Relativism confused as Christianity is gaining Muslims converts.

[deb1]

Eden,

We can’t on the one hand credit Christianity for building the free West, and on the other rail that the rampant immorality in our free societies in the US and Europe has nothing to do with our Christian heritage. We built this monster, and we are living in it. We also can’t deny that our country is 75% Christian and leads the world in abortions, pornography production, per capita imprisonment, drug abuse, sex crimes, murder etc…

.

Are you certain that our country leads the world in sex crimes, murders etc. I have never heard that before. Could you post links to your statistics?

 

[deb1]

That may be true but I don’t see their women dressed like hookers on the R train, and the men drunk at 2:00 in the afternoon on Sunday. I live amongst many Muslims, and I have to admit they carry themselves with much more dignity, especially the women. The young women sit quietly talking amongst themselves, while the Christian kids are loud and rude, the women hanging out all over the place, it’s no comparison. And in Brooklyn the women aren’t killed, in fact I believe that is a tiny fraction in the Muslim world.

So which is it? Have Christians lost their moral compass? Or was there a precipitous decline in actual practicing Chrsitians from two generations ago?

During the first Gulf War, I knew many soldiers who fought there. They returned with interesting stories.

The Female soldiers couldn’t go anywhere without a male escort. Some of the women were propostioned by these nice Muslim men who assumed that they could have sex with Americans. One soldier told me that he was approached by a man who wanted to ‘purchase’ the female soldier with him(I am not making this up)

Another male soldier told me that he was walking with a group of soldiers, when one of the Saudi women looked up. She was wearing a burqua but because she apparently looked in the direction of the American soldiers, her male escort knocked her to the ground in front of a group of people.

Other soldiers were warned not to be down town at certain times because that was when the beheadings occured.

The soldiers were all told not to talk to any Saudi women and if they had to approach a group of people to always address the men first.

Today, American soldiers aren’t allowed to walk through Saudi cities like they did during the first Gulf War.

 

[deb1]

Well I’m very sorry for your loss, but it doesn’t excuse your uncharitable remarks to me and insults. Let’s elevate the conversation and not snipe at one another. I lost my father at 12 but I don’t dump on someone upset with their father.

In todays western society no I’m not pleased with having a daughter of course not, I’m horrified for her, she doesn’t stand a chance, she’s inundated by society to be nothing but a skinny, pretty, sex object. Motherhood, being a good wife, and chastity are the least important of all. And no matter the parents influence societies is always stronger. Of course I wanted a son, I didn’t want any daughters, I wanted all sons.

I have two sons and two daughters and I worry equally about all of them. It sounds as if you believe that a girl loosing her virginity before marriage, is worse then a guy having premarital sex. This isn’t true. It is tragic for both genders.

 

[KindredSoul]

the highligted is more the train ofthought i have. we can be guilty of others sins as well, if we cause them to sin. …
ex…a recovering sex addict either sex] is walking down the street, and a scantily clad person the sex the first one is attracted to] appears and the sex addict is immediately overwhelmed with tempation…try as he/she might, but later that day , they abuse themselves…that sin woudl also lay on the shoulders of the scantily clad person.

my “big picture” being… were are always doing one of two things: either we are leading people to Christ…or we are leading people away from Christ…there is no inbetween, no fence to ride on, no gray area.

how do you feel abou that?

Actually, you’ve got a good point…as long as you consider this: The scantily clad person has every reason to blame themselves…but the sex addict can only blame self as well. In other words, we can blame ourselves for others’ sins (which actually fits into the grand scheme of not making excuses for ourselves) but we should not blame others for our sins. The sex addict, for instance, will never get any better if he/she thinks he/she can lay the blame elsewhere. Even if the blame belongs elsewhere. I suppose a third party, who’s balanced, can logically say that both sides are to blame. So if I know a scantily clad person has tempted someone successfully, I can truly say that both people were to blame. In advising both people, if given the chance, I can say that both are sinning, both have a responsability to each other and that both should stop their ways…in any case, I must keep it balanced, in a normal case. However, from the inside POV, each person should blame only themselves for their own sin, and maybe for the sin of the other, but never the other for their own sin. A man, for instance, might approach a woman who seduced him earlier, and tell her of the error of her ways for her sake, but must refrain from saying “If not for you, I’d not have sinned.” This may or may not be true…but the human desire to place blame “somewhere besides me” is too great to start making excuses.

A third party, keep in mind, might (in concerned Christian love) suggest “Is it not possible that he might not have sinned without your influence?” The same person, though, would have to suggest to the man “Is it not possible that you might have provided her a good example instead of joining her in her sin?” As you can see, that third party would have to be balanced so as not to start taking sides, but to rather just point out the realistic way in which each might honestly bear responsability for the other. I imagine a Priest would have such experience, though I can’t say for sure. (Keep in mind, the genders here could easily be flipped around…it’s about the situation, not the genders fulfilling the roles)

In short, if everyone blamed themselves for their own sins, and even (when indeed appropriate) for the sins of others, the world would by default be a better place as people took more responsability for their actions and the damage done to others…if, on the other hand, people blamed others for their sins, the world might slip into even further moral decay because of the lack of self-responsability.

