Relationship in the gutter.

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*How do we know that the girl in question will agree to wanting to stop having sex? We are placing a lot of blame on the OP. I do think (again) that you had a major hand in her ‘‘losing’’ her faith, but not without her permission.

Some paint you here as a puppeteer, and your gf is a puppet. I don’t see it that way at all.

I am a mother, and if my daughter were to leave the faith, I’d blame her, not the atheist she was dating. I’d blame me maybe for not teaching her how to defend her faith better. But, I’m not sure I’d blame the boyfriend all that much. I’d be angry with him…but I’d blame my daughter for leaving the faith. We have those talks now, as a matter of fact. I told my kids last night, you will meet all kinds of people in your life, who will argue against the faith, you need to be vigilant and ready. Your gf wasn’t vigilant and ready…she succombed to the pressure…and while you might have put a little pressure on her to see things your way, I still see it as her choice.

SHE chooses birth control. SHE chooses to sleep with the OP. She chose to walk away from her faith.

I guess I’m just taken aback by some of the posts that imply he can whisk around a magic wand and just…change her back! As if she is just a puppet, with no mind of her own. I just see this whole thing differently.
 
*This is a side bar, but when kids go off to live on campus at college…they will encounter all kinds of people…those who have no religion, to those who follow every kind of religion under the sun. It’s OUR JOBS as parents to make sure they are ready to defend the faith. Should they ever become friends with or date atheists, or non Catholics (which it most definitely can happen, it happened to me)…they need to be strong in their faith…firm foundation, that no one can rock. THEY NEED TO BE PREPARED TO WALK AWAY FROM SOMEONE WHO DOESN’T ACCEPT THEM BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH.

These are things we need to teach our kids before they enter the ‘‘real’’ world on their own. I’m convinced your gf Persuader was not** rock solid **in her faith, because if she was, she wouldn’t have left it for you or anyone. That is my firm belief. Now, again…I do believe you had a hand in some of this, absolutely. You’re not an innocent bystander. If you were Catholic, I am not convinced we’d be having this conversation with you…But, that is not enough, your background, to make someone want to leave the faith.
 
Persuader said:
Look, making sacrifices is not a problem. If I was sure it is was she needs, I would have made that commitment already. As I said earlier, I respect her boundaries, and we did not have sex for the first 4 months of our relationship. She told me she was ready, I did not force her. I said I was fine with not having sex, althought I made it clear I wanted her.

I will pick that book up. Thanks for the tip.

Sorry about your experiences. I still have hope I can help fix this situation. I will not give up.
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I know exactly what you are saying. Been there, done that. She told me she was ready, too. I helped her get that way. You will catch some grief from some here, but if I hadn’t been in your shoes, well, … I might not understand, either.

I suspect this forum is your best source for help short of going to the local parish or Newman center priest.

What doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger. I hope this story has a happy ending.

Sexual addiction is a strong couple of words. It may not apply, per se. However, I learned a lot from “The Drug of the New Millennium” about my reaction to sex. It’s a book about biology, not theology. So you might find it interesting. It’s really a book about porn and addiction, but you don’t have to have a “problem” to read it and understand the biological impact of sex or porn on a person and, eventually, why all major religions still believe sex should be reserved for marriage.

It is impossible to restore the virginity… but it is not impossible to restore chastity. “Real Love” will explain this well, I think.
 
I agree with you Whatevergirl.

However we are not having a discussion with her but with her bf. He came here wanting to know what we think and what we advise. I think everyone has been straightforward with that. He can also change his behavior and he could also help her rethink her recent abandonment of her faith if he were to sincerely respect her family’s beliefs and morals.

He said quite clearly that he did not agree with her morals earlier in their relationship when they were in agreement with the church. He also set about clearly to change that.

He obviously does have an influence over her, she ultimately has free will but to change someone’s will you have to work through their emotions usually. She was clearly emotionally vulnerable.

Even if she wants to have sex if he refused she won’t be having sex. If he explained why he had chosen such a “radical” route, because of respect and love for her and her family that could have an effect.

If this was your daughter’s boyfriend would you absolve him from any responsibility for his behavior? I’m sure he could still have a positive effect if he so desired.
 
