Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Jesus’s Cup is a physical torment, torture, crucifixion, death… some of His Disciples will in deed experience the same–some are experiencing it even today, in various places in the world.

Yet, not all Believers will experience a physical passion and death… but all Believers will experience a Mystical passion and death… and as all experience Christ’s Cup then all will be raised (resurrected) as Christ was Resurrected by the Holy Spirit!

I just don’t see it saying “we have to (physically) die, and/or be crucified”. Other verses say “we have to die” — Spiritually, die to sin; only those who have died are alive in Christ.

…and yet, not all of us have died; too many Christians embrace the world’s understanding of theology and Spirituality; not dying to themselves but actually crucifying Christ all over again as they make themselves one with unrighteousness (1 Corinthians 6:15-20); they may claim Him; they, at one time or another, may even preach, heal, cast out evil… in His Name… but they have not died to unrighteousness (St. Matthew 7:21-23); just because they had joined the Body through Baptism (water) that does not mean that they remained Faithful and Obedient!

Well said! They are “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, they “have a form of godliness but deny the power”.

Speaking of wolves — has any OSAS’er (including Calvinists) been able to answer Acts20:28-29? Who is “the-flock”, and what does “not-sparing” mean?

I think that we will go on forever with this one (well, redundancy and circular does seem to intimate “forever”); it seems that there’s no way that I can get you to see that the water element is used by the Holy Spirit to transform man from sin to righteousness–not because of the element (water) but because of the Obedience to God’s Command that all should be Baptized… and that it is this Baptism that Unites us to Christ’s Mystical Body affording us the Mystical Experience of His Blood (Passion, Death, Resurrection).

How many sides does a circle have?

(The IN-side, and the OUT-side…)

You continue to equate regeneration with Baptism of the Holy Spirit

No, in Matt3:11 and Rom8:15 and others, “baptized-with-the-Spirit”, simply means “receiving Him.” Not really a separate event from salvation, it’s part of becoming saved.

and thusly you remove the water Baptism from existence (anything that is superfluous is inert: inexistent).

I see it as a “symbol”; and ackowledge Peter’s words in 1:3:21, “waterbaptism saves you as an appeal to God for a clear conscience” — if accompanied by repentance.

You also equate the Revelation of the Holy Spirit as the proof of Baptism in the Holy Spirit; but you do not seem to mind that there are so many variations of the Holy Spirit’s Revelation (from Pentecost, to semi Pentecost, to individual Revelations) and you do not acknowledge that there are reasons for these variations–only that they just happened to have happened.

What do you mean “revelation-of-the-Holy-Spirit”? We receive the Spirit, an intimate union just as we are united to Jesus. That it is a conspicuous (and constant) fellowship, is clear in verses like Eph5:18…

I cannot accept anything other than what I have been attempting to convey.

We are at the impasse which engenders the circular element…

Actually, you and I are more in agreement than you think. We agree waterbaptism is a symbol, it’s a command, and we agree salvation is by God’s grace through our faith and not by works; we both have been waterbaptized, we accept each other as brothers-in-Christ.

There’s a lot more on which we agree…

 

[jcrichton]

Hello, brother!

Yes; so are we, without His grace.

Hi, brother!

…as with many things, this has to do with vocabulary and human understanding… take the statement, “we are all God’s children.”

I have heard this so many times (as the “predestination” thing): live, from non-denominationals, from the average stick-in-the-mud, on-line, on Catholic television, and even from the occasional pulpit (Catholic)… it is a wonderful “feel good theology;” it is perhaps the deepest felt desire of the Saints (very devote Christians)… but the reality is that it is not a blanket sonship; while the inheritance is there, irrevocable, each individual must submit him/herself to God in humble Obedience (St. John 1:10-13; 3:14-21–conversely: St. Luke 15:11-32).

Divine Grace (as is Salvation) is exactly the same! It is irrevocable; it is there for everyone to enjoy–yet, God will not coerce anyone to partake of it nor will He subjugate anyone’s freewill in order to compel us to accept His Divine Gift.

That is why Purification is for all–but not all choose to enjoy it!

As you know, I don’t read Rom6:3-4 “united to Christ’s death through (water) Baptism” — but rather, "united with Him through baptism-into-death…"

Yes, that’s why we can go on into eternity and beyond… and not come to accords.

Yes; sometimes we have to repeat James1:12 to ourselves — and then perhaps Philip4:13. 1Jn4:4? John16:33!

Jesus is the ONE BOSS from whom no one wants to hear "You’re fired

!"


Exactly–but people seldom place things in the right perspective (offering to God our lives means everything: good, bad, joy, sorrow, failures, successes… seek comfort in Him and He will Give us Peace).

Thanks for the laugh; you had me going:

…that is in deed the last thing we would want to hear… not only is it permanent, but it’s an unending fire where the worm never die… :bigyikes:

No, the “cup” is His death. As in the Garden of Gethsemane (bet no one can say that five times fast!) — "Father if you will take this cup

from Me; but not My will but Yours…"
…perhaps I was not clear enough; the Cup is Jesus’ Passion and Death and you see this as the Baptism in Christ (as above, Romans 6:3-4)… which you then connect to the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit.”

Basically you use this as the initiation into the Body of Christ–water Baptism (to you) is just a gesture of obedience to Scriptures since Christ Himself was Baptized by St. John the Baptist.

Again, our vocabulary differ–here the difference hits on an important tenet of Catholic theology and Faith… which is why I cannot provide the necessary argument to meet your threshold.

You are inferring the idea of “water” in 1Cor6…

Correct! Water Baptism is the Baptism which immerse us into Christ’s Body; through water Baptism the Holy Spirit Seals us:

.13 Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the good news of your salvation, and have believed it; and you too have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise 14 the pledge of our inheritance which brings freedom for those whom God has taken for his own, to make his glory praised.

(Ephesians 1:13-14)
…in Catholic parlance, the Sacraments endows us with the indelible mark: the Seal of the Holy Spirit.

I’ve wondered about verse 18 (1Cor6) — even today when so many refuse the idea of God and God’s morality, there are over 300 STD’s — a dozen or more incurable, several fatal. Doesn’t that scare

people?
…yeah, we have been Created in the Image and Likeness of God… the Holy Spirit Himself warns us (test your conscience); but we have become deaf to Him (remember the prophet’s plea: …have they not heard? Romans 10-18-21); sadly Romans 1 sums describes it quite well… and St. John 3:19 summarizes it quite well:

19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

…that is why people love and gulp down hollowood’s spirituality: ‘everything goes and all will be saved regardless!’

Before the aids epidemic hit, there were all sorts of sex clubs… even a few psychobabblellists “teaching” how monogamy is against man’s anthropology as they engaged in sexual experiments with couples to “heal” their relationships so that they could live “fuller and healthier” life.

