Religious affections and love for God

[Reformed]

And here we go again. can someone who has been justified ever sin and lose it?

Don’t answer that. It will derail this thread.

It is a basic question

If someone is justified through the blood of Jesus Christ, a redeemed sinner cannot lose that status of adopted child because justification is a free gift to us, but purchased by Jesus Christ on our behalf. We all know that many who profess Jesus Christ fall away. Why is that, because they were never born from above in the first place. Baptismal regneration, altar calls, sinner’s prayers, decisional regeneration can be works of men as compared to God; therefore, they are not always a product of God but by men. So, why do you think people who are baptized, do an altar call, sinners’ prayer fall away later in life? Please study John chapter 6. God is only glorified if Christ rescues all that the Father gave Him to save.

 

[ralphinal]

If someone is justified through the blood of Jesus Christ, a redeemed sinner cannot lose that status of adopted child because justification is a free gift to us, but purchased by Jesus Christ on our behalf. We all know that many who profess Jesus Christ fall away. Why is that, because they were never born from above in the first place. Baptismal regneration, altar calls, sinner’s prayers, decisional regeneration can be work of men as compared to God; therefore, they are not alwasy a product of God but by men. So, why do you think people who are baptized, do an altar call, sinners’ prayer fall away later in life?

Because God never removes our free-will. We are called by Christ to take up our cross and follow him. It would be easy if our faith destroyed the desire in man to sin completely, only leaving us the option of following. However, God wants us to CHOOSE to love him, so we must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[guanophore]

Sure, in the process of sanctification but not in the doctrine of justification.

This stands to reason. It is not possible for a doctrine to cleanse anyone.

If a person who is declared righteous on the basis of Jesus Christ alone is not becoming more righteous or like Christ, then we have to question if that person was ever justified in the first place.

Such a formulation is not consistent with the teaching of the Apostles, in either written or Tradition form.

There is no justification without sanctification. Try this link since the link in the OP isn’t working. It is not the same article, but we need to properly understand our differences to have a good discussion.

banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?1477

If you believed this, you would make an honest effort to understand what Catholics believe. Since you have refused to do that, it seems likely that this will not be a “good discussion”.

Justification is our legal standing before God that is positional only.

Please help me, I cannot find this verse in my bible anywhere!

We are no longer slaves to our old sin nature, but Christ died so we can actually become more and more holy...like Christ, right?

Right.

We can’t be a new creation in Christ positionally if God isn’t making us what we are positionally. Paul always writes this way… the theology as adopted children secured in what God has done for us in Christ…therefore…live like the new creation.

The problem with this is that we are not just “declared” children of God, but actually “made” children of God. I still can’t find the word “postionally”. Is that from the Greek?

BTW…I’m not trying to say that you need to agree with the conclusion of the writer of the link. But, is it accurate in describing what Roman Catholics believe as a Catholic Faith?

No, and it is against the forum rules to post anti-Catholic sites.

 

[Reformed]

Because God never removes our free-will. We are called by Christ to take up our cross and follow him. It would be easy if our faith destroyed the desire in man to sin completely, only leaving us the option of following. However, God wants us to CHOOSE to love him, so we must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

If free will is the final determining factor for our final destiny, God has made us sovereign in salvation. However, the Bible testifies that God is greater than our will to apostate and fall away. Who are you trusting to be saved, your free will ablility assited by God through the sacraments, or in Christ alone to save you? Salvation is a pure sovereign act of God’s sufficient grace to save wretched sinners like me and you to the praise of His glorious grace. Why else would God save His enemies and not just destroy the entire human race like the worldwide flood? Why would God even have a remnant chosen by grace, for what purpose but to manifest His glory through His Son. The cross of Christ is so glorious!

 

[ralphinal]

If free will is the final determining factor for our final destiny, God has made us sovereign in salvation. However, the Bible testifies that God is greater than our will to apostate and fall away. Who are you trusting to be saved, your free will ablility assited by God through the sacraments, or in Christ alone to save you? Salvation is a pure sovereign act of God’s sufficient grace to save wretched sinners like me and you to the praise of His glorious grace. Why else would God save His enemies and not just destroy the entire human race like the worldwide flood? Why would God even have a remnant chosen by grace, for what purpose but to manifest His glory through His Son. The cross of Christ is so glorious!

So, in other words, you cannot ever sin again if you have truly accepted Jesus. It is physically impossible for you to do so.

Or am I missing something?

 

[AshleyBelle]

If someone is justified through the blood of Jesus Christ, a redeemed sinner cannot lose that status of adopted child because justification is a free gift to us, but purchased by Jesus Christ on our behalf. We all know that many who profess Jesus Christ fall away. Why is that, because they were never born from above in the first place. Baptismal regneration, altar calls, sinner’s prayers, decisional regeneration can be works of men as compared to God; therefore, they are not always a product of God but by men. So, why do you think people who are baptized, do an altar call, sinners’ prayer fall away later in life? Please study John chapter 6. God is only glorified if Christ rescues all that the Father gave Him to save.

