue so that those things that have been serving as hubs of dissent and splintering be reduced or even razed from Christendom.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Anyone reading this thread can read your link, and reply with regard to it. I am myself delighted to do that; though I won’t capture your real thoughts.

The article begins:

James 2:24 is remarkably clear: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are “justified by faith alone”—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians in the process of justification.

That’s just the first paragraph. No one here is teaching “good-works-are-unnecessary”. The question is — “what part do good works have in our justification-being-declared-righteous-by-God”?

Do we have any ability to be righteous or to work righteousness? Or is all of our righteousness received from God, through our faith?

Yes James2:24 is clear; and so is Rom4:2-5.
Rom4:2 “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4:4 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.”
4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness…”

Verse 2 seems to be saying Abraham was NOT justified by works.
Verse 3, only Abraham’s belief was credited as righteousness/justification.
Verse 4, if justification is by works, then justification is earned and not “grace”.
Verse 5, he who does not work, is justified by God, his FAITH is credited as justification.

Do you or anyone think I understand these verses wrongly? If Paul says “Abraham was not justified by works”, and then James says “Abraham was justified by works”, wouldn’t the harmonizing of those two seeming contradictions be that "justification is by faith alone, but TRUE faith is NOT alone from works; works complete faith sufficiently to receive God’s justification (which was finished on the Cross by Jesus)?

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I think that this also deals with “vocabulary” (understanding)… let’s open up James 2:

20 Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without good deeds is useless. 21 You surely know that Abraham our father was justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 There you see it: faith and deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did.

23 This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called ‘the friend of God’. 24 You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified. (St. James 2:20-24–JB)

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (St. James 2:20-24–NI)
While it is true that Justification is God’s Gift and that there’s nothing that man can do to gain his own Justification, there is at play a requisite, as with the Gift of Salvation, man must collaborate with God: man’s conscious choice to do what is God’s Will perfects his Faith, which, once perfected, Justifies man. (Consider Ephesians 2:4-22)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

:tiphat:

…please understand that I must sometimes use the generic “Protestants;” though it is a blanket term, I know, and the Church recognizes, that there are variations in the beliefs and understanding of non-Catholic Christians…

Right. Under “Protestantism”, there are many variants; though perhaps we can agree on some basic views:

1. Calvinistic Protestantism (God sovereignly ordains salvation AND wickedness)
2. Non-Calvinistic Protestantism
   
   a. Antinomianism (corrupt flesh, saved spirit; “backslidden-but-saved”!)
   b. Eternal Security (everyone truly invited, but once “in” cannot leave)
   c. Fallible Salvation (God’s grace, but our faith, we must be diligent to abide in Him!)​

#2c (which I do perceive from Scripture), is closest to Catholicism.

yet, as you and I have proven through our various exchanges on this site there is that congruence in our goal: Christ Jesus!

Amen! Someone once said, "Christianity is the only army where soldiers execute their own wounded on the battlefield."

May it never be! Protestants claim to abide in Jesus, looking forward to eternity with Him. Catholics claim to abide in Jesus, looking forward to eternity with Him! Why would we not embody love in our mutual pursuit?

Is there anyone on this board with whom I would NOT want to spend eternity?
Vehemently, emphatically, solidly, NO. And I pray that others feel the same about me.

I must also confess that I willfully throw out certain things so as to provoke both Catholics and non-Catholic into the understanding that we must engage each other in dialogue so that those things that have been serving as hubs of dissent and splintering be reduced or even razed from Christendom.

A very admirable goal.

I do understand Catholicism’s embracing “subsequent revelations”; yet all here agree that what the Apostles wrote, is valid and true and God’s intent. This then is our agreement; to study their writing, that we overcome the idea of “interpretation” as much as we can, to prove what they intended to teach.

For the word “interpretation” by definition confronts two or more understandings, each of which certain persons find “convincing”. We do not set verses against verses; but “Scripture interprets Scripture”, and it all has to fit. We do not get to throw out anything that we don’t like. You know I’ve often cited 1Cor2:14, which Calvinists are certain teaches “unregenerate men cannot understand salvation enough to believe and be saved”. But blatant in Paul’s words, verse 12 “we must RECEIVE the SPIRIT (believe to salvation!) in order to GET those things!”

There is no interpretation possible in 1Cor2:14, in context Paul’s meaning is absolute; the verse simply means “natural men HAVE not believed”, in no sense can it be made to mean “they CANNOT believe”.

