Relativism confused as Christianity is gaining Muslims converts.

[cathgal]

To compare people to judge which is a better a religion. That’s no way to compare.

The difference between Muslims and Christians is freedom. The more freedom is given, the more a person has room to carry out his own ‘freedom’.

Give the Muslims American more time and eventually they will also blend in w/ the rest. Or haven’t they already?
They love freedom just as much as we in the west do.

After all, it wasn’t always this way w/ the Christians.

 

[Saint_Michael]

After all, it wasn’t always this way w/ the Christians.

That may be true but I don’t see their women dressed like hookers on the R train, and the men drunk at 2:00 in the afternoon on Sunday. I live amongst many Muslims, and I have to admit they carry themselves with much more dignity, especially the women. The young women sit quietly talking amongst themselves, while the Christian kids are loud and rude, the women hanging out all over the place, it’s no comparison. And in Brooklyn the women aren’t killed, in fact I believe that is a tiny fraction in the Muslim world.

So which is it? Have Christians lost their moral compass? Or was there a precipitous decline in actual practicing Chrsitians from two generations ago?

 

[cathgal]

That may be true but I don’t see their women dressed like hookers on the R train, and the men drunk at 2:00 in the afternoon on Sunday. I live amongst many Muslims, and I have to admit they carry themselves with much more dignity, especially the women. The young women sit quietly talking amongst themselves, while the Christian kids are loud and rude, the women hanging out all over the place, it’s no comparison. And in Brooklyn the women aren’t killed, in fact I believe that is a tiny fraction in the Muslim world.

You got to be fair in your comparison.
If you go back to the time since this world was discovered, there were mainly Christians, no Muslims. The Christians then were totally different w/ Christians of today. Given the expand of time and freedom, is it a wonder the Christians have become more secular. I’m talking about a number of generations in that expand of time. It’s hard to be a good Christian in this secular culture.
Now the Muslims. When did they first immigrate here.
Give them as much time as the Christians, do you think they would be any different. They’re not invincible to the culture we live in. They have to fight against the secular culture too if they want to remain a good Muslim.
Not all Christians are hookers and drunk men. But that just say how the secular can affect any of us if we’re not strong in the faith.

So which is it? Have Christians lost their moral compass? Or was there a precipitous decline in actual practicing Chrsitians from two generations ago?

If there’s a decline, it’s not the faith itself, but the world they live in that affected them.

The old Israel in the OT. Did they not become more pagan. That’s because they live among pagans and lost their faith along the way and so they became one.

You just be a good Christian and teach your daughter when she’s able to reason. I’m sure she’ll be ok.

 

[Booklover]

That may be true but I don’t see their women dressed like hookers on the R train, and the men drunk at 2:00 in the afternoon on Sunday. I live amongst many Muslims, and I have to admit they carry themselves with much more dignity, especially the women. The young women sit quietly talking amongst themselves, while the Christian kids are loud and rude, the women hanging out all over the place, it’s no comparison. And in Brooklyn the women aren’t killed, in fact I believe that is a tiny fraction in the Muslim world.

So which is it? Have Christians lost their moral compass? Or was there a precipitous decline in actual practicing Chrsitians from two generations ago?

Here’s a ray of hope!
://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/AmComm/America/virgin_its_not_a_dirty_word.htm

 

[Julianna]

I think it is propaganda to talk about Muslim women being more virtious. As I pointed out being killed is a great way to keep people in line. I know some very good and holy young men and women who are virgins. They are holy not because if they get caught they will be murdered, but because they want to do the right thing. In Islamic societies they have many problems, but will never talk about them or admit to them. They pretend all is well.

Parents are the key. Raise your daughter properly. Teach her right from wrong. Watch the influences on her. Tell me, if you see her with a boy unattended at age 12 would you kill her? That is how they do it. Is that really better? Do not idolize Islamic culture. You would not want to live that way. Why do you think so many of them want to come here?

