Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

[AlexV]

Oh really? Says who? You, an internet blogger?

Your opinion, indeed, and nothing more.

It’s really hilarious how some people are apparently so bothered by things like SP and would obviously prefer that everyone do exactly the same thing (i.e., the indult vernacular 1975/1985 Mass).

 

[rien]

Even here in the Philippines, few seem to be interested in the TLM. My mom grew up with the TLM and said she’s happy now with the Novus Ordu, and doesn’t want to go back to the TLM. Our parish simply doesn’t have any interest at all with it; I think the parish pastoral council already talked about it, and there was simply no interest whatsoever (and to think that most members of the pastoral council had experienced the TLM).

That goes along with a Phillipino friend at work. She attends a large mostly Phillipino parish in S, Sf. She certainly is not interested in the TLM (she ain’t young, approaching 60) and says no one in her parish is.

She is very orthodox and devout. Been to Fatima several times.

I really think the Vatican miscalculated the interest. It is or seems to be mainly a remnant group in the US and France.

Look at Africa - the large majority of African Catholics never heard/did not grow up with the TLM. The conversions their mostly have been in the last 15 years.

I support allowing the TLM for the apparent few who want it. But I have no doubt this will not be any kind of resurgence as TLM die-hards want to beleive.

Already we are seeing excuses that the lack of interest since the MP is because it was not advertised or parish councils/priests opposed it. Come on. That dog doesn’t hunt anymore.

Look at the indult FSSP parishes. Many around for years now. They have remained quite small and not drawn new members. IMO that is the reality which will continue to play out under the MO. The interest is simply not there in the US from what I see.

 

[AlexV]

Actually, in French Africa, the interest is indeed great. Gabon has thriving TLM communities, as do several other former French colonies. Remember that Lefebvre was arguably the single most important person in the French African Church’s evangelization in the 20th century.

But the issue isn’t ultimately interest. It’s justice and the organic unity of the liturgy. Just because something was almost universally trashed and vilified for 40 years and only slowly survives and resurges doesn’t speak to the future. Remember, most Catholics c. 1978 would have told you this liturgy was all but extinct.

 

[jflare29]

But the so-called Tridentine rite wasn’t actually new in 1600. Pope Pius V simply codified and reissued a liturgy that had existed essentially unchanged as the Roman Rite for more than 1,000 years.

Yes…and no.

I’ve heard that Pius V codified the Mass one way to handle two problems:

1. Regional differences had existed that weren’t always OK.
2. Reformation interests (like Luther) had taken on such, er, popularity, that some clergy and/or laity may have been accustomed to some “reformed” practices that weren’t always licit.

Were the changes nearly as obvious or obnoxious? I doubt most of us can quickly answer that. There has always been some degree of disagreement within the Church regarding how the liturgy should be offered. If we insist that everyone did it all the same way everywhere, prior to Pius V, I think we need better education regarding the Church’s history.

Actually, I think that’s part of why the rite needed to change in a visible manner. All this debate about how the Church changed so dramatically seem to me to reflect the reason why the Council was convoked in the first place: Too many Catholics had been going through the motions too much and knew too little about why.

That’s not to say that anyone was willfully ignorant per se, so much as to point out that human beings sometimes require being forced to change the appearance of something simply to challenge them to learn what they’re supposed to know more thoroughly.

As I think someone suggested, perhaps many people oppose the Novus Ordo partly because it required them to learn their faith more deeply, else their complaints were based mostly on resistance to change.

I do hope though, that more people will become better acquainted with the TLM. Even the Low Mass was quite beautiful, though that might be because the priest was dressed in white with a gold band on the back. Looking at that for 30 minutes can’t have hurt my impressions!

John

 

[Mom_of_5]

I think I would like to challenge the basic premise here. Not the future predictions, which I find hard to swallow, but the basic idea that anyone is afraid of the TLM. So I ask in this large forum of Catholics, is one, even one person afraid of the TLM?

No, not afraid of it, it is beautiful and the music was also beautiful. My problem was that even with the English/Latin Missal, I had a difficult time understanding the liturgy. It was frustrating for me but never kept me away . I loved communion at the rail and would like that to return. I loved the art in our churches that helped me keep focus of why I was in church. I love the new Mass as well. Yes there are abuses, however there were abuses in the Latin Mass as well. I went to daily Latin Mass for many years and well remember the priest saying Mass as fast as he could and bragging about his “record time”…

As with everything that human beings are a part of, there will be flaws in our worship services, no matter what the launguage used. The “old” or “new” does not matter, it is how the Mass is said and how it is received.

