W
- Status
B
bene7
Guest
Humm, throughout the Epistles true believers are addressed as those who are “in Christ,” I have yet to see them addressed as being “in Mary.” Do you know what “in Christ” means?
Jesus explains why she did the things she did in Matt. 26:12. It was for His burial, not to be forgiven of her sins. Don’t read into the Scriptures something that is not there. What she was unknowingly preparing His body for is actually the divine ground for forgiving ALL sins: a substitutionary, sacrificial death. “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:9).
Fiat, if God forgives our sins “as” we forgive others we’re all in a heap of trouble. For none of us forgive perfectly or completely and certainly not ultruistically. And if they’re forgiven only through a personal demonstration of mournful tears then the cross itself is made void and Peter and Paul preached a false Gospel.
ACTS 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Fiat, when you read the above verse, what does it say to you?
Blessings,
Bene
S
sandusky
Guest
Again, if you want to pray it, pray it; I prefer it as a model, in which one starts with adoration of the Father, confession of sins, thanksgiving for God’s provision, and supplication from the saints.
The reason I limited it to the N.T. epistles is because those address the church (I clearly stated “believers”), the Gospels do not. The Church does not start until Pentecost, 50 days after the resurrection. The Gospel would, of necessity, be excluded. You can use Acts if you’d like, there again the formula is repent and believe.
In the Greek it is more of a “mold,” the idea being that God reshapes the new believer into a mold by the apostle’s teachings (cf Rom 12:2; 2 Tim 1:13; Titus 2:1; 1 Pet 2:2).
I do not know if that is true or not. It does seem that you believe it to be true.
G
Giovanni
Guest
We are Born Again in Water and Spirit.
Cool, I got a head start being baptized when I was an infant.
Giovanni
Cool, I got a head start being baptized when I was an infant.
Giovanni
B
bene7
Guest
Mickey said:
Repent means to change one’s mind. They should repent (change their minds, based on the gospel message of Christ being preached to them), turn to God (and only when they turn to God, i.e., are saved) can they then do works befitting of their changed, regenerated, minds.
Repentance has to do with one turning from unbelieving to believing, not how one’s sins are forgiven. Like Sandusky already pointed out, “penance” (in respect to the forgiveness of sins) is not a Biblical concept. Such a concept circumvents the cross.
Blessings,
Bene
B
bene7
Guest
Actually Christ explains Himself in John 3:5-6. “That which is born of flesh is flesh (physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” You who are born of the flesh must also be born of the Spirit: “born again.” None of it has anything to do with ritual, water baptism.We are Born Again in Water and Spirit.
Cool, I got a head start being baptized when I was an infant.
Giovanni
Blessings,
Bene
W
wpr
Guest
Kendy,
Bene and Sandusky have seen fit to address you as teachers a few times in your thread. Is is too much for me to ask where you are at on these many issues? Do you reject the Gospels as unfit for our times? I fear I do not have the ability to turn such as them.
I rejoice only in that they are in the hands of a merciful God, even if they scourge such a statement.
I believe I have presented myself to you as a humble servant not possessing all the answers. My sincere desire is for your own peace, although I may have teased you about going to see a Priest and coming back home, I care not if you do. If I were so militant in my desire, I should start with my own Mother and Sister who are Lutheran. In no way do I fear for their salvation. Yet, I do desire Christian unity as the Apostle Paul.
Can you see that I have come together with Dave on the other thread we shared? Can you see that I have nowhere been disingenuous to win an argument? I have been at times contentious in my zeal, I admit, yet also readily admit my faults and like the Apostle Paul, nowhere evasive.
In honesty, I have become quite annoyed with both Bene and Sandusky for what I see as disingenuous evangelizing. They never told me they did not believe the Gospels did not apply to this age yet they both used Scripture from the Gospels to prove their many points. I have read of such beliefs, but never actually conversed with one believing such strange things. I am naive I suppose.
Yet, I’ve read the Church Fathers from St Clement of Rome to St Augustine and I found none who said the Gospels were null. Not one ever instructed the faithful to not pray as the Lord taught us. All revered the Gospels and protected them even with their blood. This is witness enough for me.
