J
James248
Guest
That’s what happens in Baptism. We are immersed in water and take part into His Death. When we come up out of the water, we share in His Resurrection.
- Status
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steve_b
Guest
I always try and give proof properly referenced for the positions I take.
their collective heads would explode if they found out who gave them that book. It’s a Catholic book, written in, by for the Catholic Church.
“incredulity”
see the link below for how the Church defines it
Paul had a great remedy. Tough but valid.…when their arms are COMPLETELY empty, then they have no choice but to question their cherished doctrine! Well, maybe after we fill their arms up again, this time with all the verses warning “do not fall away from God by disobedience and unbelief”!
I admire your enthusiasm. But we still have to “meet people where they are”; and we can do that, with just the verses they think promote “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”.
In the process we indisputably expose that their doctrine calls God FALSE/FRAUD/HYPOCRITE/WICKED, and expose the verses which absolutely warn against real apostasy.“I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” 2Cor11:3What possible SECOND MEANING could there be to that?
He said this to Bishop Titus.
Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
Consider Paul’s statement.
A heretic is one who has been baptized. Without baptism a person can’t be a heretic. THAT shows the power of Baptism in a person’s soul., and Paul is saying that a baptized person who rejects any Church doctrines, after 1 or 2 corrections, then have nothing more to do with that person, they are already self condemned.
Paul says they are already self condemned.
For definition of some terms that I used. 2089
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Gadgeteer!
…have you noticed that this is a two-fold event?:
and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (St. Matthew 3:11-12)
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! (St. Luke 12:49-50)
38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?” 39 “We can,” they answered. (St. Mark 10:38-39)
There are two things happening:
- Christ’s Passion and Death–all will benefit from it; but while all of the Believers are Called to Be Ready to Experience the Same for the world (St. John 15:13), not all will drink His Cup.
- The cleansing of the world through the Holy Spirit and Fire–notice the separation in St. Matthew 3:12 and the reference in St. Luke 12:49… but this fire is of Cleansing; this fire is not of suffering for others but for the individual’s Purification…
teach “every person will go to Heaven”. It addresses “Pre-Trib-Rapture”, each verse there does not teach “comfortable escape”, but plenty of verses warn “be prepared for great tribulation”.
And all of the other ideas — if Scriptures cannot be shown to solidly express clear teachings, how can we “exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict”?
Scripture often uses “repetitive narrative”; how is Matt3:12 not repeating verse 11? Doesn’t “refined-by-fire” in 1Pet reflect “fire of trials” in James1:12?
He’s still talking about His Crucifixion; He was already waterbaptized and did not get waterbaptized a second time.
The “fire of trials which tests us” (1Cor3:13-15) is not the “fire Jesus wishes to kindle upon the Earth”, and it is not “the fire that burns the chaff”. Three fires are in view; how can that be “just one (of several) interpretations”?
How is “His cup”, not being “united through baptism-into-death” (not “baptism-into-WATER-into-His-death”) spoken of in Rom6:1-4? We have DIED — “united in the likeness of His death”.
What do you think I’m missing?
Why set fire to the world (sinful man) if the world is nothing but shaft; what is shaft but rubbish?
The reason why water Baptism is the unifying thread of every Believer to Christ is because every Believer must undergo water Baptism for the Purification (removal of sins) and this Purification is for the benefit of the individual. This then unites us to Christ. Since we are united to Christ in Baptism we can enjoy the Benefit of His Cup: His Passion and Death. And since we are united to Christ’s Death, through Baptism, we can then enjoy His Resurrection… and in deed, those who Obediently Received the Sacrament of Baptism will enjoy Resurrection through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.
…and while there’s only one Baptism, the Believers will be tested through trials and persecutions… the world will not suffer such travails because the world has not Received Jesus!