…when the epidemic hit… these clubs and practices went underground… people were not as engaged with the devil-may-care attitudes… the government was pressed and the pharmaceutical industry was pressed… out came the news of “miracle” drugs… stds were no longer to be feared; heck even aids will soon be cured… and the devil crept right back into mainstream hollowood and soon the rest became decadent history.

Someone said "God did not make rules so we’d have less fun; He made rules to protect us."

But the destroyer deceives people until they’re destroyed. May we “save others snatching them from the fire”, leading to Jesus as many as we can!


…well, I think that Jesus is the best Boss ever… He placed a high demand on what is expected of us (Salt of the earth; Light of the world; your justices must be greater than the masters of the Law…) but He placed a low threshold on our responsibility (there’s great joy in Heaven for a single sinner that Repents and Turns to God) so our responsibility is: one day at a time; one sinner (or Brethren) at a time!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I just don’t see it saying “we have to (physically) die, and/or be crucified”. Other verses say “we have to die” — Spiritually, die to sin; only those who have died are alive in Christ.

Hi!

…that’s because of vocabulary; to you these things are one and the same (the Cup, Jesus, Death, Resurrection, the Christian initiation into the Body of Christ, the Christian Mystical Unity with Christ where he/she experiments the Cup, Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

You do not see a period before being an initiate; a period of being an initiate, and a period of Spiritual Growth (which goes to that “Salvation” thing: done and done as soon as the prayer or whatever method is understood/used by your group).

For me, there’s a separation of Christ’s Actual experience, which some of His Disciples will in deed partake of, the initiation of a non-Believer into the Body, and a Growth where the Believer matures into the likeness of Christ as he/she humble Unites with Jesus–being Obedient to the Unfolding of what it means to share/partake of Christ’s Blood/Cup (Passion, Death, and Resurrection).

Speaking of wolves — has any OSAS’er (including Calvinists) been able to answer Acts20:28-29? Who is “the-flock”, and what does “not-sparing” mean?

They are caught in a web so thick that light cannot penetrate it; if a glimmer of light hits, they have become so accustomed to their situation that it is shunned as counterfeit.

How many sides does a circle have?

(The IN-side, and the OUT-side…)

…here’s what I mean about vocabulary… the second I read through the query, I thought no sides but a myriad of tangents!

No, in Matt3:11 and Rom8:15 and others, “baptized-with-the-Spirit”, simply means “receiving Him.”

Not really a separate event from salvation, it’s part of becoming saved.
Again, this is precisely the problem… we have different understandings and cannot reconcile them; where you see a “all done” Salvation, we see an initiation into the Body and a Growth.

…where you see “symbol,” we see the seed of the Holy Spirit and the Seal of the Holy Spirit being implanted in man’s spirit (soul)–we see the Purification… the renewing of the self/man; the changing of the old into the new.

…where you see the “all done,” we see the need of the newly inserted member to respond and ‘Be Holy,’ as the Holy Spirit, that separated him/her from the world enables His Grace to flourish in him/her.

I see it as a “symbol”; and ackowledge Peter’s words in 1:3:21, “waterbaptism saves you as an appeal to God for a clear conscience” — if accompanied by

repentance.
Yet, St. Peter is not inferring this is a “symbol” of what has/will happen; he is in deed claiming that water Baptism does Saves; and those who died prior to the Incarnation of the world are not left out… here’s the symbolism: as those that died in the flood were Baptized into Christ: Mystical Body–Mystical Inclusion–not symbolic inclusion.

What do you mean “revelation-of-the-Holy-Spirit”? We receive the Spirit, an intimate union just as we are united to Jesus. That it is a conspicuous (and constant) fellowship, is clear in verses like Eph5:18…

Revelation = things that happened that were supernatural in essence, as the event at Pentecost, the mini-Pentecost with the Gentiles, and Philip’s transportation at the speed of light.

Actually, you and I are more in agreement than you think. We agree waterbaptism is a symbol, it’s a command, and we agree salvation is by God’s grace through our faith and not by works; we both have been waterbaptized, we accept each other as brothers-in-Christ.

There’s a lot more on which we agree…

I concur with we that we have many points of congruency and agreement; however, there are differences in understanding; while most non-Catholics hold to water Baptism as a “symbol,” they negate any value to it other than that of “obedience.” Which is quite distinct from Catholic understanding of the “symbolism” of Baptism.

For a Catholic Baptism is one of the Seven Sacraments; it is a very important Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of Initiation: the Sacrament in which the Holy Spirit Cleanses of from our sins and Unites us to Christ’s Body. What is “symbolic” for us is the Cleansing of the water–it is not the element that Cleanses but the Holy Spirit in response to our Obedience to God’s Command that we must be Baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…not Baptism… the visual of the Blood… we are not immersed in Christ’s Blood as our initiation into the Body of Christ; this is the symbolic measure: by being immersed in water, in Obedience to God’s Command, we are mystically and symbolically immersed in His Blood (His Passion, His Death, His Resurrection).

Baptism in water is what regenerates; not because of the element (water) but because of the Obedience to the Divine Command as the Hebrews in the desert were saved/healed not by the image of the bronze serpent but by their Obedience to Yahweh God Who Decreed that those who wished to be saved/healed must look upon the image of their torture… this image is then translated to Christ:

A true believer in Jesus, filled with the Spirit, can apostatize; therefore he is no longer regenerated. If he returns (James5:19-20), he becomes regenerated …again…

Yet, without the water Baptism none could take part in His Body… that is the reason why Cephas did not stop at ‘they are all spiritual; because the Holy Spirit has demonstrated through them they have in deed surpass any need of water Baptism.’

Once part of the Fold (the Mystical Body of Christ: the Church) the Believers share in Christ’s Inheritance.

…the problem you are having is that you equate being United to Christ with Baptism of the Holy Spirit–this would necessitate two things: 1) that all who were Baptized by John the Baptist be and by Jesus’ disciples as well as those who died before the Incarnation of the Word cannot partake of Christ’s Blood (Passion, Death, and Resurrection), and 2) the Apostles allowed a corruption of Baptism to take place as so many Believers (the Apostles included, most likely) Baptized themselves for their dead loved ones–in order to make them part of the Fold.

As I said, I perceive “baptized-by-the-Holy-Spirit”, to be simply another way of saying “received-the-Spirit”.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, brother!

…actually not; that is why some leave the Faith (yes, even Catholics Priests, Nuns, and Monks); they never fully accepted Christ… even though they were part of the Body through water Baptism… they refused to grow or reverted from Chris due to His Demands:

Question — salvation being an indwelt fellowship with God through Jesus (1Jn1:3, 1Jn5:11-13) — and especially Gal2:20 — can one who “refuses-to-grow”, really have the intimate union that everyone said defined salvation?

(You know me by now that I perceive “no” to that question…)

In Matt7:21-23, echoed in Rev3:14-21, are those who think they are saved, but are in for a terrifying shock when Jesus returns and sends them away.

