Relativism

[CatsAndDogs]

quote: CatsAndDogs

“The final arbiter of what a sin is is the Church. That is where to go for a “ruling”.”

Actually the Church is not the final arbiter of what is a sin. Scripture is the guide and God decides and judges what is right and what is wrong.

You’re not Catholic, are you?

The authoritative voice of God is the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium (as such), which has existed since Adam, is our only (fully authorized) interpreter of God’s revelation.

Scripture is a subset of the deposit of faith, and subservient to the full deposit of faith and to that one thing which is capable of interpreting it’s meaning within it’s proper context.

You are correct that God is the sole judge of good and evil behavior (faith and morals) as to the disposition of persons post-earthly death, of course!

And anyone who absolutely claims there is no absolute truth raises a self defeating and worthless argument.

Absolutely true! <chuckle, chuckle, chuckle, chuckle>

Though, some will say, with a straight face: Absolutely untrue!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

deep down, everyone’s beliefs are relative whether they want to admit it or not.

Our “operating” morality, the morality which we actually display as behavior, IS quite often rather relative, even if we profess a strict non-relative (absolutist) morality.

That is a failure of application of one’s absolute morality, and not a failure of that absolute morality.

Show me how our absolutist Catholic morality is a “failure” in itself?

people who scream the loudest about their strict morality
are usually the biggest liars (eg. certain priests, preachers,
and conservative talk show hosts).

“the heart is most deceitful above all” is it not?

Your “biggest liars” are just people most easily identified as being hypocrits. Your choice of which hypocrits you display for us shows your prejudices perfectly!

You are a leftist anti-God person, no?

people who claim absolute morality have never really been tested.
cuz when it comes down to your survival, i think you will find
that you will do what’s necessary.

By “doing what is necessary to survive”, do you mean “doing what is necessary to survive in the only existence which we will ever know”?

The Catholic knows that we survive our earthly death, and that by doing certain things to “survive bodily”, which the relativist thinks is the ONLY type of survival there is, we place ourselves for our eternal survival in a place which we absolutely do not want.

To know that we can survive on earth while knowing that we will survive in eternity in hell is to be able to choose to die for a good, as opposed to live for an evil.

 

[55442andy]

You’re not Catholic, are you?

You’re quite correct.

 

[55442andy]

Our “operating” morality, the morality which we actually display as behavior, IS quite often rather relative, even if we profess a strict non-relative (absolutist) morality.

That is a failure of application of one’s absolute morality, and not a failure of that absolute morality.

Show me how our absolutist Catholic morality is a “failure” in itself?

Your “biggest liars” are just people most easily identified as being hypocrits. Your choice of which hypocrits you display for us shows your prejudices perfectly!

You are a leftist anti-God person, no?

By “doing what is necessary to survive”, do you mean “doing what is necessary to survive in the only existence which we will ever know”?

The Catholic knows that we survive our earthly death, and that by doing certain things to “survive bodily”, which the relativist thinks is the ONLY type of survival there is, we place ourselves for our eternal survival in a place which we absolutely do not want.

To know that we can survive on earth while knowing that we will survive in eternity in hell is to be able to choose to die for a good, as opposed to live for an evil.

But I’m with you all the way on this one!!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

But I’m with you all the way on this one!!

Perhaps I’m just being selfish, but I’d like to know specifically what you agree with me on within that mass of blithering of mine.

Can you be more specific? Thanks in advance if you will be so!

 

[55442andy]

Our “operating” morality, the morality which we actually display as behavior, IS quite often rather relative, even if we profess a strict non-relative (absolutist) morality.

That is a failure of application of one’s absolute morality, and not a failure of that absolute morality…

The Catholic knows that we survive our earthly death, and that by doing certain things to “survive bodily”, which the relativist thinks is the ONLY type of survival there is, we place ourselves for our eternal survival in a place which we absolutely do not want…

These are the pieces I agree with - though it’s not just Roman Catholics who know this last one.

 

[DD2007]

Hi everyone,

I’m new to the Catholic church. I was baptized last year.

I’d like to start a discussion on relativism because I’ve heard Pope Benedict talk about it and I’m very interested in this subject.

Perhaps the Catholics here could tell me what they think relativism is, or give references or links to provide information on it.

Why is this concept so important in our modern age?

Thanks, I very much look forward to learning about this.

I’ve been told I’m a relativist…

I believe that you can’t know what is true unless the Divine tells you…so you should do whatever you are most comfortable with according to your conscience…

I think thats what they call relativism…

I’m most comfortable as a Catholic…so I am one…etc

A lot of Catholics don’t like that…they call us cafateria Catholics…but there are a lot of us…I simply feel more comfortable going with what the conscience tells me to do…thats pretty much it.