Kindness said:
I agree with you Whatevergirl.

However we are not having a discussion with her but with her bf. He came here wanting to know what we think and what we advise. I think everyone has been straightforward with that. He can also change his behavior and he could also help her rethink her recent abandonment of her faith if he were to sincerely respect her family’s beliefs and morals.

He said quite clearly that he did not agree with her morals earlier in their relationship when they were in agreement with the church. He also set about clearly to change that.

He obviously does have an influence over her, she ultimately has free will but to change someone’s will you have to work through their emotions usually. She was clearly emotionally vulnerable.

Even if she wants to have sex if he refused she won’t be having sex. If he explained why he had chosen such a “radical” route, because of respect and love for her and her family that could have an effect.

If this was your daughter’s boyfriend would you absolve him from any responsibility for his behavior? I’m sure he could still have a positive effect if he so desired.
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*No, I wouldn’t ‘‘absolve’’ him, I probably would invite him over…and try to discuss things with him. Atheist or not, I would be unhappy that my daughter, after numerous talks, would choose to sleep with a man she’s not married to. That alone, would upset me greatly.

I think that as she matures, she probably won’t be as easily influenced. At 19, I was quite naive and glassy-eyed too over every guy who told me I was awesome. I think there is some of that going on too. Age has its advantages, and when she matures, hopefully, she will not be so easily influenced. But, young love can be quite overpowering…I also think she is experiencing her own freedom…her own decision making. For better or for worse, we have to make mistakes sometimes to grow. I am hoping they both grow from this…

And Persuader…you may become Catholic, at the end of the day. 😃 Wouldn’t that be a beautiful ending to this? *
 
Aww how cute! I’m the same age as your girlfriend! Oh and my child’s father is the same age as you!

…

But alas, my child’s father is no longer in the picture. Why? Because he couldn’t love me more than he loved himself. He couldn’t love his own child more than he loved himself. That’s what it takes, sacrifice. He wasn’t willing to do it.

Who do you think loses the most in this situation? Is it my ex, is it me?

No. My son, who had absolutely NOTHING to do with the sinful behavior.

Everytime you have sex, children are a possible outcome. Think about it.
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The Devil is alive I can hear him breathing.

The Devil saw her weakness. For some reason the girlfriend wasn't grounded well in her faith. 

The Devil wanted to mess up another soul so he found Persuader to do so.

Persuader, how unfortunate it is that you do not believe in the Devil. He totally used you to mess up your girlfriend's life. Are you going to continue to let him do that?
 
Whew! I think I finally read through all 16 pages.

Persuader–

I commend you for coming on to a Catholic forum where you will be severely chastized to ask for advice. I commend you for at least trying to talk to her mother. I commend you for wanting your girlfriend to feel better (if no partly because she’s not much fun anymore).

That being said…
Many people have given some good advice. They’ve also tried to paint a picture, which you seem to dismiss with comments like “you underestimate our/her intelligence”. Very intelligent people have done very stupid/unhealthy things.

The fact is, you both felt intensely in the beginning. That developed into a point where she decided she was ok to have sex, not suprising in the world we live in (If she’s like me, rational would include 1. but I love him 2. it’s unrealistic to wait 3. God will love me anyway). Her first sexual experience with someone she felt strongly for resulted in BONDING. This is science–oxytocin does it’s job.

No what? Maybe she thinks, I love his person and he doesn’t believe in God. My family doesn’t approve of the man I love with all my heart. I believe in God but I’m making up my own rules about morality and deep down I know it’s wrong. My extracurricular activites center around faith, which reminds me I’m doing things contradictory to my faith.

It develops over time but leads to a dilemma that must be faced…either God or you. She chose you, which makes sense since she is so bonded to you. Now, she must push away God (she knows she can’t have the way of life she’s living and God), her family, and her activities.

Lots of loss=depression. Who wouldn’t be? And whose left? You. You’re it. You become everything to her. Are you ready for that much responsibility?

As for sex, it’s the only way she has to anesthetize herself. Heck yes she will be upset if you suggest cutting off sex. It’s her one relief from despair.

I pray I’m wrong. Experience tells me otherwise.