Love and peace
Mom of 5

 

[rien]

No, not afraid of it, it is beautiful and the music was also beautiful. My problem was that even with the English/Latin Missal, I had a difficult time understanding the liturgy. It was frustrating for me but never kept me away . I loved communion at the rail and would like that to return. I loved the art in our churches that helped me keep focus of why I was in church. I love the new Mass as well. Yes there are abuses, however there were abuses in the Latin Mass as well. I went to daily Latin Mass for many years and well remember the priest saying Mass as fast as he could and bragging about his “record time”…

As with everything that human beings are a part of, there will be flaws in our worship services, no matter what the launguage used. The “old” or “new” does not matter, it is how the Mass is said and how it is received.

Love and peace
Mom of 5

I quite agree. How the Mass is celebrated matters not so much. If the old Mass was so perfect and right how did virtually everyone give it up so quickly. The faith as inspired by the old Mass may have been miles and miles wide but it was obviously inches deep if we go back and read the histroy of the time.

 

[pnewton]

But the issue isn’t ultimately interest. It’s justice and the organic unity of the liturgy.

Not to accuse, but just to ask an honest question. Is this your opinion or what you think the Holy Father’s recent writings reflect? I was under the impression that interest and injustice were the prime reason.

 

[LarryRay]

I quite agree. How the Mass is celebrated matters not so much. If the old Mass was so perfect and right how did virtually everyone give it up so quickly.

Well, in some ways the post-V2 period within the Catholic Church has been similar to what happened during the so-called Reformation 500 years ago . One might ask if Catholicism is so right, how could so many have given it up so quickly and easily for Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anglicanism, etc.? The fact of the matter is that they didn’t have much choice. Changes were imposed from the top down. Catholicism was outlawed in Northern Europe, etc., and Lutheranism took its place, and that was that. If you were a Swede in 1550, and you simply went along with the changes because you had no choice, does that mean that Catholicism was inherently flawed?

Similarly, in 1970, a de facto ban on the TLM was imposed within the Church, and that was that. A lot of people fell away from the Church because of the changes. No one seems to worry or care much about them. Some folks stayed and liked the changes. And some stayed even though they didn’t like the changes.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

Similarly, in 1970, a de facto ban on the TLM was imposed within the Church, and that was that. A lot of people fell away from the Church because of the changes. No one seems to worry or care much about them. Some folks stayed and liked the changes. And some stayed even though they didn’t like the changes.

**People walked away from Jesus at various times in his public ministry.

He didn’t run after them offering to do things differently.**

 

[brotherhrolf]

AT each and every mass?

No, for a few years the 8 am Mass was w/o music and we found refuge there. Unfortunately that did not last much longer than the mid 70s. The last time I went to Mass w/o cantor was on New Years Day for the 8 am Mass a few years ago.

All of y’all who are in opposition to the EF. I have one basic question…why? You dredge up these old shibboleths over and over and over again ad nauseatum. NO ONE is aking you to abandon your practices. NO ONE is saying do it our way or else.

I formaly stand on the record tonight that I made my First Communion and Confirmation before Vatican II. I did not enbrace the changes which started before Advent of 1969. I certainly have not embraced the changes which I have seen over the last 40 years - the vast majority of which are not approved by HMC.

I have no intention of forcing any of you who are hapy with the changes to revert back. The Holy Father is giving those of us who believe as I do an opportunity. Why are the rest of you having such extreme reactions to something which is not going to affect you? I’ve held my tongue for forty years …why can’t you hold yours?

 

[ac_claire]

No, not afraid of it, it is beautiful and the music was also beautiful. My problem was that even with the English/Latin Missal, I had a difficult time understanding the liturgy. It was frustrating for me but never kept me away . I loved communion at the rail and would like that to return. I loved the art in our churches that helped me keep focus of why I was in church. I love the new Mass as well. Yes there are abuses, however there were abuses in the Latin Mass as well. I went to daily Latin Mass for many years and well remember the priest saying Mass as fast as he could and bragging about his “record time”…

As with everything that human beings are a part of, there will be flaws in our worship services, no matter what the launguage used. The “old” or “new” does not matter, it is how the Mass is said and how it is received.