 

[Ella]

During the first Gulf War, I knew many soldiers who fought there. They returned with interesting stories.

The Female soldiers couldn’t go anywhere without a male escort. Some of the women were propostioned by these nice Muslim men who assumed that they could have sex with Americans. One soldier told me that he was approached by a man who wanted to ‘purchase’ the female soldier with him(I am not making this up)

Another male soldier told me that he was walking with a group of soldiers, when one of the Saudi women looked up. She was wearing a burqua but because she apparently looked in the direction of the American soldiers, her male escort knocked her to the ground in front of a group of people.

Other soldiers were warned not to be down town at certain times because that was when the beheadings occured.

The soldiers were all told not to talk to any Saudi women and if they had to approach a group of people to always address the men first.

Today, American soldiers aren’t allowed to walk through Saudi cities like they did during the first Gulf War.

Ask around, original poster, and you’ll find that many women in the West have stories of being harassed by arab or iranian men, while on the subway, on the street, etc. It is a very unsafe feeling to be ogled and harassed, sometimes pinched, by these men. I don’t think these men are chaste at all. But their wives and daughters, kept in a box at home, are by nature of their prisons.

 

[ronald]

Hi Michael, Many Moslem women and men in Indonesia are not virgin by their marriage. Tell your friend no matter happens in this world we never leave Jesus. Satan is very smart my friend.

Even if the Pope converts, I am still Christian.

 

[undeserving]

The OP has an agenda, he is just trying to prove that since muslims morality so called is superior it must be a superior religion. I have women friends who say if they visit Pakistan they feel like they are slabs of meat, Men even the well educated ones stare at them as if they wanted to eat them. Their eyes crawl over every bit of exposed flesh. My friends wear saris, no leg exposure but bits of neck and midriff(the back), and bare arms, not indecently so, even then my friends say that they almost wished, they had burquas. Thats how moral your muslims are.

 

[exoflare]

The OP has an agenda, he is just trying to prove that since muslims morality so called is superior it must be a superior religion. I have women friends who say if they visit Pakistan they feel like they are slabs of meat, Men even the well educated ones stare at them as if they wanted to eat them. Their eyes crawl over every bit of exposed flesh. My friends wear saris, no leg exposure but bits of neck and midriff(the back), and bare arms, not indecently so, even then my friends say that they almost wished, they had burquas. Thats how moral your muslims are.

Hehe… I once knew a Pakistani Muslim who was my friend when he lived here (later on I found out he was talking bad about me behind my back). There was one time when he was going into his house real quick to get something and when I asked if I could come in with him he was like “no… my sister’s in there.”

At the time I didn’t know what his deal was, but with I think your post sheds a lot of light on it. I guess they assume ALL men cannot control themselves in the presence of a woman. What a shame…

 

[pro_universal]

The OP has an agenda, he is just trying to prove that since muslims morality so called is superior it must be a superior religion. I have women friends who say if they visit Pakistan they feel like they are slabs of meat, Men even the well educated ones stare at them as if they wanted to eat them. Their eyes crawl over every bit of exposed flesh. My friends wear saris, no leg exposure but bits of neck and midriff(the back), and bare arms, not indecently so, even then my friends say that they almost wished, they had burquas. Thats how moral your muslims are.

Indians who visit Pakistan? And then don’t wear the shalwar kameez?

Strange…very strange story indeed.

 

[pro_universal]

Hehe… I once knew a Pakistani Muslim who was my friend when he lived here (later on I found out he was talking bad about me behind my back). There was one time when he was going into his house real quick to get something and when I asked if I could come in with him he was like “no… my sister’s in there.”

At the time I didn’t know what his deal was, but with I think your post sheds a lot of light on it. I guess they assume ALL men cannot control themselves in the presence of a woman. What a shame…

If you are finding that your friends secretly don’t like you, and that they don’t want you around their sisters…you might stop to think about what it is in yourself that causes this.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

This guys is a Muslim haha There seems to be alot Muslems attacking our forums here. Doesnt fool me because honestly why would he be on a muslim forum cuz he is curious so he can stop a fellow christian from converting to the land of chaste women as he paints it? You think if people were happy with there faith they wouldnt be reading on other religons forums.

 

[undeserving]

Indians who visit Pakistan? And then don’t wear the shalwar kameez?

Strange…very strange story indeed.

Pakistani women wear sari’s didn’t you know? We were one country once. By the way Indian muslims are not like this. I guess its because they live in a society where women move about freely.