You are both in my prayers.
Teri

P.S. Try this. God, if you’re real, please help my girlfriend.
 
whatevergirl said:
SHE chooses birth control. SHE chooses to sleep with the OP. She chose to walk away from her faith.

I guess I’m just taken aback by some of the posts that imply he can whisk around a magic wand and just…change her back! As if she is just a puppet, with no mind of her own. I just see this whole thing differently.
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Hey, good sex is hard to give up! Especially if it’s confused with love. It’s doubtful either one wants to stop. That’s not the question.

That’s why I suggested the book “Real Love.” It may help her understand what she is now missing and how to find her way back.

No. He didn’t rape her. So she willingly gave what she did. Our current culture did the softening up. Her girlfriends may have helped, too. The OP just found the opportunity. Reminds me of a Billy Joel song. Oh. I understand this too well… 😊

The situation is what it is. What they did can’t be undone. But the situation is far from hopeless. The OP came here for advice. Some is good, some is not. Some is just spot-on. But if it’s help in understanding the girl’s faith he needs, I’ll try my best, too. We can only “speak” to her through him.

The guy doesn’t understand our faith. He might be unable to. But until she finds someone else to help her, he’s all she has and I have to believe that he’s sincere in his desire to help her. And, as strange as it seems, I think God sent him here. (no, persuader, you don’t need to agree.)
 
newbetx said:
Hey, good sex is hard to give up! Especially if it’s confused with love. It’s doubtful either one wants to stop. That’s not the question.

That’s why I suggested the book “Real Love.” It may help her understand what she is now missing and how to find her way back.

No. He didn’t rape her. So she willingly gave what she did. Our current culture did the softening up. Her girlfriends may have helped, too. The OP just found the opportunity. Reminds me of a Billy Joel song. Oh. I understand this too well… 😊

The situation is what it is. What they did can’t be undone. But the situation is far from hopeless. The OP came here for advice. Some is good, some is not. Some is just spot-on. But if it’s help in understanding the girl’s faith he needs, I’ll try my best, too. We can only “speak” to her through him.

The guy doesn’t understand our faith. He might be unable to. But until she finds someone else to help her, he’s all she has and I have to believe that he’s sincere in his desire to help her. And, as strange as it seems, I think God sent him here. (no, persuader, you don’t need to agree.)
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I’m aware of what the issues are. *
 
I think it would be VERY hard for your girlfriend to truly come back to God and faith in God if she thinks having sex before marriage is okay and doesn’t give it up. It’s really a choice between sin and God here…
 
Kindness said:
Even if she wants to have sex if he refused she won’t be having sex.
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If she is as addicted to sex as many posters have said, it is more likely that she would just seek sex elsewhere, possibly with multiple random partners. It isn’t hard for a girl who wants sex for her to get it, even in Scandinavia.
 
Persuader said:
I have taken some steps today, but it didn’t go as well as I hoped… 😦