…if that fire that Jesus wants to see engulfing the world is a purifying fire, then all of the world will be reconciled to Christ and will be resurrected into Life because it would have experienced (taken) Christ’s Cup… but the world rejects Christ… rejects becoming part of His Body; rejects being Baptized into Christ… rejects water Baptism that does Save! (1 St. Peter 3:21)
Remember, the agent of Salvation is not the element (as it was not the image of the serpent for the Hebrews); it is Obedience to God:
I think that the greatest problem you have is the use of the term Baptize… you directly connect this to Christ’s Cup; but consider this in light of 1st Corinthians 6:14-17. Without actually drinking His Cup, united to Christ through water Baptism, we experience in a “mystical” symbiosis: Christ’s Passion, Death, and Resurrection!I look forward to your thoughts on ideas like Rom6:1-7 “we are united in the likeness of His death, and …in His resurrection we walk in newness of life”. And your thoughts on how Matt3:12 is not simply repeating verse 11.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Gadgeteer!“Are” distinct; I’ve still not heard anything to deny “baptized-by-fire” in Matt3:11, is not the same fire in the next verse (same breath!) “burn-the-chaff-with-unquenchable-fire”.
Yes. In Acts10:47 “they were to be waterbaptized because they had clearly already been baptized by the Spirit”.
In Acts8:16 they were to be baptized by the Spirit because they had only been waterbaptized and had not yet RECEIVED the Spirit.
We’re left with trying to explain how these were “exceptions” and different from us (we’re not saved the same way, even though Peter says “they same as us-Apostles”), or we can accept that Cornelius’ company, and Philip’s audience, were saved the same way as we are.
The Pentecost (when the Spirit was “poured out upon the Earth”), was in Acts2; Acts8 and 10 are in the same place as we are.
They were saved “the same as Peter and the Apostles were, after believing” — the same as we are.
That is one of the verses Universalists use where “no one knows what Peter was saying”. Our being united with Christ through “immersion-into-His-death”, is the same “not-by-water” as Lk12:50 and Mk10:38-39. It’s the same as Acts10:47. Yes “united with Him” often happens at waterbaptism, as Peter said 1:3:21; but it didn’t in Acts8:16, nor in Acts10:47.
I’m not meaning to be argumentative; if Corenlius’ group, and Philip’s audience were “exceptions different from us”, why would Peter say “the SAME as us”?
“God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ…” Acts11:17
God gave them the same gift of the Spirit (Acts11:15), as He also gave to US-APOSTLES, after believing; not “after believing and being waterbaptized”.
I’m only trying to understand how you read “the-same-as-us”, and perceive “they-were-exceptions”?
Yes. Yet, the principle remains – Philip’s audience received the Spirit days after being waterbaptized; and Cornelius’ group received the Spirit before being waterbaptized. I don’t see how we can say “the Spirit is only received through water”?
Sorry to be stubborn – they received the Spirit apart from the water, in both places; Peter said “the same as we did”, clearly acknowledging “receiving the Spirit” separate from water.
How can “the-same-as-us”, now become “we-are-different-from-them”?
We still have not resolved why Rom6:1-7 (especially 3-4) is not using “united-with-Him-in-the-likeness-of-His-death”, must mean physical water, rather than “immersed-in-His-DEATH”.
Lk12:50 Jesus was already waterbaptized, but still had a major baptism to undergo. His death was the second baptism!
…sorry but post 303 is basically the same issue… both my comp and I are being fried so please, accept my apologies for not reengaging this one (my response would be the same as 303–I suspect).
Maran atha!
Angel
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Gadgeteer
Guest
Hello, brother.
Per verses like Rom6:2 and 2Tim2:11, everyone “dies” upon becoming Christian. It is a spiritual death, we die to sin.
Perhaps Robertson’s comment would be interesting:
Robertsons Word Pictures said:
Robertson agrees that Jesus is speaking “metaphorically” in Lk12:49, not actual fire.
The word “baptizo” simply means “to immerse”; not always does it mean water.
We are united with Him:
“(we) have been baptized into His death…
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death…” Rom6:3-5
And, we are also united in His resurrection:
“…certainly we shall also be (united with Him) in the likeness of His resurrection…”
Verse six says our old self was crucified with Him, that …we may no longer be slaves to sin."
Verse seven, we have died, so we are now free from sin.
Verse sixteen when we present ourselves as slaves for obedience, we are slaves of the one we obey — either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness.
Verse 17 though we were slaves of sin (in the middle of that slavery!), we became obedient from our hearts and enslaved to righteousness.
Verse 22 we are freed from sin, and enslaved to God.
It is a willing enslavement; for “He is gentle and humble in heart, His yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
It is a joyful enslavement of love.
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Gadgeteer
Guest
Hi, James! I appreciate your reply!
I understand your view on “waterbaptism”; I’m not understanding why that specific verse (John3:5) must be about water-baptism, rather than merely repeating the next verse “unless one is born of flesh and (also) Spirit”?