The conjunction between James2 and Rom4 may not be so blatant; but I hoped we could come to agreement on how “Abraham-was-not-justified-by-works”, could accommodate “Abraham-was-justified-by-works-and-not-by-faith-alone”…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I think that this also deals with “vocabulary” (understanding)… let’s open up James 2:

While it is true that Justification is God’s Gift and that there’s nothing that man can do to gain his own Justification, there is at play a requisite, as with the Gift of Salvation, man must collaborate with God: man’s conscious choice to do what is God’s Will perfects his Faith, which, once perfected, Justifies man.

It seems that the question here, is – “which does doing-works affect — justification, or the faith-which-receives-justification?”

(Consider Ephesians 2:4-22)

That passage reads to me that “works have nothing to do with our salvation” – which would include sanctification, justification, and washing (regeneration).

What is the difference between “faith that receives God’s gift of grace”, and “faith which does good works”? I don’t see any! There are those who profess Christianity, but exhibit worldly fruits like “disputes, factions, dissensions, strife, jealousy, immorality, etcetera”; they have a form of godliness but deny Jesus.

When someone says “we are justified by faith alone”, the appropriate answer is “Faith that truly dwells with Jesus is NEVER alone”!

I’m betting such a statement crosses Catholic and Protestant lines.

 

[James248]

Paul’s situation is a bit different from James. Remember those guys who were going around saying, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Law of Moses, you can not be saved?” Paul is addressing the communities on works of the Old Law like circumsion and dietary restrictions. Paul states that a Gentile who submits to the Old Law has voided his salvation. James is addressing people who believe but are in the path of the ungodly. Paul is talking about works done under the system of debt, but James is talking about works done under Grace, the Law of Christ. Notice how many parallels James has to his Brother’s Sermon on the Mount.

 

[De_Maria]

Not at all! Perfectly welcome! :hug1:

Thank you!

…of course, whoever is WRONG will have to endure thirty lashes with a wet spaghetti!!!

Alas. We must all do our penance.:sad_yes:

It’s possible; what forum? “Leftbehind”? “King’s Tavern”? “Pizza Parlor”? “Carm”? “Bibleforums”? I was even a member on “RaptureReady”, until they banned me for connecting Rev3:5 with Jn17:15, and 1Thess5:9 with Rom2:4-5, etcetera. (Sigh.)

Yep, it was Carm.

Excellent – you’re right.

What’s our focus – striving to do good deeds, or striving to draw closer to Jesus that gooder deeds result?..

…betting you and I agree…

We either agree or we’re so close that I can’t distinguish a difference.

Completely — RIGHT! (Goodness, neither of us will suffer the wet spaghetti?)

:whew:

Why not? Paul writes in 1Cor6:11, “you WERE justified”. Was our justification finished on the Cross? I perceive the only answer has to be “yes”.

…and, whether it’s a “done deal” or not — on the Cross it is, but by our ABIDING it may not be. Do you disagree?

I agree that by our abiding, it may not be. So, you don’t believe that Jesus completed everyone’s justification, is that correct?

See? I’m thinking we’re not disagreeing.

I’m not sure.

I can’t speak for Catholicism — Jesus either completed our justification on the Cross, or we have something of our own to add to what He did to justify us.

Yes. We have something to add.

I don’t think you believe that. Jesus’ sacrifice was complete – “It is finished”. Literally, “tetelestai – the debt is PAID.”

That’s true. The debt is paid. But there are some people who refuse to accept the payment which He has made on their behalf. They don’t like the obligations imposed on them, if they do so:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

There’s nothing more we do to add to His justifying us and sanctifying us and cleansing us; beyond receiving His graceful gift, and abiding in it/Him.

In fact, there has to be. The very first thing one must do, is turn to Him in faith.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And then, one must do everything that faith in Christ entails.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[De_Maria]

What do you think about Rom4?

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

I understand it as Scripture explains it:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 **And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: **and he was called the Friend of God.

You see, St. James, inspired by the Holy Spirit, explains that Gen 15:6 was fulfilled in Gen. 22:12.

How do you make Rom4:1-3, accommodate what you just cited from James2:21-23?

I don’t have to do it. Scripture has done it for me.

Furthermore, I add to it Rom 4:19-22, which, in a nutshell, says that Abraham acted upon his faith and therefore it was credited to him for righteousness.