I couldn’ sleep very well last night, as I have been thinking of what actions to take. I talked to my gf earlier today, and confronted her about some of the things we have talked about. She told me the same things she have said already. That she has lost her faith, and that she doesn’t feel the presence of God anymore. She also told me that she doesn’t believe God exist, that her former feelings might have been some form of self-deception.
  • God took off her training wheels by withdrawing his presence within the context of her being fully aware of it, he does this to all of us to see how we will walk without his constant reasurance, just as the parent pulls off the training wheels and let’s the child ride their bike on their own without their hands holding them up. The child learns a new freedom, and demonstrates what they have learned in the process and applies it. Too often people talk to talk, but when the chips are down, do not walk the walk. At the end of the duration of this he returns and the individuals faith and resolve is increased, that or the person is humbled because they failed miserably, making them more pliable vessels for him to work with and get them to grow. Either way, it’s a win win situation even if it seems miserable at the time, even if you are forced to face yourself and be honest with yourself along your faith, too often our pride gets in the way and it requires times like this to purge it.
It is clearly painful for her to talk about, I can see that she becomes uncomfortable when we speak about this. She did confess that she had been reading atheistic literature, and also Nietzsche. Altough Nietzsche himself wasn’t a nihilist, I am concerned about her attitude, I’m concerned she might be sympathizing with nihilism.
  • Get her to read some literature along the martyrs, she will take note to the horrendous trials they faced for their faith, if these people were willing to take it that far, surely there is something more to it then what she has faced.
We talked a bit more about this before I told her that I really wanted her to see a psychiatrist, and that I really think she should work on her relationship with her family and friends. She said that she was fine with her friends. She is very easy to love, and most of them are not as religious as she used to be. So I believe her on that. I don’t think she is catching that much heat from them. I know that a few of them doesn’t like me though (one of them has clearly expressed interest in me, and didn’t appreciate the rejection), so I am a bit worried they might be trying to badmouth me to her.
  • You have to take into account, you are joining not only her, you are also joining her family, they love her so are going to be naturally suspicious in regards to outsiders, and quite frankly, to be hit upon shows at least one of them has some morality problems, don’t take it personally.
She said that her family was being unreasonable, and that they had hurt her feelings. I think this issue with her family might be a bigger factor in her mood than she is letting on, and that she should try harder to patch things up. I said as much, and she got angry with me. She said that she had talked to them, but that they didn’t want to hear it. They told her to leave me, and come back to the faith, but she refused. I really think they are at a stalemate at this point.
  • and ultimately it’s her decision to make, not yours, not theirs. Still, there is no reason she should choose either you or her faith.
She doesn’t believe she is depressed. She says that the place in her heart where God used to be is empty, and that it is just difficult to deal with. Then she said she was trying to fill it with her love for me. That really hit me, and I couldn’ help myself. So we had sex. Afterwards, I asked if she would see a psychiastrist at least. If she didn’t want to see her family or talk to a priest, do that at least. She said she would do it if her heart didn’t mend. I asked for a time limit, and she said she would think about it. After that I left her, and she went to see her friends or something.
  • And causing her to sin is going to fix it? It doesn’t work that way. There is no replacement for God, look to the number of examples in scripture where people put up idols and worshiped false gods, look to modern times where people try to fill the void with materialism, look to my very signature for that one.
I don’t think I really managed to do anything. We just talked like we have done before, no progress. I called her mother later, and tried to talk to her. She just cussed my *** out, telling me how I had corrupted her beautiful daughter, how she would never forgive me for it. When I try to bring up the fact that our relationship might last, and that I thought she should try to accept her daughter as she is, she told me she would never give her daughter to a skirt chaser like me. I just hang up on her at this point, as it didn’t seem to do any good talking to her about this, and it is a limit to the amount of abuse I am willing to endure.
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Well, duh, she was an active practicing Catholic, you in the picture ruined it, what else did you expect to happen? Take her to mass and see what happens, you might get a miracle in the process, it has happened before. Also, how many girlfriends have you indeed had in the past? Do you have a reputation as a player or something? Even if you have changed your ways, you still need to prove it to them and that takes time.
 
Personally I think “addicted to sex” is somewhat of a leap from the small amount of information we have.
 
Funny how much I sound like her mother. And if you address her concerns the way you address and dismiss my comments, no there is no way you will make her come around.

Go reread YOUR link on the birth control. See the part where it says it operates by stopping ovulation, but if ovulation occurs, it prevents the ovum from implanting in the uterus by thinning the uterine lining. That is abortifacient. Does she know this? Is she dealing with the possible guilt that she could have already killed an unborn baby too?

Gosh, you’ve heaped a lot on her head. Or maybe Whatevergirl is right, you’ve helped her heap a lot on her own head.

Yes, Whatevergirl, we know she has free will and made choices. But just how rational are the choices of a 19 year old girl in luuuuuuvvvvv with her first serious BF?

Maybe Persuader is unfamiliar with those timeless lyrics:

Come out Virginia, don’t hesitate
You Catholic girls start much too late.
Sooner or later it comes down to fate
I might as well be the one
Only the good die young.

Thanks, Billy Joel.

Persuader, quit arguing with me about hormones. Every woman on this board knows exactly what hormones do to them mentally. Thing is, in a normal woman, those levels fluctuate, so they don’t always feel like crying, drowning in a chocolate cake or stabbing someone in the eye. Unless you have any first-hand knowlege of how estrogen, progesterone and other similar hormone combinations affect a woman mentally, just be quiet and listen and quit dismissing it.

