Reincarnation and karma!?

[seagal]

That makes no sense unless you think they believed Jesus appeared out of nowhere as a fully grown man.

If they believed that Jesus was born as a baby in the normal manner and grew to adulthood in the normal manner, that can only mean they believed in reincarnation.

I really doubt if you can find any scriptural evidence that they believed Jesus appeared out of nowhere as a fully grown man.

Luke 9:18-21
18Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”
19They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”

Elijah was taken up into heaven on a chariot. As far as they knew, he could have come back again the same way. His return was prophesized and they were waiting for it. Again, as far as they knew any of the prophets could have come back fully grown. After all, their scriptures are sprinkled with examples of “men” (angels) appearing out of nowhere. Jesus was travelling all over the countryside so not everyone he encountered would have known him or his family.

 

[twinc]

Luke 9:18-21
18Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”
19They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”

Elijah was taken up into heaven on a chariot. As far as they knew, he could have come back again the same way. His return was prophesized and they were waiting for it. Again, as far as they knew any of the prophets could have come back fully grown. After all, their scriptures are sprinkled with examples of “men” (angels) appearing out of nowhere. Jesus was travelling all over the countryside so not everyone he encountered would have known him or his family.

thank you very much you have proved that they did in fact believe or accept the possibility of reincarnation - twinc

 

[seagal]

Not at all, my point was that they thought possibly Jesus was one of the prophets come back from the dead, but not reborn. That’s 2 entirely different things.

 

[donsnow]

On the other other hand, the resurrected body will not be identical to the body you have now, so you could speak of the resurrected body as a special type of reincarnation body. (“Reincarnation” simply means “re-em-body-ment”.)

Hi, Siddartha -

Well, in regards to your ending paragraph, Jesus is my example. What happened in his resurrection will happen in my resurrection. After his resurrection, he appeared to the Apostles, and showed Thomas the scars on his hands and in his side. Ie, Jesus’ resurrected body was the same as went into the grave, when he rose from the dead. Consequetly, I believe that resurrection and reincarnation are different.

Furthermore, I have read reports of a family in India, where their little boy was the reincarnation of his uncle. The child knew things about his family that only his uncle had known. So, in that reincarnation, the uncle took the child’s body. That is not the resurrection.

I would not allow anyone to be reincarnated in me.

In closing, I think the Jews never heard of Karma, and developed their own thoughts of reincarnation. In line with that, then, God permits only a reincarnation which serves Him and His kingdom, the salvation of mankind. Because Jesus said, “If only you believed, John was Elija.”, or words to that effect.

 

[anon5216]

… Furthermore, I have read reports of a family in India, where their little boy was the reincarnation of his uncle. The child knew things about his family that only his uncle had known.
So, in that reincarnation, the uncle took the child’s body. … I would not allow anyone to be reincarnated in me.

In closing, I think the Jews never heard of Karma, and developed their own thoughts of reincarnation. In line with that, then, God permits only a reincarnation which serves Him and His kingdom, the salvation of mankind. Because Jesus said, “If only you believed, John was Elija.”, or words to that effect.

Why do you say “the uncle took the child’s body”?

The soul that was embodied in the uncle later was embodied in a new physical form.
He didn’t steal that new body from another soul.

There’s also a recent similar account from the U.S. of a very young child remembering details from the life of a pilot who died in WWII.
It took some research on the parent’s part to find the identity of the pilot - and even found living people who knew him, having served in the military with him,
and who confirmed details the child would have no way of knowing from any other source.
soulsurvivor-book.com/

You seem to confuse reincarnation with something like possession.
Reincarnation and resurrection are a thousand times more closely related, as both deal with multiple outer manifestations of a single soul.

I’ve always felt that reincarnation and purgatory are very compatible concepts - as repeated human incarnations until getting it right / getting purified, can serve the same purpose as purgatory.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

Though some Jews today do believe in reincarnation, this belief is rather late in Judaism, it didn’t really appear til about the late 1st century and 2nd maybe later. Reincarnation is not mentioned in the Talmud, explicitly at least, You don’t really see significant mention of reincarnation til later in the 1st millennium AD and in the Zohar, reincarnation is part of Kabalah. But some early Kaballists explicitly denied reincarnation, but the Jewish response to this is that they were simply keeping it secret (by lying?). Reincarnation is a twisting of the reincarnation. Reincarnation during Jesus’ time was more of a pagan believe, also called “transmigration of the soul” and it was a belief of Pythagoras. The early Christians rejected reincarnation. The Jews of Jesus time did not have everything theologically right, there may have been a small belief in it, since there have been hybrid sects of Judaism since the Israelites entered Canaan that mixed with paganism. And since Paganism often holds to reincarnation its possible it became incorporated in parts of more mainstream Judaism. Not to mention Hinduism and Buddhism were known religions by some Church Fathers. I have seen references by rabbis accusing other Jews of having pagan practices, like the usage of “amulets” and other things.