 

[fix]

I’ve been told I’m a relativist…

I believe that you can’t know what is true unless the Divine tells you…so you should do whatever you are most comfortable with according to your conscience…

I think thats what they call relativism…

I’m most comfortable as a Catholic…so I am one…etc

A lot of Catholics don’t like that…they call us cafateria Catholics…but there are a lot of us…I simply feel more comfortable going with what the conscience tells me to do…thats pretty much it.

I am suggesting you take a look at this:

Nonetheless, at this point, a contradiction can arise. It is of course undisputed that one must follow a certain conscience or at least not act against it. But whether the judgment of conscience or what one takes to be such, is always right, indeed whether it is infallible, is another question. For if this were the case, it would mean that there is no truth—at least not in moral and religious matters, which is to say, in the areas which constitute the very pillars of our existence. For judgments of conscience can contradict each other. Thus there could be at best the subject’s own truth, which would be reduced to the subject’s sincerity. No door or window would lead from the subject into the broader world of being and human solidarity. Whoever thinks this through will come to the realization that no real freedom exists then and that the supposed pronouncements of conscience are but the reflection of social circumstances. This should necessarily lead to the conclusion that placing freedom in opposition to authority overlooks something. There must be something deeper, if freedom and, therefore, human existence are to have meaning…

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Our “operating” morality, the morality which we actually display as behavior, IS quite often rather relative, even if we profess a strict non-relative (absolutist) morality.

That is a failure of application of one’s absolute morality, and not a failure of that absolute morality…

The Catholic knows that we survive our earthly death, and that by doing certain things to “survive bodily”, which the relativist thinks is the ONLY type of survival there is, we place ourselves for our eternal survival in a place which we absolutely do not want…

These are the pieces I agree with - though it’s not just Roman Catholics who know this last one.

Thanks again for refreshing my feeble memory about which things you were agreeing with me. I’m SO unused to people actually agreeing with me that it’s rather a shock when it happens!

I agree with you entirely about the fact that people who aren’t Catholic, or even Christian, or even consider themselves “having a religion at all”, can and do agree with those truths that were enumerated.

And I’m sure you’ll agree that anyone who says they don’t have an absolute morality is suffering from some sort of “self delusion”, as people may change their morals depending on circumstances if their morals aren’t particularly “reasoned and confirmed”, but at any one time all persons operate from their (at that time) absolute moral standards. Yes, no? (…to misuse a particularly pithy “frenchism” (aka: yet another unrecorded “Clouseau-ism”). )

 

[WindyHair]

“operating morality”? are you serious?

you can call it what you want i guess. anyone can profess
to an absolute morality, but in the end, it’s your actions that counts.
maybe if we focused more on our “operating morality”
and not so much on the professed “absolute morality” the
world would be a better place.

some of us don’t believe in the after life so there is no
point in trying to survive eternaly. i don’t know about
u guys, but i find life is pretty precious.

i guess the difference here then is that some of us
don’t do “good” so that we can get into heaven.
we don’t need the carrot stick of eternal life,
10000 virgins, etc. to know compassion.
compassion and not wanting to see others suffer
comes from the heart, not a book.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

“operating morality”? are you serious?

Yes. Even St. Paul said that he often did what he didn’t want to do. He KNEW the absolutes of his morality, and yet operationally, meaning “in operation”, didn’t obey his own moral tenets.

you can call it what you want i guess. anyone can profess
to an absolute morality, but in the end, it’s your actions that counts.

You’re absolutely right! But to say that there is no possibility of there being an absolute morality because it can be “breached” (that one can act contrary to it) is an absurdity.

How does my having free will to be bad negate there being an absolute morality?

maybe if we focused more on our “operating morality”
and not so much on the professed “absolute morality” the
world would be a better place.

“Focused on”? What do you mean? Are you saying that we should actually DO what we profess as our absolute moral code says to do would be a good thing?

Well, how can one DO what one’s absolute moral code says to do if one isn’t ALLOWED to HAVE an absolute set of morals?

How can one have absolute morals if they can’t exist (according to you)?

some of us don’t believe in the after life so there is no
point in trying to survive eternaly. i don’t know about
u guys, but i find life is pretty precious.

We see it as extremely precious, but not MORE precious that doing good and not doing evil.

The problem with the (true) relativist is that he’ll trade ANYTHING for continued life in this world in exchange, including doing massive evil.

i guess the difference here then is that some of us
don’t do “good” so that we can get into heaven.
we don’t need the carrot stick of eternal life,
10000 virgins, etc. to know compassion.
compassion and not wanting to see others suffer
comes from the heart, not a book.

We don’t do good to get into heaven. We get into heaven by choosing doing good over doing evil, and we, unlike the (true) relativist, know what good is and what evil is.

Heaven is not a reward. It is a result, and a result we can’t possibly deserve but might well be given anyway.

Why DOES an atheist (relativist) do good? Is it more important to do good, or to have life?

 

[Lisa44]

compassion and not wanting to see others suffer
comes from the heart, not a book.

