Religion of peace?? Please explain.

[Lapell]

Hi Lapell What makes you think that Chouraqui’s version is more authentic than those by Yusufali, Pickthal, and Shakir, for instance?

Vickie

I don’t know those versions. But after Robert De Kenton’s latin version – completed in 1147–(which according to Chouraqui was deliberately biased) the early translations after that one followed it, and also the first dictionaries from Arabic to our languages were based on these early versions of the Qur’an. And so even when the further translations were not of the same spirit as De Kenton’s, they had to use dictionaries… It doesn’t make what Muhammad said about Jesus entirely right, though, but Chouraqui assure us that nothing in the original text of the Qur’an, when put in proper context (and Chouraqui also published commentaries on the Coranic texts, not just his translation!), NOTHING IN IT is an invitation to alter anyone of the Ten Commandments of the Torah! Of course to those who are not aware of the subtleties of the Arabic language of Muhammad’s time, there are many verses which could be thought to mean a breach allowed to some of the Commandments. That is quite something else…

 

[Lapell]

gemmarose,do you know that what muslims think about the tragedy of 9/11?they think that its a jew conspiracy!!what a terrible false blame against those peace loving ppl jew(ya i believe that jews were always peace loving).so its clear that muslims are not peace loving though they shout that they are only peace loving.quran has many verses that taught killing violence and hate to non muslims.but some muslims deny it by editing quran.

Justa minute, morning_star777! Who spread this idea first? I don’t think it was shared by all Muslims! Also, it think it was false rumour spread by extremists who CLAIMED to be Muslims. They might as well all be like Hitler who claimed he was still a Catholic, even though he had stopped going to Mass years, even decades ago and despised all Catholic priests and bishops… and pope! Not exactly a genuine Catholic there!

 

[Lapell]

finally i want to say quran just taught killing non muslims,violence,polygamy(for men),not to take any non muslims as friend etc.quran has many historical&scientific error;we gave many verses as reference in other threads but muslims tried to explain it in their own way by editing quran.so i will never repeat those verses again in near future.but its true that islam just taught hate&killing.and muslims are succesfully doing those.

Who was the translator in that one version you’re talking about? This is important, I can assure you!

 

[Lapell]

some Muslims claim that you are not supposed to use violence unless attacked in your religion. Am not sure who attacked Muslims during all those futuhat lead by the khalifs after Muhammad’s death to conquer and subdue non-muslims, but for arguments’ sake, let us accept this claim…what is an attck to your faith? a satire about Muhammad? cartoon about Muhammad? not allowing you to practice sharia in non-Islamic lands?

Or was it a caliph more interested in power and enjoining it and who wouldn’t mind twisting the actual meaning of some or many verses of the original text of the Qur’an to justify his misbehaviour and his crimes? couldn’t IT be possible?

 

[R_not]

Justa minute, morning_star777! Who spread this idea first? I don’t think it was shared by all Muslims! Also, it think it was false rumour spread by extremists who CLAIMED to be Muslims. They might as well all be like Hitler who claimed he was still a Catholic, even though he had stopped going to Mass years, even decades ago and despised all Catholic priests and bishops… and pope! Not exactly a genuine Catholic there!

It is spread by even those ‘moderates’ that are on our shores and other’s shores. The muslims on our shores claimed that it was the Jews who were dancing in the streets - on our own shores and it turned out to be the muslims themselves who did this act - all over our, and other’s lands.

The first thing that muslims do is blame someone else - the West, the Jews (it is their favorite), etc.

The words ‘moderate’ and ‘radical’ our own words - that we hope muslims are contained in. It is not a muslim’s description.

Italian writer Oriana Fallaci, said: “A moderate Islam does not exist. It does not exist because there is no difference between Good Islam and Bad Islam. There is Islam and that it the end of it. Islam is the Koran, and nothing other than the Koran.“
(Oriana Fallaci”The Force of Reason” post-script page 305 February 2006)]
Wise and true words.

