Religion of peace?? Please explain.

[Ed_Rand]

(note: Vietcong is a racist term we applied to them. The called themselves the National Liberation Front and they had led a succesful nationalist revolt against the French and our government knew at that time that they held the allegiance of a vast majority of the population. This is why we lost. After we completely destroyed the place and left a minefield of unexploded cluster bombs all over Southeast Asia which are still killing and maiming people to this day. not to mention Agent Orange and the high percentage of infants born with deformities.)

We could debate history for quite a while. But there is an argument among historians about whether the facts of history can teach us morality and thus show us a better way. I say no. It is our religion that teaches us right and wrong. So lets get down to the nitty-gritty…

First off, what did you intend these verses to prove? That it is okay to participate in aggressive war according to the Gospel?

1 Corinthians 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul is telling a church to kick out a man who was having relations with his mother. I know it well. To me, it is one of the most optimistic verses in the New Testament. It also seems to confirm purgatory. In no way does it relate to the cruel things that you and others have said on this thread.

*2 Timothy 3:8 *

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

Your point?

*Hebrews 4:12 *

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This verse is comparing the Word to a sword. You have been advocating the sword in opposition to what has been commanded you in the Word.

Not all of us are destined for sainthood or martyrdom. Some of us have families, churches and communities that depend on us. We don’t have the luxury of abandoning our responsibilities.

Your first responsibility is to God, friend. And if you are teaching your family and friends the same that you have been trying to teach on this thread, then you are neglecting your responsibility to Him. Trust me, not everyone in your church and community feels like you do. The sad fact is that they are probably afraid to speak the Truth because your side is the gov. side, and there is a lot of intimidation in this country.

Amos 9:2

2 “ Though they dig into hell,
From there My hand shall take them;
Though they climb up to heaven,
From there I will bring them down;

Good verse. Although again, I fail to see your point. Unless you are claiming that the US military is the hand of God…

And no, I don’t accept being a “Bad Christian” lightly. But we are all sinners. And the worst of us are pious hypocrites also.

Yes, we are all sinners. I do despicable, ungodly things sometimes. But I can point to them and correct them and I urge others against them. “If that makes me a bad Christian, then so be it” were your words. If you accept that your ideals are decidedly un-Christian, why would you not repent and instead try to teach others your folly?

Also, you do not know me so how can I be a hypocrite?

The Gospel is NOT a suicide pact.

Show me where it teaches what you have taught on this thread.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for
righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because
of righteousness
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

All this hatred for Islam and Muslims, yet your views are advocated throughout the Qur’an.

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand

 

[rpp]

(note: Vietcong is a racist term we applied to them. The called themselves the National Liberation Front and they had led a succesful nationalist revolt against the French and our government knew at that time that they held the allegiance of a vast majority of the population. This is why we lost. After we completely destroyed the place and left a minefield of unexploded cluster bombs all over Southeast Asia which are still killing and maiming people to this day. not to mention Agent Orange and the high percentage of infants born with deformities.)

We could debate history for quite a while. But there is an argument among historians about whether the facts of history can teach us morality and thus show us a better way. I say no. It is our religion that teaches us right and wrong. So lets get down to the nitty-gritty…

First off, what did you intend these verses to prove? That it is okay to participate in aggressive war according to the Gospel?

Paul is telling a church to kick out a man who was having relations with his mother. I know it well. To me, it is one of the most optimistic verses in the New Testament. It also seems to confirm purgatory. In no way does it relate to the cruel things that you and others have said on this thread.

Your point?

This verse is comparing the Word to a sword. You have been advocating the sword in opposition to what has been commanded you in the Word.

Your first responsibility is to God, friend. And if you are teaching your family and friends the same that you have been trying to teach on this thread, then you are neglecting your responsibility to Him. Trust me, not everyone in your church and community feels like you do. The sad fact is that they are probably afraid to speak the Truth because your side is the gov. side, and there is a lot of intimidation in this country.

Good verse. Although again, I fail to see your point. Unless you are claiming that the US military is the hand of God…

Yes, we are all sinners. I do despicable, ungodly things sometimes. But I can point to them and correct them and I urge others against them. “If that makes me a bad Christian, then so be it” were your words. If you accept that your ideals are decidedly un-Christian, why would you not repent and instead try to teach others your folly?

Also, you do not know me so how can I be a hypocrite?

