Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding

[benhur]

Tell him what you believe by all means, but don’t tell him he must believe it.

Hi Brad,

I am wondering if you are bypassing a basic understanding of human nature and children.

Can you really tell a child what you believe without an inherent inference that is the way the child should go also ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

“My religion vs other religion” is a fundamentalist charter. It’s what ISIS does. Believe my truth or be beheaded. There’s a substantial difference between a class which teaches what each religion believes, and one which teaches my religion vs other religions. One gives the student freedom, the other takes it away. One is fine, the other is evil.

Hi i,

What Isis does Isis does. How a Christian, even Christ teaches is how they teach.

As far freedom is concerned , you do realize that truth is not free to be erroneous.

Pretty sure one can study Christianity by itself or in comparison, in an unapologetic, absolute unevil way,fully invoking free will.

Jesus always leaves His narrow way, His narrow teaching, fully up to the individual to embrace.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

Scripture has convicted us of the wrath of God many times.

Please read my blogpost regarding the wrath of God.

threeminuteapologetics.blogspot.com/2016_04_01_archive.html

 

[benhur]

If you don’t understand the difference between maths and morality, then I don’t see much of a prospect for a sensible discussion.

Hi B,

Well, both come from the same Creator. Both can reveal a Spirit world, though some seek explanation without it, putting math and morality in same naturalist world only.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

A child isn’t born believing in any gods, which means they are at that time atheists…

Well…if that’s how you want to define atheists…

that would make rats, centipedes, rocks and bacteria atheists, too.

 

[rcwitness]

Please read my blogpost regarding the wrath of God.

threeminuteapologetics.blogspot.com/2016_04_01_archive.html

Not sure why you addressed this to me?

 

[Bradski]

Hell is the absence of God. Through sin…

I’ve only quoted a few words of your post because it didn’t answer the question I posed. Perhaps you don’t believe that there are degrees of suffering in hell. In which case I might make the rather obvious point that justice is not served by having someone punished for adultery exactly the same (and for all eternity!) as a mass murderer.

Cue: ‘Who can know the mind of God’.

We do practice Infant Baptism for a reason. Though, it’s not because we believe all Children go to hell if they were not Baptized. Yet, there is a promise that they will not go to hell if they are Baptized.

So having the possibility that your child may suffer in hell for eternity is incidental?

I really and honestly do not believe whatsoever that any given Christian actually believes in hell. I’d be baptising the kid the instant it was born. Would any sane person delay even a few minutes?

A child does not come out of the womb making a conscious choice for any religion. They have not reached the age of reason.

That’s something I could have written. In fact, I probably have at some point. Hence my argument that no child can be called an atheist or a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu, until they have reached that age of reason and have made a conscious choice.

Hi Brad,

I am wondering if you are bypassing a basic understanding of human nature and children. Can you really tell a child what you believe without an inherent inference that is the way the child should go also ? Blessings

No, I fully understand the problem inherent in this discussion. At least from the atheist view. It’s in the nature of the difference between, in this example, Christianity, and atheism. The first is active whereas the second could be described as passive.

I presume that you actively practice your faith and if you have children you would naturally include them in that practice, just the same as my parents did with me. Whereas you don’t practice anything being an atheist. There is nothing one does that is required to be an atheist. It’s just a non-belief in gods. Or in God in this instance.

And I do appreciate that my not encouraging my children to share my lack of belief is not the same as you not encouraging your children to follow your faith. It would be nonsensical for me not to expect anyone to pass on an honestly held belief, especially if you thought their immortal soul was at stake.

That said, I would reiterate my statement above that it is incorrect to refer to any child as being Christian (or Muslim or Hindu etc). They are children of Christian (or Muslim or Hindu) parents.

 

[isu]

Okay…so my child is not a Christian but a child of a Christian mother…then my child is also not American but a child of American parents regardless that she was born on a peace of land “owned” by an American Government. Also, now with gender…whatever, my child is a thing with female genitalia not a female. Oh right and with the animal thing happening now too I suppose I should also add that my “thing” which is not a child because that imposes that it is a human…may actually be some animal…so I suppose I should label it as my thing I gave birth too instead of my child otherwise I am branding “it” with all of these labels. Gosh, I guess I should also quit teaching it English, just in case it didn’t want English to its first language or even a language it wanted to learn at all.

Ridiculous.

My child is Christian until she decides otherwise. Am I going to hide other beliefs from her? Lol no. That would be like hiding the fact that poor forms of government exist. How will the child know to fight against any form of dictatorship without knowledge of what it is capable of? Hiding information from your child is no better than China and North Korea keeping their people in the dark. They know what they are doing is wrong, that is why they hide. The truth sets you free. The peoole who have or believe to their core that they know the truth have nothing to hide. Yes even atheist who believe they have the truth will not hide that religion do exist.

Even though I was a craddle christian my family fell away from the faith. We have all since returned after many years of research. My daughter has God given free-will. She will accept or deny God. I will only accept her denial if she does research on the subject, not because some random friend or person on the internet or some fad says to not to believe in god. I will be sad and I will pray for her but I will also accept it as her God given free-will. This is written in the Bible that God gave us free-will to decide if we want His Love or not.

Good day.

 

[rcwitness]

I’ve only quoted a few words of your post because it didn’t answer the question I posed. Perhaps you don’t believe that there are degrees of suffering in hell. In which case I might make the rather obvious point that justice is not served by having someone punished for adultery exactly the same (and for all eternity!) as a mass murderer.