Birth control messes with that fluctuation level and tricks a body kind of into thinking it’s pregnant. With all those emotions. But she’s not. And a psychiatrist isn’t going to take her off birth control because he’s not an OB/GYN. So she’s dealing with altered hormone levels.

I was a 19 year old virgin once. You know what? The guys at school knew they had to marry me if they wanted “some.” I had great male friends. And one of them once said, “No one wants to be the first. Too much responsibility.” What beautiful honesty.

You don’t seem to mind that. Whether it’s a product of your own upbringing… fact is, you took someone else’s virgin bride.

IF you want to get the mother’s attention, you will call her and say this:

“Hi. Don’t hang up. I’m worried about her. I may have been wrong about some things. I want to help her. She does trust me for some unknown reason, and I want her to trust you too. What can I do from my end? What can I do to improve our communication?” Then listen. Don’t argue. Write down what she says. If she says “Quit fornicating with my daughter,” do NOT say “I might, if all else fails and she agrees to let go of my magnificent love-making skillz.” And listen with humility and contrition. And know that whatever happens, THOSE are the people who will have to pay the medical, psychiatric and other bills to clean up whatever mess YOU leave behind. Because she sure wasn’t that way 9 months ago before you met her.

I’m very interested in whether you have talked to her father. And what HE has to say to you.

Long time ago, innocent girls were protected from men of uncertain virtue by their fathers.

Now we send them off to universities where they may be completely unprepared for the shocking confluence of freedom, a boy who is NOT a high school jerk, and lots of time away from the supervision of adults who have their best interest at heart.

Doesn’t matter how you raise a child, you take the chance that put in that environment, they will choose stupidly. It’s every parent’s fear.

No, she wasn’t your puppet. But that doesn’t mean you haven’t manipulated her. Unlike the men I met, who didn’t try anything, (not that I would have begged them), because most of them were Catholic and knew I was the kind you married. And they respected my parents and my family.

Have some respect for her mother’s broken heart and her fear for her daughter’s emotional safety and her immortal fate.

Do they want their daughter marrying an atheist? Well, they’ve seen the effect your atheism had on their own daughter’s faith. They probably wouldn’t encourage someone like you to do the same to the faith they hope for their grandchildren.

Their faith was a precious treasure they handed down to their daughter like some families hand down estates or jewels. They did not intend that it stop with her. If they think it will because of you, they will pray fervently that their daughter dump you and find a nice Catholic man.

They probably are doing just that now.

You’re only 20. Maybe you don’t know that it’s not smart to argue with a woman. Especially not one twice your age who has seen life in a way you haven’t yet. The girl’s mother has twice your experience and life span. She has given birth, she has probably faced things you know little of. She has watched friends and family make these same mistakes. She knows how the story usually ends. Her faith got her through it all probably. She wants that for her daughter. Because she knows how hard life can be for a wife and mother without that help. As her daughter’s life is already showing.

And if you can’t appreciate her mother, then leave your GF now. Because there’s another little secret about women you might not know. Most of them, when they become mothers, start turning into their own mother. Their world view changes and they begin to appreciate why mothers are the way they are. They revert to default mode. Yes, there are exceptions. But most often, they become more like their mothers, not less. And if she ever has children, chances are she won’t want to pass on to her innocent children as a faith legacy “nothingness” or “nihilism” or the idea that there is no God out there loving them.
 
Oh, and you’re WAAAYYY out of line telling the mother to accept her daughter as she is.

She spent that child’s life raising that daughter to become the sparkling beautiful girl you were bowled over by. She loves that girl unconditionally. YOU were the one who didn’t accept the girl as she was and help keep her that way. YOU couldn’t resist arguing against her faith and religion. YOU were the one who couldn’t help yourself and wouldn’t leave her virginity intact. YOU were the one who persisted in sexual relations after the first time to the point she got an implant to prevent conception. So she’s available to you every day of the week. YOU haven’t accepted her as she was. It was a group project: You pushed change on her. She changed to please YOU. Now you don’t like the change.

Don’t lecture the mother. No mother wants to have to accept a depressed, empty, non-believing daughter in place of the beautiful happy girl she sent off to college.
 
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