Should that apply to sons as well? I wouldn’t leave my son unattended at age 12 with a girl.

I keep asking Saint_Michael who laments about the lack of virgins in his community…if he is one himself, or any of the guys he hangs around with…never got an answer. Makes me wonder if it’s a one way street.

Also, if you want to meet halfway decent women, what in the world are you doing in Brooklyn, let alone NY? Maybe a move is in order for you.

But you need to stop blaming the women…it takes two to tango.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I keep asking Saint_Michael who laments about the lack of virgins in his community…if he is one himself, or any of the guys he hangs around with…never got an answer. Makes me wonder if it’s a one way street.

I’m married, and it’s none of your business if I was before marriage or not.

Also, if you want to meet halfway decent women, what in the world are you doing in Brooklyn, let alone NY? Maybe a move is in order for you.

LOL and you’re accusing me of ignorance? You just insulted 3 million Brooklynites, and millions more New Yorkers. What a joke! Like Brooklyn is the only area in the West with these problems, please it’s our entire culture, some of the highest teen pregnancy rates are in the good old Bible belt.

“Among states with available data, Arkansas had the highest pregnancy rate among non-Hispanic white teenagers (77 per 1,000). Pregnancy rates among this group were alsohigh in other Southern states: Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, Kentucky and SouthCarolina (71–73 per 1,000). Meanwhile, North Dakota had the lowest rate among non-Hispanic white teenagers (33 per 1,000).”

guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf

But you need to stop blaming the women…it takes two to tango.

N.C. actually has a higher teen pregnancy rate than NY.

Anyone who doesn’t think it’s more the womans responsibility to keep her legs closed, and dress as to not lead men to lust isn’t being realistic. It’s in our biological make up for men to have a much stronger drive to procreate, it’s how God keeps us going, and for women to be selective in a mate. But no the sexual revolution taught our women to be sl*ts so they’re equal with men, and our entire culture bought into it. Women took out the “selective mate” part of the equation and hell has broken loose.

 

[Julianna]

I’m married, and it’s none of your business if I was before marriage or not.

LOL and you’re accusing me of ignorance? You just insulted 3 million Brooklynites, and millions more New Yorkers. What a joke! Like Brooklyn is the only area in the West with these problems, please it’s our entire culture, some of the highest teen pregnancy rates are in the good old Bible belt.

Anyone who doesn’t think it’s more the womans responsibility to keep her legs closed, and dress as to not lead men to lust isn’t being realistic. It’s in our biological make up for men to have a much stronger drive to procreate, it’s how God keeps us going, and for women to be selective in a mate. But no the sexual revolution taught our women to be sl*ts so they’re equal with men, and our entire culture bought into it. Women took out the “selective mate” part of the equation and hell has broken loose.

Yeah, I got my answer to the first question…finally. But if you were single, and looking for a wife, you would expect her to answer that question, and toss her aside if it wasn’t want you wanted to hear…as long as she didn’t ask the same of you.

Mike, there is something about living near ground zero, and high crime that makes me a little leary about why anyone would want to live there. I am orginally from MA (taxachusetts, welfare capital of New England) It’s much worse in the northeast than in the south. I really like living here. Difference in the teens here…they get married more often than not. Can’t say that about NY. Anywhoo

Yes, to a degree I agree that it is the woman who chooses to have sex, not the man. A man will go along with it. I do think women need to be more “selective”. I also believe that using the excuse “men have a stronger drive to procreate” is way off the beam. Truth is, they have a strong desire to have sex…not because they want a child as a result. Get real. It “is” up to the woman to say yes or no. The sexual revolution intent was to let women know they had a part in love making, desire and feeling as men do. It wasn’t just about the man. We aren’t supposed to lie back and think of England, or say to ourselves, “beige, I think, I’ll paint the ceiling beige”.