…from time to time I have noted that I am fully pedestrian… I’ve also stated that scholars and theologians often get caught up in their respective skills… this said, and with full respect, I do not see where Robertson has made any qualification other than place the issue of the fire on the cross…

…let’s take the “fire” element: it burns and consumes, correct? …but it also purifies…

But which verse is which? Do you and I differ on Matt3:11-12, where verse 12 expands upon verse 11? Or do you perceive John switches and uses the same word “fire” (“pyr” in verse 11, and in verse 12 also “pyr”) — to mean two different things?

Is Jesus yearning for a consuming fire that will remove sinners by passing Judgment or is Jesus yearning for the Purification of the world (Believers)?

What is Jesus’ gain by consuming/burning the shaft?

Chaff?

Yet consider what He says about a single sinner that turns to God:

Clearly, Jesus’ yearning must be the Purification of the world; the turning of the sinful man to God!

This is the Fire that He Brings… it is also the War (Holy) that He Brings… it is also the Division (Holy) that He Brings…

Yes it’s the same word “pyr” in Lk12:49; but if context is always our guide, He’s not excited about burning the wicked; as Ezk18 says God would rather men turn from their sin and not perish.

So yes I do see two different meanings between Matt3:11-12, and Lk12:49. Matt3:11-12 are in context with each other, Lk12 is a different context.

…and yes, once the sinful man turns to Christ (God), he must then grow in Knowledge and in Spirit… so he will become an alter Christus and share Christ’s inheritance as he shares, Mystically, in Christ’s Blood (Passion, Death, Resurrection).

…but sinful man does not get to have Fellowship imputed in him; if it were so, he would have lost his freewill; it is a process… Knowledge of Christ, Baptism in Christ, sharing in Christ’s Body/Fellowship, Growth in Christ, Emulation of Christ (dying to self [sin] and partaking in Christ’s Blood (Passion, Death, Resurrection).

A lot of this we are in agreement on; I think our differences are not major.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hiya, bro.

1. But it usually means washing with water.
2. And it doesn’t always mean to immerse. It usually means “to wash”.
3. It also means to “engulf”, as in baptism by fire.
4. And it also means to cleanse.

So, it’s got many meanings. As do most words.

You know, I can’t really argue that; I’m not a Greek scholar. But I look at the Greek Lexicon, all it says is “immerse”.

But it is “apolouō” washed-off in 1Cor6:11, and “loutron” bathing in Titus3:5.

But the context in which we use it, is the context which is provided by the Teachings of Jesus Christ, which are brought to us by the Catholic Church. And that says, that when we speak in terms of Christ’s requirement, it is Baptism in water.

In Matt3:11, “John-with-water, but Jesus-with-Spirit” — don’t you see a separation between “water” and “receiving-the-Spirit”?

…or do you read it as "John-with-water, but Jesus-with-water-imparting-the-Spirit"?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, brother!

…as with many things, this has to do with vocabulary and human understanding… take the statement, “we are all God’s children.”

I have heard this so many times (as the “predestination” thing): live, from non-denominationals, from the average stick-in-the-mud, on-line, on Catholic television, and even from the occasional pulpit (Catholic)… it is a wonderful “feel good theology;” it is perhaps the deepest felt desire of the Saints (very devote Christians)… but the reality is that it is not a blanket sonship; while the inheritance is there, irrevocable, each individual must submit him/herself to God in humble Obedience (St. John 1:10-13; 3:14-21–conversely: St. Luke 15:11-32).

Nicely said; the INHERITANCE is irrevocable (Rom11:29, 1Pet1:4-5), our possession of it can be revoked from our side…

Why else would Peter write 1:1:9?
And Paul Rom1:16? John Rev3:11, and many others?

Divine Grace (as is Salvation) is exactly the same! It is irrevocable; it is there for everyone to enjoy–yet, God will not coerce anyone to partake of it nor will He subjugate anyone’s freewill in order to compel us to accept His Divine Gift.

That is why Purification is for all–but not all choose to enjoy it!

That’s correct; Rom5 words it very nicely, “SO THEN condemnation to all, EVEN SO justification to all” (verse 18). But verse 17 says those who RECEIVE God’s grace and righteousness.

We have to receive, and — "As you have received Jesus, SO WALK IN Him (guarding against deception!) Col2:6-8!!!

Thanks for the laugh; you had me going:

I love making people laugh; more when people make me laugh. And when I get one-UPPED, I’m ecstatic!

…that is in deed the last thing we would want to hear… not only is it permanent, but it’s an unending fire where the worm never die… :bigyikes:

]…perhaps I was not clear enough; the Cup is Jesus’ Passion and Death and you see this as the Baptism in Christ (as above, Romans 6:3-4)… which you then connect to the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit.”

Well, I’m stuck on the verses I cited about “you must die” and “if we have died”. We, all…

Basically you use this as the initiation into the Body of Christ–water Baptism (to you) is just a gesture of obedience to Scriptures since Christ Himself was Baptized by St. John the Baptist.

Again, our vocabulary differ–here the difference hits on an important tenet of Catholic theology and Faith… which is why I cannot provide the necessary argument to meet your threshold.

Yeah, I’m beginning to understand the importance here.

You are inferring the idea of “water” in 1Cor6…

Correct! Water Baptism is the Baptism which immerse us into Christ’s Body; through water Baptism the Holy Spirit Seals us:

Infer:
deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements…

By “infer”, I meant discerning something that’s not in the writing.

…in Catholic parlance, the Sacraments endows us with the indelible mark: the Seal of the Holy Spirit.

One of my arguments against Calvinists (specifically Eph1:11), two verses later thirteen says we were sealed to the Spirit AFTER believing. Seals were meant to be broken; if the seal of the Spirit is affixed BY belief, then yes unbelief breaks the seal. (Therefore “do not grieve”, “do not quench”, and “has insulted”)

…people were not as engaged with the devil-may-care attitudes… the government was pressed and the pharmaceutical industry was pressed… out came the news of “miracle” drugs… stds were no longer to be feared; heck even aids will soon be cured… and the devil crept right back into mainstream hollowood and soon the rest became decadent history.

I confess to being a bit angry at all the money spent curing an avoidable disease (even innocents who get it — wives, blood-product-recipients – a small percentage!) — do so because of one other person’s selfish choice. Better to spend money on less avoidable diseases; cancer, diabetes, etcetera.

…well, I think that Jesus is the best Boss ever… He placed a high demand on what is expected of us (Salt of the earth; Light of the world; your justices must be greater than the masters of the Law…) but He placed a low threshold on our responsibility (there’s great joy in Heaven for a single sinner that Repents and Turns to God) so our responsibility is: one day at a time; one sinner (or Brethren) at a time!

Our best witness, is to tell then “yes He’s just, no He sends no one to Hell (people do that by themselves), but He is PERFECT LOVE”. We do not have less fun to pursue Him; He is our joy, our song, and our delight. That’s especially persuasive to people like Muslims; they live in fear, and are astonished to hear “there is no fear in love”!