Before, I said — “by works Abraham’s faith was perfected (made complete)”; wasn’t he still justified by faith, faith that was completed by his works?

No. Abraham’s faith was made perfect, therefore he was justified.

Oh no! From a PROTESTANT? Please don’t tell anyone!

Shhh! We’ll keep that to ourselves. Don’t do it again.

Romans4 says Abraham was not justified before God by works. What do you think?

I think St. Paul is explaining justification the way Jesus explained it in Matt 25:31-46.

Note that the Sheep had already done their good works, while they were alive. Therefore, Christ justified them. They did not not justify themselves by their works. Jesus Christ justified them because He judged their works were good works.

It’s the same for everyone. As Catholics, our justification occurs in the Sacraments. WE don’t do the work. Christ does the work. But if we haven’t done the works meet for repentance, (that is, if we haven’t kept the commandments and amended our lives), Christ will see that in our hearts and we won’t be justified.

I’m perfectly okay “not-dictating-the-number-of-choices”. I would love people to think, and offer their own!

:extrahappy:

I offered two choices — we are fully justified when we receive Jesus and His graceful sacrifice; or we are not fully justified until we also do something. I’m open to a #3, just not understanding how there could be one.

Because Justification is continual. It is not a one time thing.

We are fully justified in Baptism. But, if we fall and commit sin, we must be justified again. Therefore, we return to the fountain of grace and ask forgiveness for our sins. It is called, confession:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Whatever you and I decide about James2:21-23, it has to also accommodate Rom4:1-3. Really 1-5:

And 19-22.

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness…” (4-5)

That is a Davidic saying. And it goes back to the very first Confession on record. David committed a sin with Bathsheba. He had an extra-marital affair with her and killed her husband. He repented of his sin and confessed to the Prophet Nathan(?). Nathan pronounced his absolution and his penance.

2 Sam 12.

When we approach the throne of grace, we usually have no good works to show. We have only repentance for something we have done wrong. But God is merciful and forgives.

So justification has nothing about what we do, but something God does to us; and James agrees when we understand him to be saying “justification comes by true faith, which is COMPLETED by good works”.

Do we still disagree?

:sad_yes:

(Do you have any spaghetti sauce?)

:nope: I have

 

[Gadgeteer]

Paul’s situation is a bit different from James. Remember those guys who were going around saying, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Law of Moses, you can not be saved?” Paul is addressing the communities on works of the Old Law like circumcision and dietary restrictions.

Hi, James248. I don’t think you’ve given your thoughts on Rom4:2-5 (unless I snoozed and missed it!). In saying, “he who works, is wage is not a favor but what is due” — isn’t Paul saying that God’s grace, is given to us by His favor"? And therefore, if justification has anything to do with our working for it, it’s not grace/favor (as it says in Rm11:6)?

I don’t see it as effective to separate “works” into Law, and righteousness; how is Paul not saying that “justification is bestowed on us by God’s favor, if we have faith”?

Paul states that a Gentile who submits to the Old Law has voided his salvation. James is addressing people who believe but are in the path of the ungodly. Paul is talking about works done under the system of debt, but James is talking about works done under Grace, the Law of Christ. Notice how many parallels James has to his Brother’s Sermon on the Mount.

Paul often speaks of grace. In trying to harmonize James2:21-24 with Rom4:2-5, what else would fit both passages, except — "justification is credited only on our belief; but not just mere mental-assent-belief, only belief which causes good works and therefore is made-perfect (completed)"?

Now, I’m not meaning to argue; I know this is a Catholic board – please tell me if “justified-by-works” is a central plank in Catholicism so that it’s non-negotiable? It serves no purpose for us to fight about this; and even if it is “central”, if anyone might come to view justification as “by faith and not by works”, that is not reason to go barrelling into any body (Catholic or not!) combatively.

 

[James248]

Paul’s situation is a bit different from James. Remember those guys who were going around saying, “Unless you are circumsised according to the Law of Moses, you can not be saved?” Paul is addressing the communities on works of the Old Law like circumsion and dietary restrictions. Paul states that a Gentile who submits to the Old Law has voided his salvation. James is addressing people who believe but are in the path of the ungodly. Paul is talking about works done under the system of debt, but James is talking about works done under Grace, the Law of Christ. Notice how many parallels James has to his Brother’s Sermon on the Mount.