Clothing is not the issue…restraint is the issue. Stop blaming women’s clothing on your lust.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Yes, to a degree I agree that it is the woman who chooses to have sex, not the man. A man will go along with it. I do think women need to be more “selective”. I also believe that using the excuse “men have a stronger drive to procreate” is way off the beam. Truth is, they have a strong desire to have sex…not because they want a child as a result. Get real. It “is” up to the woman to say yes or no. The sexual revolution intent was to let women know they had a part in love making, desire and feeling as men do. It wasn’t just about the man. We aren’t supposed to lie back and think of England, or say to ourselves, “beige, I think, I’ll paint the ceiling beige”.

Clothing is not the issue…restraint is the issue. Stop blaming women’s clothing on your lust.

I honestly believe this feminist mumbo-jumbo, and women refusing to accept the God given differences between the sexes is the main reason we’re in this mess. It’s compeltely infiltrated the Church too, and it’s depressing.

 

[the_phoenix]

Clothing is not the issue…restraint is the issue. Stop blaming women’s clothing on your lust.

In the spirit of fairness, please allow me to present the following quotations from a website on Preparation for Confession at the link below: trosch.org/chu/examcons.html

"PADRE PIO Annoyed – Padre Pio was greatly annoyed when women in indecent clothes got in his way. If that happened in church, he ordered them out of the holy place at once. Women and men were allowed to enter the church only with three-quarter length sleeves. Boys and men had to wear long trousers in church. (During Padre Pio’s lifetime it was unheard of that Catholic women would enter church without being in a skirt sufficiently below the knees.) "

Also from the same website,

"WARNING FROM FATIMA – When little Jacinta (10 years old) was in the hospital in Lisbon, Portugal, she told Mother Godinho: “Fashions will much offend Our Lord. People who serve God should not follow the fashions. Our Lord is always the same. The sins which cause most souls to go to hell are the sins of the flesh. If men (and women) knew what eternity is, they would do everything to change their lives.”

And Jacinta was merely repeating the words of Our Lady of Fatima, which you can see posted on a website on Directives on Christian Modesty at tldm.org/News6/modesty.htm

And here is what this second website posts about St. Padre Pio:

“St. Padre Pio dismissed from his confessional, before they could step inside, all women he judged to be incorrectly dressed. By 1967, on some mornings, he turned them away one after another, until he ended up confessing very few. His brethren noticed this with a certain unease, then decided to post on the door of the church a warning: “By Padre Pio’s explicit wish, women must enter the confessional wearing skirts AT LEAST 8 INCHES BELOW THE KNEE. It is forbidden to borrow longer dresses in church and to wear them to confession.” The beginning of the struggle with no concessions whatsoever coincided more or less with the advent of the mini-skirt, launched by the English girl Mary Quant. It had not yet reached Italy as Padre Pio was thundering against short skirts.”

And how does all this relate to the original topic of this thread? I would say that if EVERY Catholic Christian reading this post could do his or her part in providing a good example for Muslims to follow, as well as PRAY and DO PENANCE for the conversion of the Muslims, we could be converting them instead of the other way around.

The Rosary asked by Our Lady of Fatima comes to mind … it was no coincidence that the Blessed Mother chose to appear in a place named after a favorite daughter of Mohammed.

~~ the phoenix

 

[inJESUS]

Regarding Muslims, well i see them in Mary’s shrines more than i see Catholics !

Regarding clothes, i do agree on decency obviously. But i cannot blame non-Christians and secular “Christians” if they chose their freedom. After all, you can’t impose God on people. God will not reward a woman who was decent despite herself…that is, did not do it out of free-will but because there is a man on the street waiting to flogg her if he saw some skin. You only need to see Saudi women when they leave Saudi Arabia !! i see them everyday wearing tight jeans or skirts, full make-up, very colourful high heels and obviously no veil…before going back to SA, they become different persons. I cannot blame these women since flogging is the result in their country. But i would NOT say these are decent women even if they are veiled with all that black thing.