Thats a relativistic idea: ‘everyone gets wisdom from their own hearts’. And everyone’s heart tells them something different. Therefore, there is no wisdom that doesn’t come from every person in every situation…

In short, there is no truth.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Thats a relativistic idea: ‘everyone gets wisdom from their own hearts’. And everyone’s heart tells them something different. Therefore, there is no wisdom that doesn’t come from every person in every situation…

In short, there is no truth.

[Edited]

“Wisdom comes not from the heart, but from fear of the Lord”

And thereby, [edited], I refute you!

 

[Lisa44]

[Edited]

“Wisdom comes not from the heart, but from fear of the Lord”

And thereby, [edited], I refute you!

Wisdom comes from God.

Was my post unclear?
I was trying to show the fallacy that wisdom comes from the heart. Not say that I believed it did. If one believed wisdom came from the heart than there is not objective truth outside of everyone’s subjective experience. And hense no truth.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Lisa

*Wisdom comes from God. *

Agreed. But wisdom comes from God through the heart. The brain is often stupid on its own. The wisdom of right morality comes from the heart of God straight into our own hearts. In
Catholic ethics it’s called the natural law. God planted that law in all of us. That is why the world over murder, theft, rape, homosexuality, etc. are viewed as instrinsically wrong acts. Even atheists acknowledge certain acts as evil. God plants in us all the intrinsic knowledge of objective good and evil.

What we then proceed to do is try to talk ourselves (individually or collectively) out of that objective instinct for for knowing right and wrong. In other words, it is the head that is at the source of our corruption. Notice how Adam and Eve knew not to eat the forbidden fruit … until they were persuaded by the serpent’s logic that to eat the fruit was actually good for them rather than bad. They had only one commandment to keep, and they managed to reason themselves out of keeping it.

Ah, man’s presumptuous brain! Always the source of our confusion and our damnation.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Lisa

*Wisdom comes from God. *

Agreed. But wisdom comes from God through the heart.

The brain is often stupid on its own.

I know mine is, every single time what comes from it isn’t checked against the Church (Magisterium)!

I used to be very masterfully stupid. Now I’m much preferably utterly ignorantly stupid. I’d much rather be going in the right direction very very slowly than making huge progress in the wrong direction.

But then, that’s the opinion of a self-described ignorant moron, so be v e r y™ c a r e f u l³ doing anything with it!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

CatsAndDogs

We have two dogs but no cats. I could never outrun or outhink a cat.

I*'d much rather be going in the right direction very very slowly than making huge progress in the wrong direction.*

I know what you mean … as in making nuclear weapons …

 

[CatsAndDogs]

We have two dogs but no cats.

I could never outrun or outhink a cat.

I don’t like cats, for more than 4 minutes and 37 seconds.

I’m not convinced they HAVE a “thinker”. They react too well to have one, I think!

If they were persons, they’d all be saints. But since they’re not persons, they’re all fuzzy little sneeze-makers.

 

[Lisa44]

Lisa

*Wisdom comes from God. *

Agreed. But wisdom comes from God through the heart. The brain is often stupid on its own. The wisdom of right morality comes from the heart of God straight into our own hearts. In
Catholic ethics it’s called the natural law. God planted that law in all of us. That is why the world over murder, theft, rape, homosexuality, etc. are viewed as instrinsically wrong acts. Even atheists acknowledge certain acts as evil. God plants in us all the intrinsic knowledge of objective good and evil.

What we then proceed to do is try to talk ourselves (individually or collectively) out of that objective instinct for for knowing right and wrong. In other words, it is the head that is at the source of our corruption. Notice how Adam and Eve knew not to eat the forbidden fruit … until they were persuaded by the serpent’s logic that to eat the fruit was actually good for them rather than bad. They had only one commandment to keep, and they managed to reason themselves out of keeping it.

Ah, man’s presumptuous brain! Always the source of our confusion and our damnation.

Hi Charlemagne,

Homosexuality the world over is viewed as an intrinsically wrong act? Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of gay people and supporters of their lifestyles.

“God plants in us all the intrinsic nature of good and evil.” Witness people who don’t believe evil exists. Witness people who believe its ok to commit a crime to make money…witness people who think casual sex is ok…

I would say that the ONLY way we know right from wrong, is BECAUSE of God’s revelation to us.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I would say that the ONLY way we know right from wrong, is BECAUSE of God’s revelation to us.

Then how, before Moses, did anyone know what was right and what was wrong?

Besides, the natural law is God’s revelation to our hearts, as opposed to our heads.

Homosexuality the world over is viewed as an intrinsically wrong act? Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of gay people and supporters of their lifestyles.

Throughout the history of the world societies have tolerated homosexuality. We should not confuse their toleration with their supposed approval. After all, in this country most people tolerate abortion, yet most people do not approve of it. That is to say, they don’t think it’s really right to kill children. Likewise, most people don’t think that nature’s law is that men should marry men and women should marry women. As a matter of fact, in the modern era we have outdone the ancient Roman and the Greeks in approaching the tolerance of such unions.