As a novice Catholic apologist, I have learned much on these threads. Yet I may retire for a bit, wounded by this disingenuous behaviour and not possessing the ability to refute it without taking too much time from my 4 children. However, I assure you I am not killed. I will come out on the other side the worst nightmare for such as Bene and Sandusky and the devil. Strengthened by my brothers and sisters. I intend to win souls for Christ be it His will.
My resolve is only for Christ. My call to evangelization was not born in these threads, but by the call of his servants Pope John Paul II, whom I once mocked, Cardinal George, my own Pastor, my wife, my family, and my good friend Stan Z all who serve only the Lord Jesus Christ. Glory to Him forever!
Bene and Sandusky have seen fit to address you as teachers a few times in your thread. Is is too much for me to ask where you are at on these many issues? Do you reject the Gospels as unfit for our times? I fear I do not have the ability to turn such as them.
I rejoice only in that they are in the hands of a merciful God, even if they scourge such a statement.
I believe I have presented myself to you as a humble servant not possessing all the answers. My sincere desire is for your own peace, although I may have teased you about going to see a Priest and coming back home, I care not if you do. If I were so militant in my desire, I should start with my own Mother and Sister who are Lutheran. In no way do I fear for their salvation. Yet, I do desire Christian unity as the Apostle Paul.
Can you see that I have come together with Dave on the other thread we shared? Can you see that I have nowhere been disingenuous to win an argument? I have been at times contentious in my zeal, I admit, yet also readily admit my faults and like the Apostle Paul, nowhere evasive.
In honesty, I have become quite annoyed with both Bene and Sandusky for what I see as disingenuous evangelizing. They never told me they did not believe the Gospels did not apply to this age yet they both used Scripture from the Gospels to prove their many points. I have read of such beliefs, but never actually conversed with one believing such strange things. I am naive I suppose.
Yet, I’ve read the Church Fathers from St Clement of Rome to St Augustine and I found none who said the Gospels were null. Not one ever instructed the faithful to not pray as the Lord taught us. All revered the Gospels and protected them even with their blood. This is witness enough for me.
As a novice Catholic apologist, I have learned much on these threads. Yet I may retire for a bit, wounded by this disingenuous behaviour and not possessing the ability to refute it without taking too much time from my 4 children. However, I assure you I am not killed. I will come out on the other side the worst nightmare for such as Bene and Sandusky and the devil. Strengthened by my brothers and sisters. I intend to win souls for Christ be it His will.
My resolve is only for Christ. My call to evangelization was not born in these threads, but by the call of his servants Pope John Paul II, whom I once mocked, Cardinal George, my own Pastor, my wife, my family, and my good friend Stan Z all who serve only the Lord Jesus Christ. Glory to Him forever!
B
bene7
Guest
wpr said:
It is erroneous, indeed, to build doctrine on obscure verses. Don’t shout where the Scriptures whisper.
But…* "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He* (Jesus Christ) who was born of God KEEPS him and the evil one DOES NOT TOUCH HIM." 1 John 5:18
This one verse blows your whole theory out of the water.
Blessings,
Bene
B
bene7
Guest
Never said the Gospels were “unfit” for our times, wpr. Don’t slander, buddy.
Blessings,
Bene
W
wpr
Guest
Bene,
Please, Pope Bene, do tell me where the Holy Spirit shouted and where he whispered.
Where does it tell me in scripture, you ignoramous, that I am to take 1 John 5 to a lesser degree than John 5:18 or any other Epistle? Where does Scripture tell me Paul shouts, but Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Peter whisper?
The verse in 1 John 5:16~17 is not unclear. Some sin is deadly, while other sin is not. I’d like to know the Scriptural answer.
If you have no reply, please just admit it is lost theology, never to be recovered due to the ignoramous John who did not write it down for you to read 2000 years later. It is certainly beyond the possibility that such knowlege was passed to a confidant of Johns orally. Right?
I’d also like you to tell me the “pattern of teaching” to which Paul refers? I’d like it to be thoroughly foot noted with Scriptural proof.
I’d also like to point out to you your forensic imputation theology thus far is decided on whether Abraham was imputed in Gn 15:6, which your parsed so nicely for me earlier and is so easily refuted by Paul himself, not to mention Hebrews and James. The respected Charlie remains as well.
Your problem Bene, is that while I am not your match in biblical banter, I exceed you in the ability to keep an argument straight.
My eye remains on the cross and I seek only to serve our Lord Jesus Christ.