 

[lucybeebee]

Many non-Christian or non-Jewis religions appear to be attractive to us Westerners, because we do not have regular contract with a large number of people from those traditions or have first-hand knowledge of how those faiths are lived out by the average person. Buddhism has a very good repuatation in the West, because the only people we see who practice it tend to be peaceful monks. However, this ignores the fact that many self-proclaimed Buddhists in Asia violate Buddhist norms, such as the taking of intoxicating agents (e.g., drinking, drugs, tobacco), violence in the name of religion (“War Zen” in WWII Japan), and misogny (in the Theraveda tradition women cannot become monastics, which is the primary route to Nirvana). It is easy to have a poor opinion of Catholicism if the only Catholics you know flout Church teachings or if you never got over being hit by a ruler by sister 40+ years ago. It is also easy to view Christianity in general as being hypocritical and foolish if you only base your opinions on the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons. Islam seems attractive to morality minded Americans as long as they don’t examine too closely how Muslims actually behave in majority Muslim countries.

 

[Ella]

Good post lucybeebee!

 

[pro_universal]

Pakistani women wear sari’s didn’t you know? We were one country once. By the way Indian muslims are not like this. I guess its because they live in a society where women move about freely.

Yes, I do know, but Pakistani saris do not expose much skin. They are not at all like an Indian style Sari in that sense.

And I know it’s extremely difficult for Indians to get visas to Pakistan, and for Pakistanis to get visas to India.

I think it’s quite hypocritical for Indians to bash Pakistani culture. Women are still forced to burn themselves alive just for the “crime” of being widowed in India…certainly, the treatment of women there is no better than it is in the worst parts of Pakistan.

 

[TheGarg]

I post on a Muslim message board because the religion intrigues me, and I find myself curious even drawn to it. In reading the story of a poster who is a Catholic considering converting to Islam he wrote this:

"The number one benefit of the muslim way, in my eyes, is the fact that moslim women seem to be way more chaste than Christian women or unbelievers. They tend to refrain from engaging in premarital sex (zina); and the low divorce rate of muslim marriages is certainly highly praiseworthy.

To tell you the truth, if I ever convert, it would be in an attempt to seek a muslim wife and reduce the risk of a horrible family life with an unbeliever or with a Christian wife. Another advantage would be the fact that muslims seem to be more successful at keeping the children within the creed, while children born to Christian parents become almost systematically atheists, and that would be horrible in my book."

I found myself both flabbergasted and unable to refute what the poster wrote. Fact is most western Christian women have been with several men by the time they marry I would guestimate ~90-95% of western Christian women are not virgins by marriage . I would assume the Muslim percentage is far lower. How do you argue with something like this? What do I say to the guy? Yeah Christianity is great even though 95% of the West doesn’t abide by its precepts???

What do I say to the guy, I’ve also had the same thoughts (not converting to Islam though). How is our way the right way when the fruit we bear is rotten?

what this person wrote, was evident of someone who is seeking to bein in control, instead of “letting God Drive”…When i get married again, i want it to tbe a woman God sends to me, and I want her to submit to me out of Love, not obligtion…free will don’t ya konw …so i can lay down my Life for her, as our faith tells us to do. by the way Life = all aspects of my life, well be submitted to Jesus, and how he tells me as a Man to care for my wife.

the reaons this man gave for attraction are self serving and do not gloify God…think about it…he said is willing to GIVE UP JESUS for a woman? …wow…it is not even a contest for me…

peace be with you,
I hope this doesn’t take long to figure out

 

[Ella]

I think it’s quite hypocritical for Indians to bash Pakistani culture. Women are still forced to burn themselves alive just for the “crime” of being widowed in India…certainly, the treatment of women there is no better than it is in the worst parts of Pakistan.

I think this is a bizarre post, Pro. Are you saying that Indian women have no right to complain if Pakistani men ogle them lustfully, (even threateningly), because some Indian wives are forced to burn themselves alive?

 

[Saint_Michael]

What a sad turn this topic has taken, I think if you actually read my opening post I’m pretty honest about my intent, I even gave the site where I posted and my name on that site. All it’s turned into is a handful of good “Christians” accusing me of being a liar, and a conspirator.

Hopefully the moderator will shut it down before it devolves even further.

 

[pro_universal]

I think this is a bizarre post, Pro. Are you saying that Indian women have no right to complain if Pakistani men ogle them lustfully, (even threateningly), because some Indian wives are forced to burn themselves alive?

No. I’m doubting that he’s telling the truth about this trip. Indians generally are not allowed into Pakistan, and if Indian women were on a trip, it would make no sense for them to wear clothing which they well know is inappropriate by local standards.

If you will again reread my post, I was criticizing that poster’s attack on Pakistan and the comparison to “how women live in India”, not any woman’s opinion on the subject of men’s eye-balling.

 

[pro_universal]

What a sad turn this topic has taken, I think if you actually read my opening post I’m pretty honest about my intent, I even gave the site where I posted and my name on that site. All it’s turned into is a handful of good “Christians” accusing me of being a liar, and a conspirator.

Hopefully the moderator will shut it down before it devolves even further.

I sympathize. I was in your shoes once too. Good luck in finding some cooler heads to talk things over with.