Your view of waterbaptism is “when a person is born-of-the-Spirit”. So you contend:
“Unless one is born-of-the-Spirit, and born of the Spirit…
That which is born of the flesh …and that which is born of the Spirit…”
I perceive:
“Unless one is born-of-water/physical, and born of the Spirit…
That which is born of the flesh …and that which is born of the Spirit…”
From Strong’s Greek Lexicon:
hydōr
1-4 “of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted”
That’s my question – why did Jesus have to mean “waterbaptism” (and then the next statement “flesh, AND Spirit”) — rather than both statements “physical AND spiritual”?
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Gadgeteer
Guest
Excellent idea.
Well, rats. I flunked math! Fifty-six plus four is SIXTY verses, not forty…
uch::banghead:Which “book” is Catholic? Augustine’s???
Soooo, if after two corrections I don’t accept all Church doctrines (and convert to Catholicism), you will no longer talk with me?Paul says they are already self condemned.
G
Gadgeteer
Guest
My spell-checker rendered it “facetious”.
From the link (bibleapps.com/greek):
Cognate: 141 hairetikós (an adjective, derived from 138 /hairéomai, “to choose, have a distinctive opinion”) – a factious person, specializing in half-truths and misimpressions “to win others over” to their personal opinion (misguided zeal) – while creating harmful divisions (used only in Tit 3:10). See 139 (hairesis).
“Half-truths and misimpressions to win other overs” – obviously consciously. Conscious deception — “while creating harmful division”.
I’ve been debating Calvinists for years; they read (for example) 1Cor2:14 and perceive “Unregenerated men cannot understand the Gospel, therefore they cannot believe and receive Jesus until God monergistically gives them a new heart and gives them understanding.”
But verse 12 says men have to receive the Spirit first (can only mean “have to believe and receive Jesus and be saved”!) — only then are those things that unbelievers do not have, taught.
“Monergism” – the idea that God must first reach down from Heaven and give a few men new hearts, to make them understand Him so that they may observe His statutes.
And Deuteronomy30 says:
"It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments
“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today that you shall surely perish.”
I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life
…by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him"
Is “the-word-of-faith” (the same that Jesus brought, per Rom10:8-9) – is it in the hearts and mouths of even those who disobey and perish? Yes. Diametrically opposed to Reformed Theology and Monergism. Completely opposite.
Solid and fully consistent Scripture from the OT, affirmed by Paul in the NT as “the same faith we are preaching about Jesus”. No deception, no half-truths or misimpressions, no causing harmful divisions. Such is the discussion we have with Calvinists.
What about discussions here, between us? Have they been with “deception” or “half-truths” or “misimpressions”, to win over others and cause harmful divisions? I have not seen that on any side. I pray that we can discourse, mature in Scriptural understanding, celebrate what we have in common, and set aside differences we have that are non-life-threatening until Jesus returns and we all will be family with Him.
Can we do that? I believe “yes”.
From the link (bibleapps.com/greek):
Cognate: 141 hairetikós (an adjective, derived from 138 /hairéomai, “to choose, have a distinctive opinion”) – a factious person, specializing in half-truths and misimpressions “to win others over” to their personal opinion (misguided zeal) – while creating harmful divisions (used only in Tit 3:10). See 139 (hairesis).
“Half-truths and misimpressions to win other overs” – obviously consciously. Conscious deception — “while creating harmful division”.
I’ve been debating Calvinists for years; they read (for example) 1Cor2:14 and perceive “Unregenerated men cannot understand the Gospel, therefore they cannot believe and receive Jesus until God monergistically gives them a new heart and gives them understanding.”
But verse 12 says men have to receive the Spirit first (can only mean “have to believe and receive Jesus and be saved”!) — only then are those things that unbelievers do not have, taught.
“Monergism” – the idea that God must first reach down from Heaven and give a few men new hearts, to make them understand Him so that they may observe His statutes.
And Deuteronomy30 says:
"It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments
“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today that you shall surely perish.”
I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life
…by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him"
Is “the-word-of-faith” (the same that Jesus brought, per Rom10:8-9) – is it in the hearts and mouths of even those who disobey and perish? Yes. Diametrically opposed to Reformed Theology and Monergism. Completely opposite.