 

[grace_singh]

so being so learned answer the simple question why was John the beloved disciple,what did he specially do or so to make him beloved - when all is said and done Lazarus was beloved by Jesus as also his sisters Martha and Mary - lest we forget - twinc

because John says as much :

Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”)…This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. (John 21:20,24)

here we have the narrator of John’s Gospel, named for John, refering to the beloved disciple and identifying himself as that disciple within the text itself.

 

[mykesobe]

That is not true!
Jesus is God incarnate and not reincarnated.

I’m sorry for my horrible choice of words! I was never good with “(re)incarnate”! Of course I meant to say that which you corrected me for.

 

[donsnow]

Why do you say “the uncle took the child’s body”?

The soul that was embodied in the uncle later was embodied in a new physical form.
He didn’t steal that new body from another soul.

There’s also a recent similar account from the U.S. of a very young child remembering details from the life of a pilot who died in WWII.
It took some research on the parent’s part to find the identity of the pilot - and even found living people who knew him, having served in the military with him,
and who confirmed details the child would have no way of knowing from any other source.
soulsurvivor-book.com/

You seem to confuse reincarnation with something like possession.
Reincarnation and resurrection are a thousand times more closely related, as both deal with multiple outer manifestations of a single soul.

I’ve always felt that reincarnation and purgatory are very compatible concepts - as repeated human incarnations until getting it right / getting purified, can serve the same purpose as purgatory.

Hi, anon5216 -

I wrote that the uncle took the boy’s body, because I presumed the boy had a soul. Did the child’s personality and the uncle’s personality coexist in the boy’s body? If so, that is possession.

There’s no confusion in my mind. Reincarnation into a living soul’s body is possession, pure and simple.

Now, are you saying that the vessel for reincarnation has only the knowledge of the one reincarnated? Or, is the personality of the one reincarnated made present in the vessel?

I firmly see it, with no confusion whatsoever, as possession when the soul of the dead speaks through a living soul’s body, or merges with that soul’s body.

With the exception, of course, of those of us who are members of the mystical Body of Christ. That’s a completely different life-state.

 

[anon5216]

Hi, anon5216 -

I wrote that the uncle took the boy’s body, because I presumed the boy had a soul. Did the child’s personality and the uncle’s personality coexist in the boy’s body? If so, that is possession.

There’s no confusion in my mind. Reincarnation into a living soul’s body is possession, pure and simple.

Now, are you saying that the vessel for reincarnation has only the knowledge of the one reincarnated? Or, is the personality of the one reincarnated made present in the vessel?

I firmly see it, with no confusion whatsoever, as possession when the soul of the dead speaks through a living soul’s body, or merges with that soul’s body.

With the exception, of course, of those of us who are members of the mystical Body of Christ. That’s a completely different life-state.

Now you seem to confuse personality with soul. These are not synonyms.
Reincarnation, by definition, is a single soul being embodied physically more than once.
It is not one soul barging in on another soul’s physical form and taking over or merging (or even ‘sharing’) - pure and simple.

I can understand that the CC requires you to believe that God creates a new soul at the moment of conception, and that transmigration of the soul contradicts that belief.
So you can say you don’t believe that reincarnation is true, but you still can’t redefine it.

There is of course also the problem of how soul is defined.
There is an aspect of our being that is immortal and actually has the capacity to experience God directly.

This is not our growing/changing/eventually decaying body, not our mind with ever changing identification with various thoughts/beliefs/etc., not our emotions that change much more readily than our accepted thoughts.
And not even the animating life force - which the Church sometimes seems to define as the soul.

As long as we identify ourselves with the body, the emotions, the mind, or the animating life force, we are blind to our true selves.
The question of reincarnation can never be resolved by people who are blind to their own true selves.

Within the Catholic tradition, the Dominican theologian Meister Ekhart is a good person to research regarding the quest to know one’s true self.
Pope John Paul II seemed to appreciate him.

 

[donsnow]

Now you seem to confuse personality with soul. These are not synonyms.
Reincarnation, by definition, is a single soul being embodied physically more than once.
It is not one soul barging in on another soul’s physical form and taking over or merging (or even ‘sharing’) - pure and simple.

I can understand that the CC requires you to believe that God creates a new soul at the moment of conception, and that transmigration of the soul contradicts that belief.
So you can say you don’t believe that reincarnation is true, but you still can’t redefine it.

There is of course also the problem of how soul is defined.
There is an aspect of our being that is immortal and actually has the capacity to experience God directly.

This is not our growing/changing/eventually decaying body, not our mind with ever changing identification with various thoughts/beliefs/etc., not our emotions that change much more readily than our accepted thoughts.
And not even the animating life force - which the Church sometimes seems to define as the soul.