Show me where it teaches what you have taught on this thread.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for
righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because
of righteousness
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

All this hatred for Islam and Muslims, yet your views are advocated throughout the Qur’an.

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand

Off topic.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Off topic.

Was the point of this topic to point out the sawdust in their eye while ignoring the plank in our own? Please don’t try to quash this discussion. This is the heart of the issue.

 

[A_Sombra]

QUOTE:Every event that happens in the muslim world is maginified to catastrophic proportion

How can events such as thousands of Muslims being killed by other Muslims because they are not “radical” enough be “magnified”?

And, outside the Muslimworlkd-how can events such a 9/11 be “magnified”?

The Muslim extremists have ruined it for “peaceful” Muslims-and, sad to say, the “peaceful” Muslims too often HAVE NOT totally denounced the actionsof the extremists! If you dont denounce the extemists, it makes you look like you agree with them-period!

I do not want to end up being killed by a bomb set off by Muslim exremists; I do not want to live under Sharia in a Muslim country; I do not want to be yet another Christian persecuted by Muslims. You want all the “exaggeration” against Muslims to stop? Then work to STOP the above!

AND Muslim persecution of Christians is NOTHING NEW-if you want a litany, let me know, and I would be glad to recite it!

Maybe I could ask you about this-The USA saved the Saudis from being taken over andbasically enslaved by Saddam Hussein-US Forces personnel entering Saudi Arabia to save the Saudis ***es were WARNED not to wear a cross or carry a Bible into Saudi Årabia with them. This is ridiculous-AND what would Muslims do if the USA told Muslims entering this country-NO KORANS ALLOWED! Muslims would scream blpoody murder, and some would no doubt BOMB something, or a lot of somethings! So, you know, when Muslims want to act like they are part of the human race, and abide by the laws accepted by all civilized nations-maybe then there wont be any more “discrimination” against Muslims!

ALSO-tell me how Muslims are “discriminated” against HERE IN THE USA vs. how Muslioms diocriminate against Christians in Muslim countries-Christians can show no open signs of their faith-if they do so, they can have terrible thinghs happen to them-Coptic Christians in Egypt are persecuted terribly-some are murdered-not much is done about it-and Muslims in the USA want to WHINE-about just exactly what, can I ask?

AND-if the USA is “The Great Satan,” and is so terrible-why are you here? If you dont like it, youcan go back to your Muslim country, cant you? OH-but if you are a Sunni Muslim from a Shiite country, MUSLIMS will persecute YOU when you go back; if you are a Shiite Muslim from a Sunni country, Sunni MUSLIMS will persecute you when you go back-what can I say? Other than, its a tough world out there, huh?

 

[wth1257]

Well said. Thank you. Completely factually correct and accurately stated.

This reminds me of the the movie, The Mission with Jeremy Iron and Robert DeNiro. That was a movie about Jesuit priests who tried to stop the slaughter of non-Christian (Freemasons actually) Portuguese "colonists. It correctly shows the Christians as defenders of the innocent.

Was that before or after the Cardinal allowed the enslavement of the people?

 

[R_not]

QUOTE:
The Muslim extremists have ruined it for “peaceful” Muslims-and, sad to say, the “peaceful” Muslims too often HAVE NOT totally denounced the actionsof the extremists! If you dont denounce the extemists, it makes you look like you agree with them-period!

/QUOTE]

Great post. I just took the part that I would like to expand upon. Because I can hear the disagreements already.

#1. no one of leadership capability in the muslim world denounced the radicals. In fact, most fund them, teach hatred in the mosques and madrassas, and now fund such organizations on our own homeland - CAIR, the MSA (muslim Student ASSOCIATION that is directly connected to the muslim brotherhood), and export imams/clerics to teach wahabbism.

#2. When we did hear denouncements by a ‘muslim on the street’ we heard this statment: ‘muslims do not believe in the killing of innocents, nor do they believe in suicide.’

• well, never did they volunteer to explain that they have alternative definitions - and one of those alternative definitions is ‘innocent’. They believe that only muslims are innocent and infidels are not.
• they also did not volunteer to explain that suicide was ok if the person was trying to, or succeeded in, killing infidels.

here are some alternate definitions that we ALL need to recognize. If one reads the koran, hadiths, and islam’s history - you might already know this:
muslim definitions for words:
peace - death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmittude) for infidels
**peace treaty **- can only last for 10 years and is to be broken at anytime when the muslims are rearmed/regrouped
aggressor - only infidels are aggressors. Any actions (violent) by muslims is their right per the koran
oppressor - only infidels are oppressors if they do not allow themselves to be subjugated by muslims/sharia law
(modern day) Crusader - Christians who figured out what islam is all about and are telling others the facts of islam
honor - following the koran’s teaching on this - and if it includes beating, raping, stoning, hanging, enslavement, - that is ok - it is what the koran says to do and it is considered an honor for women to endure these actions.
Innocent - only muslims are innocent. No infidel is considered to be innocent.