 

[Gadgeteer]

…that’s because of vocabulary; to you these things are one and the same (the Cup, Jesus, Death, Resurrection, the Christian initiation into the Body of Christ, the Christian Mystical Unity with Christ where he/she experiments the Cup, Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

You do not see a period before being an initiate; a period of being an initiate, and a period of Spiritual Growth (which goes to that “Salvation” thing: done and done as soon as the prayer or whatever method is understood/used by your group).

I think people get too bogged down in the “growth” thing, and don’t realize that salvation is a UNION between two people; as such, it does not take a lifetime to be filled with His righteousness, but more a good mentor’s explanation. Did I ever tell you the story taught by D. James Kennedy, late of Coral Ridge Ministries?

When one concedes to extended growth, he becomes tolerant of “carnal Christianity”; and invents exceptions to Paul’s absolutes of 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10.

“A person can be saved, but it takes awhile for him to mature enough to turn away from sin.”

That is consistent with the OSAS view called “Antinomianism”! How long of “a while”? Years? Decades?

For me, there’s a separation of Christ’s Actual experience, which some of His Disciples will in deed partake of, the initiation of a non-Believer into the Body, and a Growth where the Believer matures into the likeness of Christ as he/she humble Unites with Jesus–being Obedient to the Unfolding of what it means to share/partake of Christ’s Blood/Cup (Passion, Death, and Resurrection).

When Jesus said “are you willing to drink My cup”, did He mean some, or all?

They are caught in a web so thick that light cannot penetrate it; if a glimmer of light hits, they have become so accustomed to their situation that it is shunned as counterfeit.

You’re right! Acts20:28-30 has to be ignored! What good is a doctrine that cannot accept all verses?

…here’s what I mean about vocabulary… the second I read through the query, I thought no sides but a myriad of tangents!

Nice! A math person! Did you hear what Noah said to the animals, as they disemb-arked?
Elephants — “Go forth and multiply!”
Giraffes — “Go forth and multiply!”
Adders – “But Noah, we’re adders, we can’t multiply!”

Noah: "Well, use LOGS…"

(Only a math person will get that!)

Again, this is precisely the problem… we have different understandings and cannot reconcile them; where you see a “all done” Salvation, we see an initiation into the Body and a Growth.

I think verses like Col2:14 pretty much settle the problem; if our “certificate of debt” is nailed to the Cross, all the way onto the Cross, then that was done two thousand years ago.

So – yes “all done” in the sense of Jesus nailing the certificates to the Cross.
…but not “all done” unless we abide in salvation, and in Him.

…where you see “symbol,” we see the seed of the Holy Spirit and the Seal of the Holy Spirit being implanted in man’s spirit (soul)–we see the Purification… the renewing of the self/man; the changing of the old into the new.

And over and over we’re warned to “LAY ASIDE the old man, PUT ON the new” — Eph4:22-24, Col3:9-10…

…where you see the “all done,” we see the need of the newly inserted member to respond and ‘Be Holy,’ as the Holy Spirit, that separated him/her from the world enables His Grace to flourish in him/her.

No, you and I agree “walk in Him”. And “keep yourselves in the love of God…”

Yet, St. Peter is not inferring this is a “symbol” of what has/will happen; he is in deed claiming that water Baptism does Saves; and those who died prior to the Incarnation of the world are not left out… here’s the symbolism: as those that died in the flood were Baptized into Christ: Mystical Body–Mystical Inclusion–not symbolic inclusion.

Those who died in the flood? Well, they were destroyed. Luke17:27, “apollymi”. That’s one of the things against Pre-Trib-Rapture — they think Jesus will return and TAKE the RIGHTEOUS UP; no, those who get taken in Matt24:40-41, and Lk17:26-31, are destroyed and thrown to vultures. It’s not the TAKEN who are righteous, but the LEFTBEHIND.

Revelation = things that happened that were supernatural in essence, as the event at Pentecost, the mini-Pentecost with the Gentiles, and Philip’s transportation at the speed of light.

I would really like to know how to go faster than light…

I concur with we that we have many points of congruency and agreement; however, there are differences in understanding; while most non-Catholics hold to water Baptism as a “symbol,” they negate any value to it other than that of “obedience.” Which is quite distinct from Catholic understanding of the “symbolism” of Baptism.

Speaking for myself, one who refuses the water, isn’t saved.

For a Catholic Baptism is one of the Seven Sacraments; it is a very important Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of Initiation: the Sacrament in which the Holy Spirit Cleanses of from our sins and Unites us to Christ’s Body. What is “symbolic” for us is the Cleansing of the water–it is not the element that Cleanses but the Holy Spirit in response to our Obedience to God’s Command that we must be Baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Well, you have seen how I understand it. What we have in common is sufficient to look forward to being together with Jesus when He returns.

And that is an exciting, and sufficient goal!

 

[jcrichton]

A true believer in Jesus, filled with the Spirit, can apostatize; therefore he is no longer regenerated. If he returns (James5:19-20), he becomes regenerated …again…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…here’s where vocabulary gets us into murky waters (couldn’t help the pun); regeneration to Catholic means cleansing of Original Sin and personal sin (by commission or omission) which a person would have incurred prior to his/her Baptism.

Once a Catholic has been joined to the Body he/she would never ever receive the Sacrament of Baptism–as it is impossible to Cleanse the Original Sin that no longer exists in that person.

When a Catholic sins or if he/she gets to the point of apostasy (which is rejection of the Faith not just committing a sin) he/she is not Living in Grace (in the Spirit) so he/she must Reconcile him/herself to God through the Sacrament of Confession. This is where a person is held to his/her responsibility in Christ: Walk in the Light, as He is the Light.

The person is never regenerated.

As I said, I perceive “baptized-by-the-Holy-Spirit”, to be simply another way of saying “received-the-Spirit”.

Yes, again this is another of those vocabulary moments; we do not group everything into a single blow: ‘call on the Lord and you’re saved.’

Rather, Catholic Understanding is that we receive the Holy Spirit at the time of Baptism; that Baptism is the means to becoming a member of Christ’s Mystical Body; that the Holy Spirit continues to measure out Grace throughout our lifetime; that the Walk of Faith is nurtured by the Sacraments and that we are Taught, Guided and Protected by the Holy Spirit in our sojourn in the Faith.

The Sacrament of Confirmation is the Sacrament where we profess our Faith (confirm/reconfirm); it is also another specific moment where the Holy Spirit is Given to the Believer–yes, we are fortunate to get second helpings!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Question — salvation being an indwelt fellowship with God through Jesus (1Jn1:3, 1Jn5:11-13) — and especially Gal2:20 — can one who “refuses-to-grow”, really have the intimate union that everyone said defined salvation?

(You know me by now that I perceive “no” to that question…)

In Matt7:21-23, echoed in Rev3:14-21, are those who think they are saved, but are in for a terrifying shock when Jesus returns and sends them away.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

No!