Solid and fully consistent Scripture from the OT, affirmed by Paul in the NT as “the same faith we are preaching about Jesus”. No deception, no half-truths or misimpressions, no causing harmful divisions. Such is the discussion we have with Calvinists.
What about discussions here, between us? Have they been with “deception” or “half-truths” or “misimpressions”, to win over others and cause harmful divisions? I have not seen that on any side. I pray that we can discourse, mature in Scriptural understanding, celebrate what we have in common, and set aside differences we have that are non-life-threatening until Jesus returns and we all will be family with Him.
Can we do that? I believe “yes”.
J
James248
Guest
From Aquinas’s Catnea Aurea:Hi, James! I appreciate your reply!
I understand your view on “waterbaptism”; I’m not understanding why that specific verse (John3:5) must be about water-baptism, rather than merely repeating the next verse “unless one is born of flesh and (also) Spirit”?
Your view of waterbaptism is “when a person is born-of-the-Spirit”. So you contend:
“Unless one is born-of-the-Spirit, and born of the Spirit…
That which is born of the flesh …and that which is born of the Spirit…”
I perceive:
“Unless one is born-of-water/physical, and born of the Spirit…
That which is born of the flesh …and that which is born of the Spirit…”
From Strong’s Greek Lexicon:
hydōr
1-4 “of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted”
That’s my question – why did Jesus have to mean “waterbaptism” (and then the next statement “flesh, AND Spirit”) — rather than both statements “physical AND spiritual”?
CHRYS. If any one asks how a man is born of water, I ask in return, how Adam was born from the ground. For as in the beginning though the element of earth was the subject-matter, the man was the work of the fashioner; so now too, though the element of water is the subject-matter, the whole work is done by the Spirit of grace. He then gave Paradise for a place to dwell in; now He has opened heaven to us. But what need is there of water, to those who receive the Holy Ghost? It carries out the divine symbols of burial, mortification, resurrection, and life. For by the immersion of our heads in the water, the old man disappears and is buried as it were in a sepulcher, whence he ascends a new man. Thus should you learn, that the virtue of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, fills all things. For which reason also Christ lay three days in the grave before His resurrection. That then which the womb is to the offspring, water is to the believer; he is fashioned and formed in the water. But that which is fashioned in the womb needs time; whereas the water all is done in an instant. For the nature of the body is such as to require time for its completion; but spiritual creations are perfect from the beginning. From the time that our Lord ascended out of the Jordan, water produces no longer reptiles, i.e. living souls; but souls rational and endued with the Spirit.
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steve_b
Guest
No sweat. That’s not what I was referring to anywayExcellent idea.
Well, rats. I flunked math! Fifty-six plus four is SIXTY verses, not forty…
Gadgeteerr:
I was referring to the NT in particular, but in extension, the bible in general. I’ve posted the links for proof of that many times.
I show that passage, to show, Paul is setting limits on how far one is to go in correcting someone who is baptized AND is in heresy. Paul is saying, don’t get into protracted arguments, with someone who is in heresy and won’t accept correction.Soooo, if after two corrections I don’t accept all Church doctrines (and convert to Catholicism), you will no longer talk with me?
Gadgeteer, we’re just discussing all types of issues. We’re not arguing. You’ll know if I’m ever going to back off.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Gadgeteer!No, you don’t view it as a “symbol”, but as the actual necessary door to “receiving the Spirit” and “washing-away-sins”. Which confuses me about how one does not need to be rewaterbaptized if he’s apostate and returns to belief.
…not Baptism… the visual of the Blood… we are not immersed in Christ’s Blood as our initiation into the Body of Christ; this is the symbolic measure: by being immersed in water, in Obedience to God’s Command, we are mystically and symbolically immersed in His Blood (His Passion, His Death, His Resurrection).
Baptism in water is what regenerates; not because of the element (water) but because of the Obedience to the Divine Command as the Hebrews in the desert were saved/healed not by the image of the bronze serpent but by their Obedience to Yahweh God Who Decreed that those who wished to be saved/healed must look upon the image of their torture… this image is then translated to Christ:
(1 Corinthians 1:23-24)
Yet, without the water Baptism none could take part in His Body… that is the reason why Cephas did not stop at ‘they are all spiritual; because the Holy Spirit has demonstrated through them they have in deed surpass any need of water Baptism.’