Guys?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Thank you!

:tiphat:

Excellent – you’re right.

What’s our focus – striving to do good deeds, or striving to draw closer to Jesus that gooder deeds result?..

…betting you and I agree…

We either agree or we’re so close that I can’t distinguish a difference.

:egyptian:

I agree that by our abiding, it may not be. So, you don’t believe that Jesus completed everyone’s justification, is that correct?

The opposite; Jesus completed our justification (as I understand from Scripture), we receive His completed grace only by faith — but not just any faith, only the kind of faith which comes with good works. And so James2 is served, Matt7:14-16 is served, Eph2:8, Rom11:6, Rom2:4-11 and Rev20:13, and all the rest.

I’m struggling to understand the Catholic view — people here have said, "Justification is by faith and works". I don’t see it as by works at all; rather, works perfect (complete) our faith, and perfected faith is what receives justification.

To me, James is saying that justification is credited to a believer when that belief is real enough to spawn good works. Do you think I still “have it wrong”?

I’m not sure.

Can you find out and have it on my desk in the morning?

Jesus either completed our justification on the Cross, or we have something of our own to add to what He did to justify us.

Yes. We have something to add.

And that is exactly my confusion. To me, “we-have-something-to-add”, by definition means that Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient. And that sounds opposite to Rom4:

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

What is “grace”, but God’s favor? Which — must be received, and kept. But if a gift is not wholly of the giver, but if even a part of that gift “the receiver works for” (therefore, it’s not a favor but what is due), then how much of Jesus’ sacrifice was effective, so that we have to finish the gap with our own good works?

I’m confident you can see my confusion, and hope you can help me understand your view.

I don’t think you believe that. Jesus’ sacrifice was complete – “It is finished”. Literally, "tetelestai – the debt is PAID.

That’s true. The debt is paid.

No, it’s not — not if we have something to add. For then what is added, completes what was unfinished before!

See my incomplete understanding?

But there are some people who refuse to accept the payment which He has made on their behalf. They don’t like the obligations imposed on them, if they do so:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Oh come on – you actually believe one has to OBEY Jesus before they can obtain salvation?

(…I’m teasing you…)

In fact, there has to be. The very first thing one must do, is turn to Him in faith.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And then, one must do everything that faith in Christ entails.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

That doesn’t add anything to His grace (justification, sanctification, regeneration). A gift remains all of the giver; a receiver absolutely has to decide to receive it (and if it’s a good gift that makes the receiver “wise”) — but the decision to reach out and accept the gift, adds nothing to the gift…

 

[Gadgeteer]

I understand it as Scripture explains it:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 **And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: **and he was called the Friend of God.

You see, St. James, inspired by the Holy Spirit, explains that Gen 15:6 was fulfilled in Gen. 22:12.

Gen15:6 “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”

Gen22:12 "He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

What did Abraham’s action, change? Did it change GOD? (Mal3:6 “I do not change.”)

Did it change justification? (Jesus’ sacrifice was incomplete?)

…or did it change ABRAHAM, moving his faith to completeness?

How do you make Rom4:1-3, accommodate what you just cited from James2:21-23?

I don’t have to do it. Scripture has done it for me.

Furthermore, I add to it Rom 4:19-22, which, in a nutshell, says that Abraham acted upon his faith and therefore it was credited to him for righteousness.

What was credited — his acting, or his faith?

Before, I said — “by works Abraham’s faith was perfected (made complete)”; wasn’t he still justified by faith, faith that was completed by his works?

No. Abraham’s faith was made perfect, therefore he was justified.

Isn’t that what I just said?
(…careful, you could confuse the old-guy…)

Shhh! We’ll keep that to ourselves. Don’t do it again.

No promises of that! It could well happen again!

I think St. Paul is explaining justification the way Jesus explained it in Matt 25:31-46.

Note that the Sheep had already done their good works, while they were alive. Therefore, Christ justified them. They did not not justify themselves by their works. Jesus Christ justified them because He judged their works were good works.

It’s the same for everyone. As Catholics, our justification occurs in the Sacraments. WE don’t do the work. Christ does the work.

I don’t think that’s consistent, DeMaria. If Jesus is doing our good works through us (I agree, Philip2:12-13!) — then He does not justify men because their works are good. Of COURSE they’re good if Jesus is really doing them! But if good works are the evidence of Jesus actually indwelling and working through us, then it’s not by “works”, but by “faith as He indwells those who believe”. And justification would be because of real belief.