Cue: ‘Who can know the mind of God’.

Yes, I believe there are degrees. Sins have always been regarded as having greater or lesser degrees of offense. For example, Jesus told Pilate that the chief priests were more guilty than himself:

“You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.”

There is the ultimate loss for those sent to hell. That is to be deprived of God. The secondary loss, is the wrath toward the sins on their souls. The secondary loss depends on the deeds of the individual.

So having the possibility that your child may suffer in hell for eternity is incidental?

I really and honestly do not believe whatsoever that any given Christian actually believes in hell. I’d be baptising the kid the instant it was born. Would any sane person delay even a few minutes?

Well, this could open up to a lot of things to consider, and understand. I believe both parents and infant souls can have the desire to Baptize. Having firm intentions to Baptize is no different than an adult candidate for Baptism. We practice a year of adult formation and preparing to receive Baptism on Holy Saturday. We do not hold Baptism as absolutely necessary. It is necessary to seek and receive, but not to the degree that there are no exceptions in cases of desire and martyrdom. Baptism was made for man, not man for Baptism. We shouldn’t get legalistic about it, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Not sure why you addressed this to me?

Because you were the one who brought up the wrath of God.

Remember, one can search the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety for the word “wrath”, and the only thing that pops up is a reference to wrath as a human sin.

 

[rcwitness]

Because you were the one who brought up the wrath of God.

Remember, one can search the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety for the word “wrath”, and the only thing that pops up is a reference to wrath as a human sin.

Does Scripture not count?

 

[PRmerger]

Does Scripture not count?

Of course it counts.

But we are not Calvinists. We are Catholics.

 

[rcwitness]

Of course it counts.

But we are not Calvinists. We are Catholics.

Right.

John 3
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

 

[PRmerger]

Right.

John 3
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Amen!

 

[rcwitness]

Amen!

Glad we agree on Scripture!

 

[inocente]

We do practice Infant Baptism for a reason. Though, it’s not because we believe all Children go to hell if they were not Baptized. Yet, there is a promise that they will not go to hell if they are Baptized.

But you said “The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation”. In which case when that child is old enough to make her own decision, if she decides to reject then she would go to hell.

I think you must be mistaken, and your Church does not teach that, since telling a child she must believe or go to hell can cause emotional harm, and so by definition is child abuse.

*The message in the poster is not a warning to repent to God, and believe that He sent Jesus His Son.

My religion… thank you. May I ask what your thought are, regarding the message in the poster?*

If you’re referring to your post, I think you misspoke. Christ came to set us free, not to make us slaves. There is no freedom in being told we must believe or be tortured forever.

 

[Bradski]

Yes, I believe there are degrees. Sins have always been regarded as having greater or lesser degrees of offense. For example, Jesus told Pilate that the chief priests were more guilty than himself:

“You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.”

There is the ultimate loss for those sent to hell. That is to be deprived of God. The secondary loss, is the wrath toward the sins on their souls. The secondary loss depends on the deeds of the individual.

You keep talking about degrees of punishment but have never said where we can confirm this. It cannot be self imposed because all sinners go to hell unrepentent. The woman who commits adultery and the man who commits mass murder are equally unrepentant.

Where is the justice in having the same pu ishment for these two people?

 

[inocente]

Hi i,

What Isis does Isis does. How a Christian, even Christ teaches is how they teach.

As far freedom is concerned , you do realize that truth is not free to be erroneous.

Pretty sure one can study Christianity by itself or in comparison, in an unapologetic, absolute unevil way,fully invoking free will.

Jesus always leaves His narrow way, His narrow teaching, fully up to the individual to embrace.

Blessings

John 9
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who speaks to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe”; and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Here’s my thought.

In Matt 23 Jesus repeatedly calls those Pharisees hypocrites. They are legalists, they follow the law to the letter “but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence”. If they were blind then they would be conscious of their blindness, and would seek for spiritual light. But they pretend to see, for they think spiritual light is about following rules and not about what is in the heart. And by denying grace, they deny God in the most profound way possible.

So I think we need to be careful about “Christian vs non-Christian is a matter of truth”, because Christ doesn’t look at outward profession of faith, he sees what’s inside us, and may not judge as we would judge.

The Pharisees were a brand. All show, “like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean”. Christ, imho, is against branding.

 

[rcwitness]

But you said “The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation”. In which case when that child is old enough to make her own decision, if she decides to reject then she would go to hell.

Yes, rejection of the Gospel is rejection of salvation.

I think you must be mistaken, and your Church does not teach that, since telling a child she must believe or go to hell can cause emotional harm, and so by definition is child abuse.

Its not accurate to preach the negative, but the hope of the Gospel. I never said its wise to threaten kids with hell. I conveyed the necessity to believe the Gospel (if properly understood) to be saved.Read the new Testament. It’s in there. I’m surprised your Baptist church doesn’t teach this.

If you’re referring to your post, I think you misspoke. Christ came to set us free, not to make us slaves. There is no freedom in being told we must believe or be tortured forever.

I’m referring the the baby being branded image.

 

[Catherinabird]

I really don’t think it is possible to hide your beliefs from your children.

I think it is possible. I don’t really truly know what my parents believe. My sister thought they believed one thing; I thought another.