 

[Lance]

It is a good post, and I understand a “practicing Christian” would abide by the commandments. But then that means in our western society there are very few practicing Christians. Does that mean that our society is hopelessly broken and apostate? I think that’s what the guy is saying. Every Christian society seems totally lost Canda, Americas, Europe totally secular, and ridden with sexual deviancy not since since anciet Rome. And the Muslims at least do daily prayer, remain chaste prior to marriage as a rule like we did even 60 years ago (not 100% but I would think most people could admit their track record is significantly better than the western societies).

I don’t think many, most mens styles are traditional jeans/khakis and collared shirts for night life. Work styles are suits or busniess casual (khaki and collared shirt, maybe a blazer), and when relaxing jeans and t-shirt. The guy you described would fit in nicely in Greenwhich village, not so much anywhere else. Women’s styles here are made to accentuate their breasts, butt, or legs, and that’s the way it is, even for church and work women can’t keep their breasts in their shirt, or their shorts or skirts from exposing their buttocks when they sit down. Women are so overly sexualized here, that it is sickening. I have a baby on the way when I found out it was a daughter I cried for a week. My daughter doesn’t stand a chance in this society.

I pity your daughter. With a father like you she may rebell and become exactly what you fear. Do you not fear for your soul, thinking of converting? When my wife became pregnant with our 3 daughters I was over joyed. When our oldest daughter died I cried for a year, what a pity you could not be happy that you were having a daughter. I would give anything to have mine back. You sound like a Muslim man who can not control his sexual desires and is constantly ogling women.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I pity your daughter. With a father like you she may rebell and become exactly what you fear. Do you not fear for your soul, thinking of converting? When my wife became pregnant with our 3 daughters I was over joyed. When our oldest daughter died I cried for a year, what a pity you could not be happy that you were having a daughter. I would give anything to have mine back. You sound like a Muslim man who can not control his sexual desires and is constantly ogling women.

Well I’m very sorry for your loss, but it doesn’t excuse your uncharitable remarks to me and insults. Let’s elevate the conversation and not snipe at one another. I lost my father at 12 but I don’t dump on someone upset with their father.

In todays western society no I’m not pleased with having a daughter of course not, I’m horrified for her, she doesn’t stand a chance, she’s inundated by society to be nothing but a skinny, pretty, sex object. Motherhood, being a good wife, and chastity are the least important of all. And no matter the parents influence societies is always stronger. Of course I wanted a son, I didn’t want any daughters, I wanted all sons.

 

[pro_universal]

Saint Michael,

I understand your concerns with American society (being an American myself), and I sympathize.

I think religious parents in America have become masters of living in the fantasyland where teens are really just playing checkers and eating candies with all that time they spend alone together.

The fact of the matter is, in America, most people will have multiple partners before marriage (including girls), starting at a young age. And many of the people who say on surveys that they’re waiting for marriage are not telling the truth (I just saw a study come out on that…how hard it is to track sexual behavior over time because youngsters lie about it.)

It’s very easy to say “oh, why can’t men control their desires!”, but face it: we all know that it is only in a fantasy world that men do not have powerful, involuntary desires that are aroused by images of the female body. More skin, more arousal. Maybe you think that’s wrong, but it’s a plain fact of life, and it’s the way God made men.

I just want to add, in my humble opinion, questioning a poster’s sexual history in this discussion entirely exceeds the bounds of decency one would expect in a religious conversation. The same goes for accusing the poster of being a bad father. That’s just plain rude and inexcusable.

 

[inJESUS]

Of course I wanted a son, I didn’t want any daughters, I wanted all sons.

do sons have a better choice?

 

[inJESUS]

I just want to add, in my humble opinion, questioning a poster’s sexual history in this discussion entirely exceeds the bounds of decency one would expect in a religious conversation. The same goes for accusing the poster of being a bad father. That’s just plain rude and inexcusable.

are you saying that when Jesus said : who amongst you has no sin let him throw the first stone, Jesus was not decent? well Jesus was correct cuz he showed the hypocrisy of those who JUDGED when they themselves were guilty…so for a person to judge virginity morals when he himself is guilty of it we only got Jesus’ response : You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.