 

[Ed_Rand]

How can events such as thousands of Muslims being killed by other Muslims because they are not “radical” enough be “magnified”?

Oh, that’s their fault, huh? I suppose if someone were to invade the US, dismantle its government and all its security forces, then we would all just get right back together peacefully, huh? This is beyond hypocrisy, sir. We’ve have totally destroyed and upended the lives of so many and now you’re blaming them. Despicable. You should be ashamed.

And, outside the Muslimworlkd-how can events such a 9/11 be “magnified”?

The reason they could call it magnified is because thousands of Muslims go through 9/11 type events in their own back yard everyday because of you and I.

 

[meedo]

Oh, that’s their fault, huh? I suppose if someone were to invade the US, dismantle its government and all its security forces, then we would all just get right back together peacefully, huh? This is beyond hypocrisy, sir. We’ve have totally destroyed and upended the lives of so many and now you’re blaming them. Despicable. You should be ashamed.

The reason they could call it magnified is because thousands of Muslims go through 9/11 type events in their own back yard everyday because of you and I.

Well said.

 

[swariffin]

Oh, that’s their fault, huh? I suppose if someone were to invade the US, dismantle its government and all its security forces, then we would all just get right back together peacefully, huh? This is beyond hypocrisy, sir. We’ve have totally destroyed and upended the lives of so many and now you’re blaming them. Despicable. You should be ashamed.

The reason they could call it magnified is because thousands of Muslims go through 9/11 type events in their own back yard everyday because of you and I.

Not me, for sure.

 

[wth1257]

Not me, for sure.

East Timor?

 

[R_not]

Oh, that’s their fault, huh? I suppose if someone were to invade the US, dismantle its government and all its security forces, then we would all just get right back together peacefully, huh? This is beyond hypocrisy, sir. We’ve have totally destroyed and upended the lives of so many and now you’re blaming them. Despicable. You should be ashamed.

The reason they could call it magnified is because thousands of Muslims go through 9/11 type events in their own back yard everyday because of you and I.

It isn’t our fault that they train jihadist and blow each other up and also blow us up. sorry, I am just not buying this sob story that the muslims are the victims. When they are out slaughtering Christians in Africa, southeast Asia, Bosnia/Kosovo, lebanon, and Jews in Israel, and Hindus in India, and Buddhists in Southeast Asia - I am just not buying this boohoo story, or that we are the problem.

I know that I am going to get the response of ‘I have read the koran and hadiths and know about mohammed and islam’s violent history both past and present… blah blah blah’ But I am going to post it anyway - you really need to read these things and you will know why they are in a never ending war. (gee, a great book to read is called just that ‘A Never Ending War’, by Michael Cappi) And it has nothing to do with the West, with the Jews, with whatever you, and the muslims, give as excuses.

They divide the world into two realms (gee, sounds pretty fascist to me!) the realm of war (dar al harb - which is our land, or any land not under sharia law) and the realm of islam (dar al islam). And when they are in dar al harb they are told to wage jihad. Jihad has many tactics - of which one is deception. ‘War is deception’, mohammed. Other tactics of jihad are terror and intimidation to create fear, immigration, uncontrolled birth rates (basically build up the muslim numbers in the countries they migrate to), infiltrate, demand us appease them and their ‘religion’, act as the victims, blame others for their own faults, etc.

Muslim responses to unpleasant Islamic facts:
islam-watch.org/Others/Muslim-Responses-to-Unpleasant-Islamic-Facts.htm

These people follow their prophet’s teachings and mohammed fought in over 35 of the 80 battles and razas (raids) during his own time. His first battle against the Quraysh - he beheaded over 700 men and boys (who had hair) and stole all the possession, and enslaved and passed around as booty all the women and children - to be used as they wished. And this is why slavery is also sanctioned and practiced in islam to this very day.

Slavery in islam: answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

this is also why muslims will marry 9 year olds - because their prophet did that and sanctioned it.