And yes, there are muslims who are poor muslims, meaning that they are not practicing muslims. The problem there is that radicalization can happen at any time, or their progeny can become radicalized (once again - our words/descriptions of muslims). The whole problem with all of this is the base teachings, the base directives that come from the koran and hadiths.

Muslims can pick and chose which passages they post to us - but we mostly don’t realize that so many passages of the Meccan period were abrogated (replaced) by the Medina passages which are the violent passages.

They tell us what we want to hear most of the time and when we don’t buy into it - they call us names, etc. No leader - which means in islam that clerics, imams, ayatollahs, etc (which ever sect of islam they are depends on what they call their leaders) - have not done anything to stop the violence, to take on the fact that the koran and hadiths are the source of the problem that promotes the violence worldwide. It is so easy to write about the violence without realizing the toll it takes on our fellow human beings. When I think about it - it makes me cry. But, I am supposed to think of not offending muslims while their own koran, and hadiths, are the source for all this human tragedy worldwide.

 

[R_not]

Here are some articles on ‘moderates’ that I found intriguing:

If moderate muslims is a truth, then why are these the facts: islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/05/its-only-fewthats-what-they-keep.html

jihadwatch.org/archives/010776.php Defining the moderate Muslim

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009904.php Moderates still elusive

jihadwatch.org/archives/004034.php 10 Things to Think When Thinking of Muslim moderates

Here is an interesting letter from a guy who we call a ‘moderate’. sheikhharon.com/No%20Radical,%20No%20Moderate,%20Just%20Muslim.htm We do not have “radical” and “moderate” in Islam we only have islam

Who is being honest? A radical or a ‘moderate’?
amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=2

I got this from a newsletter and 10 questions that a ‘moderate’ can answer to see if he/she is indeed a moderate. (the problem I have is that deception is fully allowed in islam so I don’t know if I totally trust even this.)

Dr. Tawfik Hamid, a former member of a terrorist organization who is now dedicated to reforming Islam, has written a book entitled “Inside Jihad.” We have had the privilege of receiving a pre-publication copy of the book and in reviewing it we enthusiastically recommend it to you once it is released.

In one section of the book he spells out what he calls the “Radical Islam Support Test,” or “RIST.” Instead of our settling for tepid, generic “condemnations” of terrorism by Muslims and Muslim organizations that purport to be “mainstream” and “moderate,” it would be more illuminating to see how such Muslims respond to the questions contained in the “RIST.”

Granted, thanks to the doctrine of taqiyya, one can never be sure if the Muslim respondent is telling the truth or being deceptive in order to advance the cause of Islam. But it is our opinion that generic denunciations of terrorism are virtually meaningless and meritless so long as the person issuing such denunciations holds to underlying radical principles.

Remember, these are questions to ask a Muslim who professes to oppose terrorism and radical Islam.

“Apostates”: Do you support killing them? Should leaving the faith of Islam be punishable by death?

“Beating Women”: Is beating women ever acceptable, and if not, do you reject those decrees of Islamic law that sanction the beating of women? Do you also accept stoning women to death for committing adultery?

“Calling Jews pigs and monkeys”: Do you believe that Jews are in any way sub-human and if not, do you reject Quranic interpretations that claim they are?

“Declaring holy war”: Do you support declaring war against non-Muslims to subjugate them to Islam? Do you believe that it is fair and reasonable to offer non-Muslims three options: Conversion, Paying the Jizya, or Death?

“Enslavement”: Do you support the enslavement of female war prisoners and having sex with them as concubines? If not, do you reject those interpretations in Islamic Law, for “Ma-Malkakat Aymanikum”, which justifies such actions?

“Fighting Jews”: Do you support perpetual war against Jews to exterminate them, and if not, should those Muslims who incite such war be punished?

“Gays”: Do you believe it is acceptable to kill gays, and if not, do you reject those edicts in Sharia Law which claim it is?