Once part of the Fold (the Mystical Body of Christ: the Church) the Believers share in Christ’s Inheritance.
…the problem you are having is that you equate being United to Christ with Baptism of the Holy Spirit–this would necessitate two things: 1) that all who were Baptized by John the Baptist be and by Jesus’ disciples as well as those who died before the Incarnation of the Word cannot partake of Christ’s Blood (Passion, Death, and Resurrection), and 2) the Apostles allowed a corruption of Baptism to take place as so many Believers (the Apostles included, most likely) Baptized themselves for their dead loved ones–in order to make them part of the Fold.
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Gadgeteer!
Jesus’s Cup is a physical torment, torture, crucifixion, death… some of His Disciples will in deed experience the same–some are experiencing it even today, in various places in the world.
Yet, not all Believers will experience a physical passion and death… but all Believers will experience a Mystical passion and death… and as all experience Christ’s Cup then all will be raised (resurrected) as Christ was Resurrected by the Holy Spirit!
…and yet, not all of us have died; too many Christians embrace the world’s understanding of theology and Spirituality; not dying to themselves but actually crucifying Christ all over again as they make themselves one with unrighteousness (1 Corinthians 6:15-20); they may claim Him; they, at one time or another, may even preach, heal, cast out evil… in His Name… but they have not died to unrighteousness (St. Matthew 7:21-23); just because they had joined the Body through Baptism (water) that does not mean that they remained Faithful and Obedient!
. Many who think themselves “Christian”, have bought into a soft easy believism. That’s not what Jesus brought…
You changed it, and aren’t aware of the change; you associated “again” with water.
“Unless one is born-of-the-Spirit, and born-of-the-Spirit…
That which is flesh …and that which is spirit…”
Water-baptism in your view is 100% when one is “born-of-the-Spirit”. Why does that make sense more than this?
“Unless one is born-of-water/flesh, and (also!) born-of-the-Spirit…
That which is flesh …and that which is spirit…”
Why wasn’t Jesus saying “You are born physically, you must also be born spiritually”?
(…in BOTH verses?)
No, you are not saying “Christ-further-qualifies-it” — you are separating “born-of-the-Spirit and born-of-the-Spirit”, from “born-physically-AND-ALSO-born-spiritually”.
Okay — yet I still don’t know how we can insert “born-again-of-water” in Jesus’ discussion, rather than accept what he said “born-of-water and born-of-the-Spirit”.
I think that we will go on forever with this one (well, redundancy and circular does seem to intimate “forever”); it seems that there’s no way that I can get you to see that the water element is used by the Holy Spirit to transform man from sin to righteousness–not because of the element (water) but because of the Obedience to God’s Command that all should be Baptized… and that it is this Baptism that Unites us to Christ’s Mystical Body affording us the Mystical Experience of His Blood (Passion, Death, Resurrection).
You continue to equate regeneration with Baptism of the Holy Spirit and thusly you remove the water Baptism from existence (anything that is superfluous is inert: inexistent).
You also equate the Revelation of the Holy Spirit as the proof of Baptism in the Holy Spirit; but you do not seem to mind that there are so many variations of the Holy Spirit’s Revelation (from Pentecost, to semi Pentecost, to individual Revelations) and you do not acknowledge that there are reasons for these variations–only that they just happened to have happened.
I cannot accept anything other than what I have been attempting to convey.
We are at the impasse which engenders the circular element…
J
jcrichton
Guest
…I think it deals with keeping the site from being inundated by robotic interjections… regular posting is also terminated around 15 or 20 minutes…
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, brother!
…actually not; that is why some leave the Faith (yes, even Catholics Priests, Nuns, and Monks); they never fully accepted Christ… even though they were part of the Body through water Baptism… they refused to grow or reverted from Chris due to His Demands:
(St. Luke 9:62)
…and:
(St. Luke 9:23)
The word “baptizo” simply means “to immerse”; not always does it mean water.
We are united with Him:
“(we) have been baptized into His death…
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death…” Rom6:3-5
And, we are also united in His resurrection:
“…certainly we shall also be (united with Him) in the likeness of His resurrection…”
Verse six says our old self was crucified with Him, that …we may no longer be slaves to sin."
Verse seven, we have died, so we are now free from sin.
Verse sixteen when we present ourselves as slaves for obedience, we are slaves of the one we obey — either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness.