I know you won’t read these websites - it sounds like you have a mindset, or you are a muslim. But, it is there for others to read.

 

[swariffin]

East Timor?

I am a catholic. They were my brothers in Christ, and we are caressed by the same Mary mother of Jesus. For heaven sake, I am glad that they finally get their independence. And please help the Australian who is assisting them. We share the same pain as our Catholic churches were stormed and forced to be closed. They established the law that we are required to ask the permission from the surrounding neighbor when we want to build a church. Basically, such requirement is very hard although not impossible to fulfill in a majority muslim community. But, in the area where the majority is Christian, and the same law applied to them when they want to build a mosque, they cried for injustice. So, the law which is supposed to be carried to anyone on the same basis is applied on selective basis. But, don’t blame them. Indonesia is not an Islamic country, just Islam majority country. The peaceful face of Muslim does exist but on a selective basis, especially on the educated people. The uneducated muslims tend to follow what the radical muslims all over the world. The problem is, the uneducated muslims are plenty, easy to be misled, easily run amok, and hold the power when the election come. Thanks to the American who forced democracy too soon in this democrazy country.

 

[R_not]

A good article was just written today explaining in the author’s way to explain why non-Muslims aren’t responsible for violent Muslim rage.

frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=914564F5-1EBF-4FF5-A124-24B78C6111C2

 

[Ed_Rand]

East Timor?

excellent fn point!!! Although I doubt most people know what you’re talking about.

 

[Ed_Rand]

It isn’t our fault that they train jihadist and blow each other up and also blow us up. sorry, I am just not buying this sob story that the muslims are the victims.

The violence in Iraq is not our fault? You’ll have a lot of trouble explaining that.

 

[R_not]

The violence in Iraq is not our fault? You’ll have a lot of trouble explaining that.

Why don’t you start by trying to explain Hussein and the Baathists. Or that al qaeda was there before we entered there. Or that the Iranians just hop on over and kill.

Don’t even start with the stuff that we are the cause of them being there. It doesn’t wash. Our guys have unearthed mass graves, walked in on the after effects of mass executions of whole families.

al qaeda in Iraq, saudi pushing wahabbism and also planted many imams in USA mosques

frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=610693BA-4E49-4B2F-9837-B552C3D54A6C

Mar 24, 2008 – Al Qaeda in Iraq more extensive than previously thought

online.wsj.com/article/SB120631495290958169.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

I think tha the short memories of people like you do indeed serve your purposes. Your agenda is what though? Is it ignorance, or a lack of will to find what the truth is, or just a blind acceptance of the Democrats/left? What is it?

 

[R_not]

I am a catholic. They were my brothers in Christ, and we are caressed by the same Mary mother of Jesus. For heaven sake, I am glad that they finally get their independence. And please help the Australian who is assisting them. We share the same pain as our Catholic churches were stormed and forced to be closed. They established the law that we are required to ask the permission from the surrounding neighbor when we want to build a church. Basically, such requirement is very hard although not impossible to fulfill in a majority muslim community. But, in the area where the majority is Christian, and the same law applied to them when they want to build a mosque, they cried for injustice. So, the law which is supposed to be carried to anyone on the same basis is applied on selective basis. But, don’t blame them. Indonesia is not an Islamic country, just Islam majority country. The peaceful face of Muslim does exist but on a selective basis, especially on the educated people. The uneducated muslims tend to follow what the radical muslims all over the world. The problem is, the uneducated muslims are plenty, easy to be misled, easily run amok, and hold the power when the election come. Thanks to the American who forced democracy too soon in this democrazy country.

I don’t totally buy it that the peaceful ones are among the educated ones. We have found in our own country that they are just as much in a jihad as the violent ones. islam’s main activity that muslims are to do is wage jihad. And if they don’t want to be violent then they are to support the violent ones, hence muslim charities, taqiyya/kithman, jihadists hide among them, etc. The infiltration in our schools (the MSA which is directly tied to the muslim brotherhood and funded by the wahabbi saudis), and their getting their fairy tales of islam in our kid’s history books in many states - and I am sure they are trying for all the states. And no major outcry from the ACLU - why? They are probably getting saudi funds too - I can’t find proof of that yet though.

Many in our country have been captured as jihadists - doctors, lawyers, CAIR is full of them with associations with terrorists - wahabbism/saudis and the muslim brotherhood.

And they have successfully waged jihad in other countries - before the bad violence starts - countries such as lebanon, Africa, etc have all experienced the so called peaceful muslims - then their numbers increase and the violence starts.