 

[Lapell]

It is spread by even those ‘moderates’ that are on our shores and other’s shores. The muslims on our shores claimed that it was the Jews who were dancing in the streets - on our own shores and it turned out to be the muslims themselves who did this act - all over our, and other’s lands.(QUOTE)
Was it they who started the rumour? Moreover, you seem to imply it was ALL of them…

Italian writer Oriana Fallaci, said

what makes you believe he’s very reliable,R_not?

 

[Lapell]

Also,you know, there is nothing for a group of liars as unsuspecting people who believe their lies and spread them. These people are sincere, and so more people believe THEM, more than they would the original liars…

 

[Lapell]

I am afraid my previous choice of colour kind of makes my post then hard to read. Sorry!

 

[Ed_Rand]

some Muslims claim that you are not supposed to use violence unless attacked in your religion. Am not sure who attacked Muslims during all those futuhat lead by the khalifs after Muhammad’s death to conquer and subdue non-muslims, but for arguments’ sake, let us accept this claim…what is an attck to your faith? a satire about Muhammad? cartoon about Muhammad? not allowing you to practice sharia in non-Islamic lands?

Yeah, those could be considered an attack. In some crazy way, they also might consider it an attack on their faith when a Jewish nation is actively trying to eliminate a portion of them. They also might consider it an attack when a Christian nation invades their lands with the most powerful military force that has ever been assembled on the face of the Earth and forcefully chages their societies. I know its crazy, but I think this might be where their coming from.

 

[morning_star777]

Who was the translator in that one version you’re talking about? This is important, I can assure you!

in my house there are 4 quran,3 versions of tafsir,that translated by a muslim organization named islamic foundation bangladesh.i have also a salafi version of tafsir named taf himul quran that translated by a salafist leader,maududi.so atleast any jew didn’t translate my quran.hope you can guess it

 

[Booklover]

I don’t know those versions. But after Robert De Kenton’s latin version – completed in 1147–(which according to Chouraqui was deliberately biased) the early translations after that one followed it, and also the first dictionaries from Arabic to our languages were based on these early versions of the Qur’an. And so even when the further translations were not of the same spirit as De Kenton’s, they had to use dictionaries… It doesn’t make what Muhammad said about Jesus entirely right, though, but Chouraqui assure us that nothing in the original text of the Qur’an, when put in proper context (and Chouraqui also published commentaries on the Coranic texts, not just his translation!), NOTHING IN IT is an invitation to alter anyone of the Ten Commandments of the Torah! Of course to those who are not aware of the subtleties of the Arabic language of Muhammad’s time, there are many verses which could be thought to mean a breach allowed to some of the Commandments. That is quite something else…

You may continue to believe in this, but ask any ex-Muslim and they’ll tell you that the Quran is a manual of hatred.

Here’s one for you:

Iranian ex-Muslim Amil Imani:

The life manual of Islam, the Quran, is a document of exclusion, hatred and violence that shapes the Muslims’ thinking and behaving. This stone-age document is optimally suited for people of stunted development. People who prefer to follow than to think for themselves, to hate than to love, and to seek death rather than to celebrate life.


Vickie

 

[morning_star777]

I don’t think it was shared by all Muslims! Also, it think it was false rumour spread by extremists who CLAIMED to be Muslims.

how many muslim you have seen dear lapell?how many muslim live in canada?once i told you something via PM so don’t want to repeat.but remember i live in bangladesh.i saw many muslims.but believe me u can’t even imagine what is the reall teaching of islam.i know what is nightmare.thank you.

 

[Ed_Rand]

The United States should wake up, and it should wake up now! Muslim organizations here in the United States have spoke of their determination to keep their countrymen and co-religionists coming to this country

So you are from the US. The fact the you and R_not are blaming the violence in Iraq on them is the most despicable thing I’ve read on this whole site yet. It is unfathomable. I imagine that the reason there are not more true Christians refuting you guys is because they’ve given up on you long ago.

Peace be with you.

 

[morning_star777]

how many muslim you have seen dear lapell?how many muslim live in canada?once i told you something via PM so don’t want to repeat.but remember i live in bangladesh.i saw many muslims.but believe me u can’t even imagine what is the reall teaching of islam.i know what is nightmare.thank you.

anyway as an arab,sam_777 also know better than me about nightmare.so pls don’t try to explain me who is real muslim

 

[R_not]

what makes you believe he’s very reliable,R_not?