…that is why the Epistles stress the battle that exists within man (Spirit vs. the flesh) and why it is Taught again and again that the Believers cannot turn back to sin, and that even those who are part of the Body (the Church) can, if they are not careful, lose their foothold on Salvation (I figure a little spin on this would be nice).

Sadly, the “feel good” theologies continue to deny the Word of God–‘don’t worry, all dogs go to heaven!’

But which verse is which? Do you and I differ on Matt3:11-12, where verse 12 expands upon verse 11? Or do you perceive John switches

and uses the same word “fire” (“pyr” in verse 11, and in verse 12 also “pyr”) — to mean two different things?

11 I baptise you in water for repentance, but the one who follows me is more powerful than I am, and I am not fit to carry his sandals; he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing-fan is in his hand; he will clear his threshing-floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn in a fire that will never go out.’

(St. Matthew 3:11-12)
v11 – this talks to St. John the Baptist Baptism, a Baptism in water. Then John expands into the Messianic Baptism: Holy Spirit and fire.

This is not a fire to remove the chaff from the world; it is not a fire to consume the elements; it is not a fire to scare people into submission. It is a fire of Purification.

v12 Expands on Jesus’ Work… but it is not the same argument/presentation; this is St. Matthew 24: Judgment Day… the chaff (those who refuse to believe and become part of Jesus’ Fold will be gathered into the Lake of Fire.

St. John is ushering the Kingdom of God… he proposes a water Baptism to turn man back to God and he Promises that Jesus, the Messiah, Who is following right behind him, will Baptize in the Holy Spirit and Fire. Then John uses a slight of hands and proposes: a gathering of the Saved and a gathering of those who are not Saved–the latter will end up in the consuming fire that never extinguishes.

Chaff?

…yeah, not the best proof-reader; and don’t forget I’m fighting time, and heat, and searching through Scriptures and additional resources, and fighting the system that can erase the work or call out on “text limit!”

A lot of this we are in agreement on; I think our differences are not major.

I concur. That’s why I enjoy or exchanges so much. Your Love of Christ and the Word brings us to common grounds, in spite of our respective vocabulary.
:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Nicely said; the INHERITANCE is irrevocable (Rom11:29, 1Pet1:4-5), our possession of it can be revoked from our side…

Why else would Peter write 1:1:9?
And Paul Rom1:16? John Rev3:11, and many others?

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Correct! That’s why I love Isaiah 1:15-20; God is so layback… ‘come let us talk this out… here’s where you’re wrong, here’s what I am Willing to Do, here’s your responsibility, and here’s where rejection of my Word gets you.’

It is to an intimate relationship that God Calls us!

That’s correct; Rom5 words it very nicely, “SO THEN condemnation to all, EVEN SO justification to all” (verse 18). But verse 17 says those who RECEIVE God’s grace and righteousness.

We have to receive, and — "As you have received Jesus, SO WALK IN Him (guarding against deception!) Col2:6-8!!!

…I have heard the expression (several times now) that ‘He Who Created you without your consent; will not Save you without your consent…’ God Calls us to an intimate relationship with Him and He is Guided by our freewill: if we Turn to Him, Heaven’s the Limit; if we reject Him… well Heaven has limits!

Yet, it is always up to us; the choice is always ours!

Well, I’m stuck on the verses I cited about “you must die” and “if we have died”. We, all…

…and I follow your understanding; my problem is how you come to the understanding and how you link it… you have a “all at once” economy; I have a portioned-out economy.

Infer

:
deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements…

By “infer”, I meant discerning something that’s not in the writing.
I think that part of what you do not see is what allows me to understand Scriptures the way that I do; you (non-Catholics) also rely on inference… but your only have the Written Tradition; since you do not have both the Oral and the Written Traditions you make the connections as you do; because I have both Traditions I am able to make the connections as I do.

One of my arguments against Calvinists (specifically Eph1:11), two verses later thirteen says we were sealed to the Spirit AFTER believing. Seals were meant to be broken; if the seal of the Spirit is affixed BY belief, then yes unbelief breaks the seal. (Therefore “do not grieve”, “do not quench”, and “has insulted”)

We’ve hit another one of those pesky voc… we do hold the same understanding; we understand this Seal not as a superficial and temporary medium–such as one that would be placed on a document or package to keep prying eyes from accessing the information/contents… rather, it is the in the form of “authentication” or “authorization” or “separation.”

It is permanent. It is unrepeatable.

Our best witness, is to tell then “yes He’s just, no He sends no one to Hell (people do that by themselves), but He is PERFECT LOVE”. We do not have less fun to pursue Him; He is our joy, our song, and our delight. That’s especially persuasive to people like Muslims; they live in fear, and are astonished to hear “there is no fear in love”!

Exactly! Witnessing Christ is bringing the “Good News” to all. How good does ‘you’re going to go to hell’ hits anyone?

Jesus even identified that the Son of man did not Come to Judge the world but to Save it… as one of His Definitions on Who He Is: “I AM the Resurrection and the Life!” would surely compel people to keep an open mind about getting to Know Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think people get too bogged down in the “growth” thing, and don’t realize that salvation is a UNION between two people; as such, it does not take a lifetime to be filled with His righteousness, but more a good mentor’s explanation. Did I ever tell you the story taught by D. James Kennedy, late of Coral Ridge Ministries?

When one concedes to extended growth, he becomes tolerant of “carnal Christianity”; and invents exceptions to Paul’s absolutes of 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10.

“A person can be saved, but it takes awhile for him to mature enough to turn away from sin.”

That is consistent with the OSAS view called “Antinomianism”! How long of “a while”? Years? Decades?

Hi!

…no… I don’t mean “make excuses” or refuse to abide… that’s hollowood’s spirituality; the popular belief is that none will perish or quite a very few… the ‘real bad seeds.’

…there are even those who claim “ignorance” as the means to Salvation–as if Scriptures are saying ‘the less you know the less accountable to God’s Judgment you will be.’

So, no.

Maturity in how we process, understand, adhere to Abiding in Christ, and how we fight temptation, and repent for our sins… there are people who don’t think a thing about smoking cigarettes… they make no connection with the Command not to kill… and they will fight you if you “bad mouth” tobacco products (or whatever else gets checked); they don’t see anything wrong (ditto with drugs, cheating, stealing, lying, cursing, fornication and adultery…); they are “good Christians.”

When Jesus said “are you willing to drink My cup”, did He mean some, or all?

Yes, but a lot who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior seldomly engage in anything that would upset their comfort and sensibilities… have you check out the number of Christians that get divorced?

Nice! A math person! Did you hear what Noah said to the animals, as they disemb-arked?
Elephants — “Go forth and multiply!”
Giraffes — “Go forth and multiply!”
Adders – "But Noah, we’re adders,

we can’t multiply!"

Noah: "Well, use LOGS…"

(Only a math person will get that!)
Yeah, but to what power?