Oops, I made a mistake; the Greek usually says "those who are-believ-ING", see Rom1:16, Jn3:16, 1Jn5:1, and more. He who is believing present participle, not he who believed once upon a time.

But if we haven’t done the works meet for repentance, (that is, if we haven’t kept the commandments and amended our lives), Christ will see that in our hearts and we won’t be justified.

It’s back to the question — what do our works affect, His justification, or our faith? It reads to me that “completed faith is what receives His justification”…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Because Justification is continual. It is not a one time thing.

That’s not what Paul says in 1Cor6:11; we “were justified”, aorist passive indicative – it is completed. Now, where you and I agree, is that “justification is a place in which we must ABIDE”…

We are fully justified in Baptism. But, if we fall and commit sin, we must be justified again. Therefore, we return to the fountain of grace and ask forgiveness for our sins. It is called, confession:

We would also have to be sanctified again, and washed (regenerated) again.

“you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” 1Cor6:11

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus3:5-7

Justified — past tense; we were saved NOT on the basis of works, but by His mercy, and justified by His grace.

What do you think I’m still missing?

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Be reconciled; — YOU, DO this! Do — receive Jesus’ gospel, believe, and measure your belief by your works.

Whatever you and I decide about James2:21-23, it has to also accommodate Rom4:1-3. Really 1-5:

And 19-22.

19-22 also reads to me as “his faith was credited as righteousness”…

That is a Davidic saying. And it goes back to the very first Confession on record. David committed a sin with Bathsheba. He had an extra-marital affair with her and killed her husband. He repented of his sin and confessed to the Prophet Nathan(?). Nathan pronounced his absolution and his penance.

2 Sam 12.

When we approach the throne of grace, we usually have no good works to show. We have only repentance for something we have done wrong. But God is merciful and forgives.

So justification has nothing about what we do, but something God does to us; and James agrees when we understand him to be saying “justification comes by true faith, which is COMPLETED by good works”.

Wait — did you say that last paragraph, or did I?

Do we still disagree?

:sad_yes:

I wonder if it is as much as anyone thought before?

(Do you have any spaghetti sauce?)

:nope: I have

Oh, please — let it be spaghetti sauce with MUSHROOMS! I like The Mushroom!

He’s a funguy…

(fungi…)

 

[jcrichton]

Guys?

Hi, James!

…I think that they are two distinct issues… St. Paul’s passages hit on both ends of it… while he adamantly speaks against "works,’ these are defined as a function depending upon the Mosaic Law (the Ten Commandments and the hundreds of amendments that arose from them as purification rituals, etc.); at the other end, St. Paul speaks adamantly about the works of Grace: Love.

While Salvation is not dependent upon adhesion/practice of either of these “works,” Catholic understanding efficaciously separates them into their respective division: a) works of the Law (Old Testament restrictions and warnings) and the works of Grace or Christ’s Law (the Two Commandments: Love of God & Love of self and neighbor). The non-Catholic understanding just simply augments the works of the Law and credits the Catholic Church as Teaching that man can “Save” himself by being “good” or basically purchasing his way into Heaven.

Catholic theology correctly espouses the works of Grace with Salvation or Justification as both St. James and St. Paul stressed:

25 There is another example of the same kind: Rahab the prostitute, justified by her deeds because she welcomed the messengers and showed them a different way to leave. 26 A body dies when it is separated from the spirit, and in the same way faith is dead if it is separated from good deeds

. (St. James 2:25-26)

1 If I have all the eloquence of men or of angels, but speak without love, I am simply a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, understanding all the mysteries there are, and knowing everything, and if I have faith in all its fulness, to move mountains, but** without love**, then I am nothing at all. 3 If I give away all that I possess, piece by piece, and if I even let them take my body to burn it, but am without love, **it will do me no good **whatever. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
The history of disunity in the Body has caused both groups to engage in subjective listening when we come to the crossroads… Catholics are suspicious of non-Catholic fervor for the Word as their interpretations usually leads to further splinters in the Body, and non-Catholics cannot bear Catholic exegesis because they apply the burden of proof that was instituted by their founders: “if it is Catholic, it must be wrong.”