K
Kendy
Guest
Hi
,I think the gospels are very applicable to us today, including the Lord’s prayer. I was equally suprised by the claim that the gospels are somehow less authoritative than the epistles because they were revealed before pentecost. But I am not sure that Bene has been as deceptive as you imagine
. I think he’s wrong, but his intentions are probably good.I also disagreed with them on last week’ s argument about covenants, and I think faith is more than a verbal assent. I do not think that Bene has clarified how “receiving” Christ is different than obeying Him and if they are indeed different, then what are the practical implications of that.
I have tried to ask questions more than argue because I think we can probably all learn through this method although it often results in someone trying to teach me something, which is fine.
Anywho, I am happy to inform you that I have decided to return to the RCC (You can check out the Ok, You win thread for more details). I was reluctant at first, but I couldn’t ignore so many essential truths, and I credit much of that to the dialogues I had here. One of the things that really disturbed me was how often I disagreed with my fellow protestants, and how often they disagreed with each other. Occasionally, I would try to find out what my own denomination’s position was on the issue, but I would often discover that the vineyard doesn’t have a position. I really love my vineyard church, but I guess, having only been around for about 30 years, they hadn’t developed a full theology, and the more I thought about it, it seemed silly to try to reconstruct theology when people have been thinking about these issues for 2000 years
.My pastor was really nonchalant about the theological implications of my reverting to catholicism. Mostly, he wanted to make sure that I found a good community in a charismatic parish, but he didn’t really want to discuss doctrine, which was disappointing.
Lastly, it doesn’t seem like much ground is being covered in this dialogue. Lots of talking, but no one is budging. I really wanted to talk about justification and sanctification, which I think are different things, but I am willing to talk about that, but nobody cared
. (j/k).Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Bene,
Can you please clarify what you meant because that was also what I gathered from your post about the Lord’s prayer. If you don’t believe that, please explain what you meant.
Kendy
W
wpr
Guest
Bene,
You evade.
My point stands. You and Sandusky do not believe the Lord’s Prayer should be prayed in these times. Why? So you can avoid “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.” Far too Catholic I guess.
Therefore, I rightfully conclude you are willing to toss a part of a written God-breathed Gospel as inappropriate. How shall I ever know what other Scripture you may relegate to no meaning? You cannot be trusted to speak clearly. Paul warns us of such as you.
You already told me 1 John 5:16~17 whispers while other verses shout. On what basis do you claim to know which verrses are to be tossed, which shout, and which whisper? By your own rules I expect a biblical reply. I care not for your opinion.
F
Fiat
Guest
Bene:
You’re looking at the wrong passage. Read Luke 7:36-50.
When I was a youth, my protestant ministers would tell us a story about Satan getting together with his demons. They tried to come up with a plan that would prevent people from turning to Christ, so they decided the best way to do this is to let mankind think they have one extra day to repent. This way, man will keep putting repentance off and eventually they’ll die and come into the arms of Satan.
It appears Satan has found another way to minimize the message of Christ: tell people the gospels were only relevant for a certain time. Well done, Bene.
In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
S
sandusky
Guest
You are blowing what Bene said way out of proportion.
It is clear that the only thing any of you are able to do at this point is attack Bene, and me, separately and together.
S
sandusky
Guest
For one who claims to be able to follow an argument, you sure have gotten lost on this one.
You have come to an erroneous conclusion concerning the things Bene has said, and concerning the things that I have said.
You exaggerate and misrepresent what has been said.
S
sandusky
Guest
You need to re-read what was said Kendy, there is nothing about the Gospels being less authoritative; you missed the point.I think the gospels are very applicable to us today, including the Lord’s prayer. I was equally suprised by the claim that the gospels are somehow less authoritative than the epistles because they were revealed before pentecost. But I am not sure that Bene has been as deceptive as you imagine
M
Mickey
Guest
Seems like there is some work to do before you actually believe.
See above.
Then Peter said to them, "repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
bene7 said:
Poppycock! If you understood the concept of penance correctly, you would understand otherwise.
M
Mickey
Guest
You confuse attack with correction.
F
Fiat
Guest
Well, then, Sandusky, hopefully he’ll take advantage of clarifying himself. Otherwise, may God have mercy on his soul.
In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
- Status