I think verses like Col2:14 pretty much settle the problem; if our “certificate of debt” is nailed to the Cross, all the way onto the Cross, then that was done two thousand years ago.

So – yes “all done” in the sense of Jesus nailing the certificates to the Cross.
…but not “all done” unless we abide in salvation, and in Him.

And over and over we’re warned to “LAY ASIDE the old man, PUT ON the new” — Eph4:22-24, Col3:9-10…
I don’t think I’m explaining myself right; the “done and done” on our side–where on that very moment of entrance into the Body the person is a “mature” Believer.

…consider that if there’s no maturity because that one incident was “done and done” then the Epistles would not have been needed since they are not address to the uninitiated (non-Believers) but to the Church (can’t recall exactly how many times, but I think that it is one time only–as St. Paul asks that the Epistles be read/shared by all the churches).

Even in the Apostles’ own experience, they committed errors that needed to be corrected.

Those who died in the flood? Well, they were destroyed.

Luke17:27, “apollymi”. That’s one of the things against Pre-Trib-Rapture — they think Jesus will return and TAKE the RIGHTEOUS UP; no, those who get taken in Matt24:40-41, and Lk17:26-31, are destroyed and thrown to vultures. It’s not the TAKEN who are righteous, but the LEFTBEHIND.
Note that the passage speaks to those who were imprisoned; do you mean to say that the few that were found to be “friends” of God needed to be released and that Jesus, in the Spirit, needed to Preach to them?

I would really like to know how to go faster

than light…
…well, if God ever needs you to be there last week… the Holy Spirit could “transport” you at a speed faster than light (I think it’s part of Einstein’s time travel theory.

Speaking for myself, one who refuses the water, isn’t saved.

Well, you have seen how I understand it. What we have in common is sufficient to look forward to being together with Jesus when He returns.

And that is an exciting, and sufficient goal!

Yes. Not presuming to know what God knows; it is arguable that we would meet, perhaps right at the Parousia… I’ll be the one searching Scriptures on-line and by actual Bible!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

That’s like what he says in Heb6 — "don’t keep preaching repentance to those who don’t want to repent…"

Thank you.
:hug1:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…here’s where vocabulary gets us into murky waters (couldn’t help the pun);

I hope neither of our arguments is “all wet”!!!

regeneration to Catholic means cleansing of Original Sin and personal sin (by commission or omission) which a person would have incurred prior to his/her Baptism.

Once a Catholic has been joined to the Body he/she would never ever receive the Sacrament of Baptism–as it is impossible to Cleanse the Original Sin that no longer exists in that person.

When a Catholic sins or if he/she gets to the point of apostasy (which is rejection of the Faith not just committing a sin) he/she is not Living in Grace (in the Spirit) so he/she must Reconcile him/herself to God through the Sacrament of Confession. This is where a person is held to his/her responsibility in Christ: Walk in the Light, as He is the Light.

I’ve said many times, “there are only two real-estates in the Universe”. To walk in sin, is identically to be unbelieving; to believe is to turn from sin. (I am agreeing with what you said, just extending it a bit further…)

The person is never regenerated.

“Was not truly regenerated in the first place”? When James speaks of someone “wandering-away-from-the-faith”, regeneration absolutely has to be part of where he had been…

Yes, again this is another of those vocabulary moments; we do not group everything into a single blow: ‘call on the Lord and you’re saved.’

Rather, Catholic Understanding is that we receive the Holy Spirit at the time of Baptism; that Baptism is the means to becoming a member of Christ’s Mystical Body; that the Holy Spirit continues to measure out Grace throughout our lifetime; that the Walk of Faith is nurtured by the Sacraments and that we are Taught, Guided and Protected by the Holy Spirit in our sojourn in the Faith.

I have no problem with “sacraments being part of faith”; I would only object if someone said “salvation by faith + works + sacraments”. That would bring to my mind verses like Eph2:8 (“not by works”), and Rom11:6 (if by works then grace is not grace)…

The Sacrament of Confirmation is the Sacrament where we profess our Faith (confirm/reconfirm); it is also another specific moment where the Holy Spirit is Given to the Believer–yes, we are fortunate to get second helpings!

Thank you for the descriptions; as always, you and I are pretty close in understanding. We musta read the same Apostles’ writings!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

Question — salvation being an indwelt fellowship with God through Jesus (1Jn1:3, 1Jn5:11-13) — and especially Gal2:20 — can one who “refuses-to-grow”, really have the intimate union that everyone said defined salvation?

No!

See? That is exactly it…

…that is why the Epistles stress the battle that exists within man (Spirit vs. the flesh) and why it is Taught again and again that the Believers cannot turn back to sin,

(…must not…)

…and that even those who are part of the Body (the Church) can, if they are not careful, lose their foothold on Salvation (I figure a little spin on this would be nice).

Sadly, the “feel good” theologies continue to deny the Word of God–

Yes; 2Tim3:1-5 should be frightening to a whole lot more people…

‘don’t worry, all dogs go to heaven!’

You know about the dyslexic Agnostic?
…spend his whole life, wondering if there really WAS a doG?

v11 – this talks to St. John the Baptist Baptism, a Baptism in water. Then John expands into the Messianic Baptism: Holy Spirit and fire.

This is not a fire to remove the chaff from the world; it is not a fire to consume the elements; it is not a fire to scare people into submission. It is a fire of Purification.

v12 Expands on Jesus’ Work… but it is not the same argument/presentation; this is St. Matthew 24: Judgment Day… the chaff (those who refuse to believe and become part of Jesus’ Fold will be gathered into the Lake of Fire.

St. John is ushering the Kingdom of God… he proposes a water Baptism to turn man back to God and he Promises that Jesus, the Messiah, Who is following right behind him, will Baptize in the Holy Spirit and Fire. Then John uses a slight of hands and proposes: a gathering of the Saved and a gathering of those who are not Saved–the latter will end up in the consuming fire that never extinguishes.

When do “fire and water”, mix?

…yeah, not the best proof-reader; and don’t forget I’m fighting time, and heat, and searching through Scriptures and additional resources, and fighting the system that can erase the work or call out on “text limit!”

I’ll pray for your new computer!

I concur. That’s why I enjoy or exchanges so much. Your Love of Christ and the Word brings us to common grounds, in spite of our respective vocabulary.

Paul says in Eph4, “speak the truth in LOVE”. Everyone here shares a common goal; to belong to Jesus by His grace, through our faith. To be filled with His joy and His righteousness and His eternity; and to share Him with a lost and dying world. There is a time to fight (when issues are critical), and a time not to; maturity is perhaps knowing the difference. We do have differences; no two people here (or in the world!) agree on everything. When Jesus comes, we will not. We will be family forever.

Let that be our goal, and let us never lose sight of His assignment.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Correct! That’s why I love Isaiah 1:15-20; God is so layback… ‘come let us talk this out… here’s where you’re wrong, here’s what I am Willing to Do, here’s your responsibility, and here’s where rejection of my Word gets you.’