If and If every person starts by himself, the world will be much better…but commiting the sin and blaming others is hypocrisy.

 

[Julianna]

Originally Posted by pro_universal
*I just want to add, in my humble opinion, questioning a poster’s sexual history in this discussion entirely exceeds the bounds of decency one would expect in a religious conversation. The same goes for accusing the poster of being a bad father. That’s just plain rude and inexcusable.
*

The OP seems to blame women an awful lot. Stating lack of virginity of women he has known. It’s ok to exceed the bounds of decency when it comes to women…but men get a free pass. What about the men? Is it ok for the men NOT to be chaste until they get married? Sorry, bub, there is no one side to this story, and with all his rantings, I doubt seriously the OP is ready for sainthood.

And after reading the post about wanting all “sons”…I have made the correct observation. I just hope his daughter never hears him say that, or she will dial Hugh Hefner’s phone number, quicker than a bunny. (pun intended) And what a horrible thing to say wanting only sons.

 

[pro_universal]

The OP seems to blame women an awful lot. Stating lack of virginity of women he has known. It’s ok to exceed the bounds of decency when it comes to women…but men get a free pass. What about the men? Is it ok for the men NOT to be chaste until they get married? Sorry, bub, there is no one side to this story, and with all his rantings, I doubt seriously the OP is ready for sainthood.

I don’t think it’s okay, I was referring to personal questions about sexual history. That goes for men and women. I hope no one would ever dare ask you how many partners you’ve had. It is rude.

Also, I don’t read him as blaming women. He seems to me to be blaming society for raising women to behave this way. There is certainly merit in that. Don’t you feel that it’s wrong to pressure young women to have sex and to go around half naked in the name of “liberation”?

A woman’s body is first and foremost God’s gift to that woman, and it’s a very personal gift. I think we should encourage women to take ownership of their bodies by practicing modesty, so that instead of being a display-platform for men to look at, they see their bodies as personal gifts from God that they will keep to themselves and share (visually and physically) only when they feel the time is right.

And after reading the post about wanting all “sons”…I have made the correct observation. I just hope his daughter never hears him say that, or she will dial Hugh Hefner’s phone number, quicker than a bunny. (pun intended) And what a horrible thing to say wanting only sons.

Of course this is fair, but he’s saying it to make a point about how badly he thinks women are treated here. Not to say that women are bad, just that he doesn’t want his child to suffer in this culture any more than necessary.

 

[Julianna]

*Of course this is fair, but he’s saying it to make a point about how badly he thinks women are treated here. Not to say that women are bad, just that he doesn’t want his child to suffer in this culture any more than necessary.
*

Then why is he living in the central “hub” of the very culture he dislikes? It’s NY for goodness sakes.

And if he is displeased with this culture American, he has options…

No one treats you badly without your permission. Our young women today are in a slump where they think they need a man, and will do anything, even compromise their integrity to get him. How sad. If you treat your wife well, your daughters will look for a man like you. If you repress them, they will find a man who is repressive, because that will be all they know. You can’t live in a fish bowl.

 

[pro_universal]

Then why is he living in the central “hub” of the very culture he dislikes? It’s NY for goodness sakes.

Why does NY have such a bad rap? I liked it when I visited, and I found the people to be more curteous than Californians.

]No one treats you badly without your permission. Our young women today are in a slump where they think they need a man, and will do anything, even compromise their integrity to get him. How sad. If you treat your wife well, your daughters will look for a man like you. If you repress them, they will find a man who is repressive, because that will be all they know. You can’t live in a fish bowl.

In other words, you agree with Saint Michael’s post that women are being socialized to behave in the wrong way with their sexuality?

The fact is, your daughters aren’t only influenced by you anymore. They also have friends at school, media images, and a million other things you can’t control.

 

[Ella]

Young men who have intercourse outside of marriage, and who die without confession… go to hell. Just like young women do.