Verse 17 though we were slaves of sin (in the middle of that slavery!), we became obedient from our hearts and enslaved to righteousness.
Verse 22 we are freed from sin, and enslaved to God.
It is a willing enslavement; for “He is gentle and humble in heart, His yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
It is a joyful enslavement of love.
…from time to time I have noted that I am fully pedestrian… I’ve also stated that scholars and theologians often get caught up in their respective skills… this said, and with full respect, I do not see where Robertson has made any qualification other than place the issue of the fire on the cross…
…let’s take the “fire” element: it burns and consumes, correct? …but it also purifies…
Is Jesus yearning for a consuming fire that will remove sinners by passing Judgment or is Jesus yearning for the Purification of the world (Believers)?
What is Jesus’ gain by consuming/burning the shaft?
Yet consider what He says about a single sinner that turns to God:
(St. Luke 15:17)
Clearly, Jesus’ yearning must be the Purification of the world; the turning of the sinful man to God!
This is the Fire that He Brings… it is also the War (Holy) that He Brings… it is also the Division (Holy) that He Brings…
…and yes, once the sinful man turns to Christ (God), he must then grow in Knowledge and in Spirit… so he will become an alter Christus and share Christ’s inheritance as he shares, Mystically, in Christ’s Blood (Passion, Death, Resurrection).
…but sinful man does not get to have Fellowship imputed in him; if it were so, he would have lost his freewill; it is a process… Knowledge of Christ, Baptism in Christ, sharing in Christ’s Body/Fellowship, Growth in Christ, Emulation of Christ (dying to self [sin] and partaking in Christ’s Blood (Passion, Death, Resurrection).
Maran atha!
Angel
D
De_Maria
Guest
Hiya, bro.
- But it usually means washing with water.
- And it doesn’t always mean to immerse. It usually means “to wash”.
- It also means to “engulf”, as in baptism by fire.
- And it also means to cleanse.
G
Gadgeteer
Guest
Hi, James! Thanx for your post!
(…although, the image of “water-producing-reptiles” was a little unnerving…)
G
Gadgeteer
Guest
No sweat. That’s not what I was referring to anyway
I was referring to the NT in particular, but in extension, the bible in general. I’ve posted the links for proof of that many times.
That’s like what he says in Heb6 — "don’t keep preaching repentance to those who don’t want to repent…"
Thank you.Gadgeteer, we’re just discussing all types of issues. We’re not arguing. You’ll know if I’m ever going to back off.
:hug1:
D
De_Maria
Guest
Huh? Where in Heb 6?
That’s like what he says in Heb6 — "don’t keep preaching repentance to those who don’t want to repent…"
G
Gadgeteer
Guest
Hello, brother!
Yes; so are we, without His grace.
As you know, I don’t read Rom6:3-4 “united to Christ’s death through (water) Baptism” — but rather, "united with Him through baptism-into-death…"
Yes; sometimes we have to repeat James1:12 to ourselves — and then perhaps Philip4:13. 1Jn4:4? John16:33!
Jesus is the ONE BOSS from whom no one wants to hear “You’re fired!”
Agreed – Heb5:9.
No, the “cup” is His death. As in the Garden of Gethsemane (bet no one can say that five times fast!) — “Father if you will take this cup from Me; but not My will but Yours…”
You are inferring the idea of “water” in 1Cor6…
I’ve wondered about verse 18 (1Cor6) — even today when so many refuse the idea of God and God’s morality, there are over 300 STD’s — a dozen or more incurable, several fatal. Doesn’t that scare people?
Someone said "God did not make rules so we’d have less fun; He made rules to protect us." But the destroyer deceives people until they’re destroyed. May we “save others snatching them from the fire”, leading to Jesus as many as we can!
G
Gadgeteer
Guest
Verse 1 – “let us press on to maturity not laying again a foundation of repentance…”
Stop preaching the same thing over and over.
Verse 4-5 “in the case of those WHO” – then follows a clear description of those who were (once) saved!
Verse 6 — those who HAVE FALLEN away; aorist active participle, perhaps “having fallen away” — it is IMPOSSIBLE (actually, “adunatos” powerless/impotent) to restore them to repentance — since/because (and footnoted in NASB “while”!) they crucify Jesus again (by constant sin, see Heb10:26-28)
So, “don’t-keep-preaching-to-those-who-don’t-want”, is summation…
- Status