What you find in the educated areas of - say, Pakistan - are ‘honor killings’, and also the radicalization of those so called peaceful ones by the wahabbis. Pakistan is saudi arabia’s jihad training ground. The saudis don’t want it in their backyard so fund it in pakistan. (the book ‘The Dark Princes’ goes into this)

 

[A_Sombra]

Muslims go through 9/11 type things everyday because of ME?

I sincerely dount that-you wanna explain how that is, or just make accusations you cant back up?

Shiites and Sunnis were killing maiming and mutilating each other before the United States existed; Muslims were killing mutilating maiming and enslaving Christians before the United States existed!

I cannot help but laugh when an African American says “Islam is a black man’s religion”-Muslims were killing mutilating maiming enslaving and forcibly converting Africans before the United States existed, AND who do you think most of the “Slave Traders” who sold millions of Africans to be sailed into slavery in the United States were? MUSLIMS, thats who!

And I suppose all of the above is also the fault of the US and those who l ive there, even though the US didnt exist yet when these things happened, right? I wouldnt doubt it!

In fact, the mass killings that are considered the first historical “genocide” of the 20th century, and the one that inspired Hitler to attempt to wipe out the Jews was the Muslim genocide against the Armenians in the early 20th century! And believe me, the Armenians were both innocent of any wrongdoing against the Muslim Ottoman Turks, as well as completely unable to mount any kind of defense against the savages who murdered them.

“Peaceful religion?” PUHLEEEEEESE-you will NEVER ocnvince me-especially if you want to keep denying history, and keep making two sets of rules-one for Mohammedans, one for “infidels”!

 

[Ed_Rand]

Why don’t you start by trying to explain Hussein and the Baathists.

I already did earlier on this thread. I made some good points that no one addressed. Here it is again:

As for Saddam and what he has done… The modern state of Iraq was drawn together by the British empire. It is composed of many people who are not fond of each other. In order to control Iraq, he had to instill fear into all. Our own govenment documents from the 80’s admit that while Saddam had done some horrible things, he was a secular leader who had brought stability to one of the most volatile nations on Earth. Saddam was convicted and executed for the killing of many people in a village in which there was an assassination plot against him (in the 80’s, when we were his #1 supporters). What would Andrew Jackson have done if he found out that a certain group of Indians had attempted his assassination? My point is that all states are founded and maintained by violence. How bout the new Iraqi government? Torturing, kidnapping, etc. same ol stuff. It looks like al-Sadr may be one of the most powerful men in the new Iraq. Say what you will of Saddam, but he did a better job controlling the place than we have. And with much less to work with.

Or that the Iranians just hop on over and kill.

sort of like how we hop over the ocean and kill.

I think tha the short memories of people like you do indeed serve your purposes.

My short memory? Have you ever heard of an Iranian leader named Mossadegh? His democratic government was overthrown with help from the CIA. And then the US propped up the brutal Shah dictatorship that terrorized the Iranian people for 30 years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh

Here are some of the numerous relevant declassified CIA documents that show the details of what happened:

gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

Just search “Mossadeq”

Your agenda is what though? Is it ignorance, or a lack of will to find what the truth is, or just a blind acceptance of the Democrats/left? What is it?

The Truth is not in all your silly little weblinks. Nor is the Truth in any of my weblinks. The Truth is taught to us in the Gospels friend, and it is decidedly different than what you are trying to teach here.

I only look to the news for facts. I interpret these facts in light of the Gospels. This is my “agenda”. Like I said to Arbito,
You have all this hatred for Islam and Muslims, yet your views are advocated throughout the Qur’an. And not in the Gospels which you claim to believe in.

PS: It is a good tactic for you to keep regurgitating the fact that there are so many Muslims who are full of hatred and rage, because when we begin to examine our own actions in light of what we are taught by Christ Jesus, your “agenda” and your rationalizations mean nothing. As I said before,

If your eye itches, pull out the plank.

 

[A_Sombra]

If you want to become a martyr, buy a ticket for Saudi Arabia, sneak to Mecca (non Muslims are not allwoed there, thank you!)
when all the Hajjis (pilgrims) are running around the stone building that contains an ancent pagan idol (the kaaba and the balck stone), stop, and start screaming out that Mohammed is a false prophet, and that you worship Christ as God, not the false god of the false prophet Mohammed. I GUARANTEE you will get our wish!