It is to an intimate relationship that God Calls us!

Us, and every created person.

…I have heard the expression (several times now) that ‘He Who Created you without your consent; will not Save you without your consent…’ God Calls us to an intimate relationship with Him and He is Guided by our freewill: if we Turn to Him, Heaven’s the Limit; if we reject Him… well Heaven has limits!

“Consent” — absolute requirement for love, “love cannot demand its own way” (1Cor13:5)…

Yet, it is always up to us; the choice is always ours!

I wish more would cite verses like Rom1:16, faith-the-start to faith-the-goal. “The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; the righteous shall live by faith.”

…and I follow your understanding; my problem is how you come to the understanding and how you link it… you have a “all at once” economy; I have a portioned-out economy.

I’m thinking you and I agree on “we-have-died-to-sin, but have-become-alive-to-God-through-Jesus” (and are now walking in His righteousenss).

I’d bet a million dollars we agree on that, if I had an extra million…

Correct! Water Baptism is the Baptism which immerse us into Christ’s Body; through water Baptism the Holy Spirit Seals us:

Infer

:
deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements…

By “infer”, I meant discerning something that’s not in the writing.

“But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” 1Cor6:17

There is no water mentioned.

I think that part of what you do not see is what allows me to understand Scriptures the way that I do; you (non-Catholics) also rely on inference… but your only have the Written Tradition; since you do not have both the Oral and the Written Traditions you make the connections as you do; because I have both Traditions I am able to make the connections as I do.

Knowing I risk offending someone (and stating that is not my intent), I perceive “authority of Scripture” as superior to any tradition. In that, we pursue solid exegesis, so that it is as if the Apostles themselves have joined the conversation. When their writings are clear, there is no such thing as “private interpretation” – really, any interpretation at all. “Interpretation” only exists where more than one meaning is possible. Titus admonishes us to “exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict” — if any point of doctrine can be dismissed simply by saying “your-private-interpretation”, then there is no such thing as “sound doctrine” or “refuting anyone”…

So that is our solemn charge; to understand Scripture sufficiently so that we overcome the idea of “private interpretation”, whether or not it compliments or conflicts a given tradition…

We’ve hit another one of those pesky voc… we do hold the same understanding; we understand this Seal not as a superficial and temporary medium–such as one that would be placed on a document or package to keep prying eyes from accessing the information/contents… rather, it is the in the form of “authentication” or “authorization” or “separation.”

It is permanent. It is unrepeatable.

It would seem there are only limited possibilities for the “Seal of the Spirit”.

1. We are sealed with the Spirit, and cannot become unsealed (OSAS #2-3)
2. Those who fall away, did not REALLY have the Spirit in the FIRST place (OSAS “Catch-22”)
3. A truly saved person (who by definition has the Spirit), can turn away from Salvation and discharge Him

I’m not seeing how Eph1:13 “after believing we were sealed with the Spirit” — does not allow that seal to be later broken if a person turns back to unbelief and no longer has the Spirit… http://elouai.com/images/yahoo/a06.gif

Exactly! Witnessing Christ is bringing the “Good News” to all. How good does ‘you’re going to go to hell’ hits anyone?

Jesus even identified that the Son of man did not Come to Judge the world but to Save it… as one of His Definitions on Who He Is: “I AM the Resurrection and the Life!” would surely compel people to keep an open mind about getting to Know Christ!

Amen — “He is love and fulfillment” is a much better message than “you-gonna-be-in-trouble-if-you-don’t”…

 

[Gadgeteer]

…no… I don’t mean “make excuses” or refuse to abide… that’s hollowood’s spirituality; the popular belief is that none will perish or quite a very few… the ‘real bad seeds.’

…there are even those who claim “ignorance” as the means to Salvation–as if Scriptures are saying ‘the less you know the less accountable to God’s Judgment you will be.’

So, no.

Maturity in how we process, understand, adhere to Abiding in Christ, and how we fight temptation, and repent for our sins… there are people who don’t think a thing about smoking cigarettes… they make no connection with the Command not to kill… and they will fight you if you “bad mouth” tobacco products (or whatever else gets checked); they don’t see anything wrong (ditto with drugs, cheating, stealing, lying, cursing, fornication and adultery…); they are “good Christians.”

I have this “radical understanding”, that in all the Scriptures which admonish us to “not walk as heathens, darkened in understanding, excluded from the life of God” (or “don’t crave evil things”, or “don’t be immoral” etcetera), they are actually warning us to “be saved”.

Yes, but a lot who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior seldomly engage in anything that would upset their comfort and sensibilities… have you check out the number of Christians that get divorced?

There are 3 ½ valid reasons for divorce — all “A’s”.
Adultery (unrepentant)
Abuse (from Malachi)
Abandonment (the believer is not bound)

And the half is more opinion, “addiction” – is one who is addicted NOT abandoning his spouse? Yes he is…

Yeah, but to what power?

Depends; “Log” base 10, “Ln” base e (I forget – isn’t “e” something like 2.71828?)

The humor is that adding LOGS, is the same as multiplying.

I don’t think I’m explaining myself right; the “done and done” on our side–where on that very moment of entrance into the Body the person is a “mature” Believer.

…consider that if there’s no maturity because that one incident was “done and done” then the Epistles would not have been needed since they are not address to the uninitiated (non-Believers) but to the Church (can’t recall exactly how many times, but I think that it is one time only–as St. Paul asks that the Epistles be read/shared by all the churches).

Even in the Apostles’ own experience, they committed errors that needed to be corrected.

Yes — but — the kind of immaturity which permits “willful sin” (like fornication, drunkenness, carousing) does not take years to overcome. It takes only a good sermon…

Note that the passage speaks to those who were imprisoned; do you mean to say that the few that were found to be “friends” of God needed to be released and that Jesus, in the Spirit, needed to Preach to them?

There are two verses Universalists think teach “Universalism” — no one knows who Peter was talking about “in prison”.

…well, if God ever needs you to be there last week… the Holy Spirit could “transport” you at a speed faster than light (I think it’s part of Einstein’s time travel theory.

Hah! “You cannot move faster than light” — because it would violate the radical:

T’ = Tº √(1-V²/C²)

Time slows down as one approaches the speed of light; if one could reach the speed-of-light “C”, his time relative to the Universe becomes zero; all eternity passes in an instant. Obviously, if V exceeds C, the radical becomes imaginary, therefore it cannot.

BUT – the Universe is supposedly 93 billion light years wide, but only 13.7 billion years old; obviously things moved faster than light! Per people like Alcubierre, although matter cannot move faster than light, pockets of space-time, can. That physicist proposed a space-drive that “can get you to Alpha Centauri in less than two weeks” (traveling at the speed of light it would take 4.3 years!). "There is no known upper limit for the velocity of space-time; it is thought that at the point of cosmic inflation, minimum speed was 30 million billion times faster than light!"