We have been spinning the wheel on the issue of “works…”

While the Catholic Church does not Teach that “good works” Save, non-Catholics are convinced that that is in deed what she Teaches.

In general (I do not know enough about the various Protestant understandings), non-Catholics are correct that man cannot Saved himself through any works; yet, they balloon up their understanding by meshing works of the Law and works of Grace as a single, almost indistinguishable unit, as they prescribe that Catholics want to earn their way into Heaven.

Though we are both on the right path (man cannot Save himself) we keep missing each other.

I pray that the Holy Spirit enlightens and Convicts us all of the Truth–without the add-ons!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, James!

…I think that they are two distinct issues… St. Paul’s passages hit on both ends of it… while he adamantly speaks against "works,’ these are defined as a function depending upon the Mosaic Law (the Ten Commandments and the hundreds of amendments that arose from them as purification rituals, etc.); at the other end, St. Paul speaks adamantly about the works of Grace: Love.

I would think that per Rom4:4, a “work” (in regards to salvation and/or meriting God’s grace and justification), is any action of value. Thus, “he who works, his wage is not a favor but what is due”.

Salvation is an unearned favor from God…

While Salvation is not dependent upon adhesion/practice of either of these “works,” Catholic understanding efficaciously separates them into their respective division: a) works of the Law (Old Testament restrictions and warnings) and the works of Grace or Christ’s Law (the Two Commandments: Love of God & Love of self and neighbor). The non-Catholic understanding just simply augments the works of the Law and credits the Catholic Church as Teaching that man can “Save” himself by being “good” or basically purchasing his way into Heaven.

I don’t know any Protestant who thinks that. It’s just – some Catholics have been known to say, “Salvation by faith plus works plus the sacraments”.

Look at this post by De Maria, this morning:

Gadget:

I can’t speak for Catholicism — Jesus either completed our justification on the Cross, or we have something of our own to add to what He did to justify us.

Yes. We have something to add.

How can we have something to add to what Jesus did? How much of our justification did Jesus finish? 3/4? 9/10?

Paul said, “If it be by works, then grace is no longer grace” – to me, if we add anything to what Jesus did, then “grace is no longer grace”. (And if Maria reads this, I would love to hear her thoughts!)

Catholic theology correctly espouses the works of Grace with Salvation or Justification as both St. James and St. Paul stressed:

The history of disunity in the Body has caused both groups to engage in subjective listening when we come to the crossroads… Catholics are suspicious of non-Catholic fervor for the Word as their interpretations usually leads to further splinters in the Body, and non-Catholics cannot bear Catholic exegesis because they apply the burden of proof that was instituted by their founders: “if it is Catholic, it must be wrong.”

Without one central absolute, all Scriptural discussions are useless — are there or are there not solid principles asserted in Scripture which cannot have more than one meaning?

That is my whole approach in discussions with groups like Reformed Theologians. Does “believe-and-receive-the-Spirit” come before “taught-the-things” in 1Cor2:12-13, or does it not? Does “turn-to-Jesus” come before “veil-over-hearts-removed” in 2Cor3:16, or not? Does Acts17:26-31 plainly state that God places EVERYONE where he/she can seek Him and can find Him (He’s not far from anyone) — or not?

Questions like these can only be answered “YES”, or “NO”. And “no” is simply not possible. Interpretation? Can’t exist. “Receive-the-Spirit” is before “taught-things”, “turn-to-Jesus” is before “veil-removed”, and “everyone-can-seek-and-FIND-God” (all men everywhere are commanded to repent). Each of those (and hundreds of like passages) can be established to teach only one meaning — without that fact, discussions are merely “I-think/you-think”, and have no value.

We have been spinning the wheel on the issue of “works…”

While the Catholic Church does not Teach that “good works” Save, non-Catholics are convinced that that is indeed what she Teaches.

In general (I do not know enough about the various Protestant understandings), non-Catholics are correct that man cannot Saved himself through any works; yet, they balloon up their understanding by meshing works of the Law and works of Grace as a single, almost indistinguishable unit, as they prescribe that Catholics want to earn their way into Heaven.

Though we are both on the right path (man cannot Save himself) we keep missing each other.

I pray that the Holy Spirit enlightens and Convicts us all of the Truth–without the add-ons!

As you’ve said, “vocabulary” (semantics). When one of us says “we can possess Jesus and eternal life”, and the other says “That is all that ‘saved’ means”, do we meet in the middle?