I’m not “afraid” of the Latin Mass, either…
I’ve mainly posted in these forums to defend the NO, which sure takes a beating here sometimes. I’ve been to a couple TLM’s and I do prefer the NO. Has nothing to do with any 60s political agenda I’m trying to keep alive. I happen to hate “pickin n’ grinnin” music at mass; I like kneeling and receiving on the tongue; I really wouldn’t mind the priest facing away from us; I don’t mind the lack of community involvement, AND I don’t deny the TLM’s beauty and heritage. It’s the Latin- that’s my only real stumbling block. I would miss being able to understand the words, esp. during the Eucharistic prayer/consecration. Oh, and the lectionary! I’d miss that, too. But afraid…? No.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

All of y’all who are in opposition to the EF. I have one basic question…why?

I strongly stand with the concept that the HMC is NOT a democracy though it seems some have made efforts to make it one in this matter.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sigh! Profound sigh! I feel like an idiot. I have no 60s political agenda. I was a teenager in the 60s and I did not like what had happened to the Mass. I don’t like it now. Is that so hard to understand? Not all of us had long hair in the 60s. Not all of us protested the Vietnam War. Not all of us were happy with what happened to the Mass. I enlisted in the Navy. I had short hair. I didn’t smoke pot nor did I listen to rock music. Likewise, I did not turn my back on the Mass under which I grew up.

You wanted your say 40 years ago. Why are you protesting mine today?

 

[James0235]

It’s the Latin- that’s my only real stumbling block. I would miss being able to understand the words, esp. during the Eucharistic prayer/consecration. Oh, and the lectionary! I’d miss that, too. But afraid…? No.

I think the Latin was my only real issue at first. I had a Missal and could follow along in English but for the first few weeks I wasn’t really doing that. I think I was a little bit in awe of all that was going on at the altar. And then before I knew it I started to understand some of the Latin that was being said without even trying.

After a few weeks or maybe a couple of months of attendance at a Latin Mass (TLM or NO) I don’t think Latin would be much of an issue for most people.

I like the new Lectionary too. Not so much for the 3 yr cycle of readings as much as for the Old Testament reading. I really like seeing how the OT points to Christ.

James

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

Sigh! Profound sigh! I feel like an idiot. I have no 60s political agenda. I was a teenager in the 60s and I did not like what had happened to the Mass. I don’t like it now. Is that so hard to understand? Not all of us had long hair in the 60s. Not all of us protested the Vietnam War. Not all of us were happy with what happened to the Mass. I enlisted in the Navy. I had short hair. I didn’t smoke pot nor did I listen to rock music. Likewise, I did not turn my back on the Mass under which I grew up.

You wanted your say 40 years ago. Why are you protesting mine today?

I am not sure now who you are addressing but I was a teen then too.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I strongly stand with the concept that the HMC is NOT a democracy though it seems some have made efforts to make it one in this matter.

No HMC is NOT a democracy nor was the implementation of the Mass of Paul VI carried out the way VII envisioned it. And do YOU stand in defiance of the Holy Father? The MP is real. It is not to be merely “acknowledged” as it is here. What, was the HF talking about, tuna salad? If you like “vestal virgins” in diaphonous gowns wafting bowls of smouldering incense down the aisles of your cathedral, more power to you. But, please, don’t deny me that which I grew up with. I submit to you with full force that the “innovations” we have seen over the last 40 years have not been approved by HMC which renders your statment null.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

No HMC is NOT a democracy nor was the implementation of the Mass of Paul VI carried out the way VII envisioned it. And do YOU stand in defiance of the Holy Father? The MP is real. It is not to be merely “acknowledged” as it is here. What, was the HF talking about, tuna salad? If you like “vestal virgins” in diaphonous gowns wafting bowls of smouldering incense down the aisles of your cathedral, more power to you. But, please, don’t deny me that which I grew up with. I submit to you with full force that the “innovations” we have seen over the last 40 years have not been approved by HMC which renders your statment null.

**
Where do you get off accusing me of being in defiance of the Holy Father???**

 

[LarryRay]

People walked away from Jesus at various times in his public ministry.

He didn’t run after them offering to do things differently.

So, is that what you think Pope Benedict is doing with the motu proprio? Running after disaffected traditionalists offering to do things differently?

And, if so, so what?

If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and goeth to seek that which is gone astray? And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray. - Matthew 18:12-14

 

[James0235]

**
Where do you get off accusing me of being in defiance of the Holy Father???**

It was in the form of a question:
**And do YOU stand in defiance of the Holy Father?
**
Doesn’t look like an accusation. Looks like a question.

James

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

It was in the form of a question:
**And do YOU stand in defiance of the Holy Father?
**
Doesn’t look like an accusation. Looks like a question.

James

**
If it wasn’t for the aggressive tone of most of the posts (that I would end up editing out when I respond) it would be easier to think of it as just a question.**