Wow - that color! thanks for realizing it is a bit hard to read.

anyway, to your question - because of over the 50 books I have read on islamic history - past and present, the koran, the hadiths, several books on mohammed, monitoring numerous websites as for current news, I agree with him.

And with all the articles I have read about ‘moderates’ and knowing about taqiyya/kithman (depends on which sect of islam they belong to) or deception and the behavior of the ‘moderates’ when so many of us directly tell them of the facts of the koran in relation to the current, and past, history - I agree with him.

I wish more of our own would stop appeasing and realize that there is a political, or stealth, jihad going on now in our lands. When I say ‘our’ I am talking of the West - Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia.

All muslims are told to do jihad with the violent kind being the most holy. there are different jihads though - and if they don’t want to do the violent kind then they are to support those who do that - by their charities (at least Bush caught that and started shutting the ones - that he had control to do so - down. I am certain the money still gets to the jihadists though via underground channels. I can’t believe it just dried up.

I have posted many articles, and what books to read, on this jihad that even the so called ‘moderates’ are a part of whether it is by a conscience or unconscience effort. Since part of it is an increasing of their numbers - it can be done without their knowledge.

And as I have written - the whole problem is the koran, and hadiths, themselves.

If you want me to repost all those websites for you to show you the current jihad against us - just let me know.

 

[Booklover]

how many muslim you have seen dear lapell?how many muslim live in canada?once i told you something via PM so don’t want to repeat.but remember i live in bangladesh.i saw many muslims.but believe me u can’t even imagine what is the reall teaching of islam.i know what is nightmare.thank you.

Keep up the good work telling the truth about Islam! Unfortunately, there are many people who have this rosy idea about Islam and want to keep believing it’s true just because they want it to.

Vickie

 

[Ed_Rand]

Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, but he never told us to love that which is evil! Turning the other cheek does not mean that we don’t have the right to defend ourselves from those who want to destroy us and everything we believe in.

The Jews wanted to destroy Jesus and everything He believed. What did He do?

Here is the point. By turning the other cheek and loving our enemy, we can never lose. In fact, this is our power!!!

“No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:37-39

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand

 

[Lapell]

You may continue to believe in this, but ask any ex-Muslim and they’ll tell you that the Quran is a manual of hatred.

Here’s one for you:

Iranian ex-Muslim Amil Imani:

The life manual of Islam, the Quran, is a document of exclusion, hatred and violence that shapes the Muslims’ thinking and behaving. This stone-age document is optimally suited for people of stunted development. People who prefer to follow than to think for themselves, to hate than to love, and to seek death rather than to celebrate life.


Vickie

O.K. … Has this man ever been involved in any translation of the Qur’an? What version did he use to have? The original text, or a translation? Whose?

 

[R_not]

So you are from the US. The fact the you and R_not are blaming the violence in Iraq on them is the most despicable thing I’ve read on this whole site yet. It is unfathomable. I imagine that the reason there are not more true Christians refuting you guys is because they’ve given up on you long ago.

Peace be with you.

Get over it. Since it seems that our news sources are like night and day on who is getting the correct news - I would say that denying the fact that the jihadists are the problem, that they hide behind women and children (as they did in Lebanon - and so many other places - so they can then parade them around while our mainstream media can gobble it up and use it against the Jews and the West in the usual self-hatred tactics - not even finding out that the muslims were lobbing bombs from those people’s houses and then running so the attack killed the innocents and they would come back and parade them around). Now that is disgusting.

As for ‘real’ Christians refuting the facts - that is a pathetic sentence of name calling I have ever witnessed.

This article certainly applies to you:
“What Accounts For The Almost Psychotic Aversion To Knowledge About Islam?”
sheikyermami.com/2007/10/30/%e2%80%9cwhat-accounts-for-the-almost-psychotic-aversion-to-knowledge-about-islam%e2%80%9d/