(…which means it all could have “popped into existence” in an instant!)

Yes. Not presuming to know what God knows; it is arguable that we would meet, perhaps right at the Parousia… I’ll be the one searching Scriptures on-line and by actual Bible!

Excellent for you!

I think, that, if anyone from here passed through my town, I’d be delighted to spring for lunch!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Knowing I risk offending someone (and stating that is not my intent), I perceive “authority of Scripture” as superior to any tradition. In that, we pursue solid exegesis, so that it is as if the Apostles themselves have joined the conversation. When their writings are clear, there is no such thing as “private interpretation” – really, any interpretation at all. “Interpretation” only exists where more than one meaning is possible. Titus admonishes us to “exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict” — if any point of doctrine can be dismissed simply by saying “your-private-interpretation”, then there is no such thing as “sound doctrine” or “refuting anyone”…

So that is our solemn charge; to understand Scripture sufficiently so that we overcome the idea of “private interpretation”, whether or not it compliments or conflicts a given tradition…

Understand, I am not disparaging nor discouraging ANY tradition(s). Only stating a general principle that Scripture can speak with authority that is not overturned by anything external.

 

[jcrichton]

I’ve said many times, “there are only two real-estates in the Universe”. To walk in sin, is identically to be unbelieving; to believe is to turn from sin. (I am agreeing with what you said, just extending it a bit further…)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…actually, not; it is far more grievous to turn from God than to have remained in disbelief:

20 and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in. 21 It would even have been better for him never to have learnt the way of holiness, than to know it and afterwards desert the holy rule that was entrusted to him. 22 What he has done is exactly as the proverb rightly says: The dog goes back to his own vomit*a] and: When the sow has been washed, it wallows in the mud.

(2 St. Peter 2:20-22)

“Was not truly regenerated in the first place”? When James speaks of someone “wandering-away-from-the-faith”, regeneration absolutely has

to be part of where he had been…
…yeah, I missed the “re-” on that one!:

The person is never regenerated.

…it should have read as “The person is never re-regenerated.”

We don’t believe in that thing of the Fold but not really or a Believer but not really.

I have no problem with “sacraments being part of faith”; I would only object if someone said “salvation by faith + works + sacraments”. That would bring to my mind verses like Eph2:8 (“not by works”), and Rom11:6 (if by works then grace is not grace)…

This, again, goes to vocabulary… remember what I’ve been trying to convey about “not everything at once?”

Catholic Understanding hooks in the Sacraments because we tie them to the Grace we Receive from the Holy Spirit. The Sacraments are the means by which we are tied to and operate in Christ. So Catholics have no problem understanding that we are Saved by God’s Gift of Salvation, which is Found in Christ, and that we Receive His Grace through the Enactment of the Holy Spirit upon us, and that as we Respond to God, through the Sacraments, we are engaged in that Faith (Believe in God) + Sacraments (Spiritual Obligations/Vows in God and to God) + Works (Loving God through our neighbor and ourselves).

Thank you for the descriptions; as always, you and I are pretty close in understanding. We musta read the same Apostles’ writings!

I concur! …if you recall, at the beginning of our exchanges I intimated that you were in deed Catholic (you just did not know it, yet).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

(…must not…)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah… kind of bordering on semantics… for the Believer can and does sin… but I’ll give you that one!

Yes; 2Tim3:1-5 should be frightening to a whole lot more people…

…well you have the ones who think that “ignorance” will get them to Heaven–that is, if they do not acknowledge sin/unrighteousness they are in the clear; then there are those who, even thought they heard from Christ’s own mouth (St. Matthew 7:21-23) hold on tight to the “feel good” theology–don’t judge, be charitable, excuse everything, when necessary cite “conscience” and/or “ignorance.”

Yet, there’s no evading it:

1 You may be quite sure that in the last days there are going to be some difficult times. 2 People will be self-centred and grasping; boastful, arrogant and rude; disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious; 3 heartless and unappeasable; they will be slanderers, profligates, savages and enemies of everything that is good; 4 they will be treacherous and reckless and demented by pride, preferring their own pleasure to God. 5 They will keep up the outward appearance of religion but will have rejected the inner power of it. Have nothing to do with people like that.

(2 Timothy 3:1-5)
…were we not warned that God cannot be fooled?:

7 Don’t delude yourself into thinking God can be cheated: where a man sows, there he reaps: 8 if he sows in the field of self-indulgence he will get a harvest of corruption out of it; if he sows in the field of the Spirit he will get from it a harvest of eternal life.

(Galatians 6:7-8)

You know about the dyslexic Agnostic?

…spend his whole life, wondering if there really WAS a doG?
…wasn’t he the guy who wrote: ‘I found the God who bit me on my behind?’

When do “fire and water”, mix?

…well, there’s this:

Today, those lines seem to have blurred and consequences are far and few in between. Type the words ‘tap water fire’ into your favorite search engine and nearly 400 links to videos will appear. Across the United States it’s becoming more common for homeowners to watch fire erupt from their tap as the water is exposed to open flame. This is a by-product of the practice of fracking whereas natural gas is now seeping into resident’s drinking water wells. (bigberkeywaterfilters.com/blog/fracking/why-is-tap-water-catching-on-fire-becoming-more-common

)

…but I don’t think that was the link you were looking “Fore!” (I used the #4 on that one!)

I believe you are looking for the Connection of water Baptism and the Holy Spirit; if I knew how everything worked, I would put God out of His Job (coincidentally, it was once tried and God simply ridiculed him to no end: Job 38:1 thru 39:30); but I’ll offer a narrative:

When a person (adult or child) is Baptized, the element used is water; as the water is poured (or person is submerged/dunked) it is the Holy Spirit that Binds the candidate to Jesus’ Mystical Body–the Faith professed by the candidate (or the parent/s and God-parent/s of the child) as Seals him/her as the new Follower of Christ is ushered into the Faith/Body/Church–the cleansing of that person spirit/soul does not take place because of the pouring or dunking under the water but because of the Fire of the Holy Spirit Purifying the sinner from the sins (Original Sin and personal sin).

I’ll pray for your new computer!

Thank you! …that thought has not occurred to me.

Paul says in Eph4, “speak the truth in LOVE”. Everyone here shares a common goal; to belong to Jesus by His grace, through our faith. To be filled with His joy and His righteousness and His eternity; and to share Him with a lost and dying world. There is a time to fight (when issues are critical), and a time not to; maturity is perhaps knowing the difference. We do have differences; no two people here (or in the world!) agree on everything. When Jesus comes, we will not.

We will be family forever.

Let that be our goal, and let us never lose sight of His assignment.


Correct!

This is why the infighting in Christendom is so unproductive; not only does it keep shattering the Body into more and more splinterings but it revels against Christ’s Command to Love one another and to be one in Him–it also serves to confuse those who are not claiming to Christ’s Fellowship as they use Scriptures to point out the discord in Christendom!

Maran atha!

Angel