As long as we identify ourselves with the body, the emotions, the mind, or the animating life force, we are blind to our true selves.
The question of reincarnation can never be resolved by people who are blind to their own true selves.

Within the Catholic tradition, the Dominican theologian Meister Ekhart is a good person to research regarding the quest to know one’s true self.
Pope John Paul II seemed to appreciate him.

Hi, anon5216 -

Your statement notwithstanding that reincarnation of one person into another person’s body is not possession, doesn’t change there being two personalities in one person’s body, as a result of reincarnation. Now, that’s either a psychiatric disorder, or possession, your choice.

I’m satisfied I’ve met my true self several times, and stay in touch with him.

The question of reincarnation answers to several different opinions. You’re entitled to yours and I’m entitled to mine.

 

[anon5216]

Hi, anon5216 -

Your statement notwithstanding that reincarnation of one person into another person’s body is not possession, doesn’t change there being two personalities in one person’s body, as a result of reincarnation. Now, that’s either a psychiatric disorder, or possession, your choice.

I’m satisfied I’ve met my true self several times, and stay in touch with him.

The question of reincarnation answers to several different opinions. You’re entitled to yours and I’m entitled to mine.

Hi donsnow,

As far as simply not believing that there is such a thing as reincarnation - that’s completely reasonable.
If a person doesn’t have personal awareness of their own past physical sojourns, or at least personally has interacted with someone who has - it’s only a theory or a belief anyway.

Regarding defining it:
A memory of a previous ‘personality’ is not two personalities in one body - so having such memories is neither a psychiatric disorder nor possession.

Even ordinarily, people’s personality goes through changes throughout life - as a result of intense experiences (positive or negative), or just via general mental/emotional/spiritual growth.
If you vividly remember your life experiences from 15 years ago when your personality may have been very different from the present, it doesn’t change who you are now - neither does it mean you are possessed by your younger personality or have some kind of psychiatric disorder.

Regarding meeting your true self.
Why do you relate to it as if it was separate from you?
Meeting ‘him’ and staying in touch as if ‘he’ were a different entity from ‘you’ entirely?

 

[donsnow]

Hi donsnow,

As far as simply not believing that there is such a thing as reincarnation - that’s completely reasonable.
If a person doesn’t have personal awareness of their own past physical sojourns, or at least personally has interacted with someone who has - it’s only a theory or a belief anyway.

Regarding defining it:
A memory of a previous ‘personality’ is not two personalities in one body - so having such memories is neither a psychiatric disorder nor possession.

Even ordinarily, people’s personality goes through changes throughout life - as a result of intense experiences (positive or negative), or just via general mental/emotional/spiritual growth.
If you vividly remember your life experiences from 15 years ago when your personality may have been very different from the present, it doesn’t change who you are now - neither does it mean you are possessed by your younger personality or have some kind of psychiatric disorder.

Regarding meeting your true self.
Why do you relate to it as if it was separate from you?
Meeting ‘him’ and staying in touch as if ‘he’ were a different entity from ‘you’ entirely?

Hi, anon5216 -

I think there’s something that people call reincarnation. Now, you say it’s having memories of a previous life. Well, that definition I can accept, and not see any possession or second personality. Just memories. So, I’ll agree to that. (Of course, I have memories of different lifes during my 66 years: childhood, public schoo, USMC and USNR, and too many different jobs and residences, then more stability in the recent quarter century. My life as a cabdriver, my life as a security guard, my life in food service, all intertwined to compose my total life on this earth in this body.)

Speaking of reincarnation memories, how come we never hear about a reincarnated dish washer, or rickshaw puller, or slave? It seems all the Euro American reincarnations or of a prince or princess or a valiant knight and such.

Ummm, in touch with myself. I suffer from and am receiving treatment for PTSD from some trauma I don’t really want to discuss publically. I will say, by the grace of God I stayed stateside during my military tours. So, by His grace I am spared combat PTSD.

 

[rtved]

Speaking of reincarnation memories, how come we never hear about a reincarnated dish washer, or rickshaw puller, or slave? .

The slave may not want to recall his miserable existence .

 

[rtved]

The idea that a man might be punished for the sins of a parent or for his own (later) ones is not necessarily ‘karma’. The scribes never insinuated that this man was being punished for sins commited in a prior life, but rather that perhaps his father or mother had committed sin, or that the man himself was simply particularly evil from birth and was bound to sin.

Didn’t yahweh promise in the bible that he will punish future generations?.

 

[Greg57]

were Jesus and his apostles and disciples as jews familiar with the doctrine of reincarnation.Notice the reply here and elsewhere "Who do men say I am - the reply was ? - any comments - twinc

Even if the apostles and disciples were familiar with reincarnation, it would have been rejected because it is irrelevent. And even if the idea were true, Christ showed us that it is unnecessary.