Reformed, I’d like to offer an analogy.

Think of a little child. When a child is given a gift, freely from his parents, does he always take perfect care of it? Sometimes children are very rough with their gifts. They may throw it around the house, break the pieces, loose the pieces if it was a gift that came with several parts. That doesn’t change the fact that the gift was given freely, and without their own merit.
And as with my own children, even if they mistreat the gifts I freely give them (both physical gifts and non visible gifts, such as my love for them), their treatment of those gifts does not effect my affection for them. However, when they do mistreat their gifts they have very real consequences for that choice.
If my son disobeys, he must spend time in time out. If he tells me a lie or responds to my love in an un-loving way, he must apologize. None of these acts change the love I have for my son, but each of these acts require action on his part to restore his relationship with me.

He can take the gift of mommy and daddy’s love and choose to respond in love, or he can run away, disobey, and refuse our gift. Just as in the story of the prodigal son, he chose to run from his father, the family he had been born into and the love that was offered for him. He ran and turned towards sin. But his father was willing to forgive and accept him when he turned from his ways and returned to his family.

How much more true is this of Christians? We may be born into the family of God through Baptism, but choose to reject that gift of grace by turning away. But if we are willing to return to God, to restore that relationship with him, and strive for a life of grace, we are responding appropriately to God’s free gift. It is not our own efforts that make us worthy of God’ s gift, but it is certainly our efforts and sinful natures that cause us to turn from that gift.

This is why the sacrament of reconcilliation is such a blessing from God! He KNEW from the beginning of time, that even though He would offer himself as salvation for the whole world, that we would fail and choose sin. So, through the sacrament, we have an opportunity to return to God, to choose his grace in faith, by responding to his love, with love. He is able to work through us, as instruments of his love, when we allow ourselves to strive for that state of grace.

Salvation is truly offered to all mankind through Christ, our Lord.  It is up to us, to choose participation in his saving grace, so that He can use us, transform us, to holiness. It is only in choosing to participate in the redemptive work of Christ, that we may serve and be pleasing to  God :)

---

I wanted to add to the analogy
My son has a little brown stuffed puppy that he ALWAYS has to have in order to go to sleep. This puppy was a gift I gave him on his second birthday. He LOVES that puppy so much! He takes his little stuffed friend everywhere. They have played outside together, gone on car rides, rode in the wagon, played at the park. “Brown Puppy” has been covered in mud, dropped in puddles. He has been pulled and tugged so that his little puppy legs have started to loosen at the seams. Whenever my son gets his puppy dirty, or doesn’t handle him well, he comes to me.

I will take the puppy, and wash him. Sew the seams. Clean the stains. I make the puppy like new for him, and I always return this gift, out of love for my son, freely. No matter how much he has abused “brown puppy” I always restore his little friend to (almost new) condition and send them on their journey together again

Now…how much more can our Father, restore our relationship through Christ when we come to Him? When we “muddy” our relationship, or mistreat His free gift of grace? When I sew brown puppy back up, there is always a little trace of stitching that will never look like new. When I clean stains, sometimes a little bit will remain on his fur. But with our perfect, and loving father, our relationship is ALWAYS PERFECTLY restored! When we choose to turn towards him, his grace remains, unblemished and pure.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed, I’d like to offer an analogy.

Think of a little child. When a child is given a gift, freely from his parents, does he always take perfect care of it? Sometimes children are very rough with their gifts. They may throw it around the house, break the pieces, loose the pieces if it was a gift that came with several parts. That doesn’t change the fact that the gift was given freely, and without their own merit.
And as with my own children, even if they mistreat the gifts I freely give them (both physical gifts and non visible gifts, such as my love for them), their treatment of those gifts does not effect my affection for them. However, when they do mistreat their gifts they have very real consequences for that choice.
If my son disobeys, he must spend time in time out. If he tells me a lie or responds to my love in an un-loving way, he must apologize. None of these acts change the love I have for my son, but each of these acts require action on his part to restore his relationship with me.

He can take the gift of mommy and daddy’s love and choose to respond in love, or he can run away, disobey, and refuse our gift. Just as in the story of the prodigal son, he chose to run from his father, the family he had been born into and the love that was offered for him. He ran and turned towards sin. But his father was willing to forgive and accept him when he turned from his ways and returned to his family.

How much more true is this of Christians? We may be born into the family of God through Baptism, but choose to reject that gift of grace by turning away. But if we are willing to return to God, to restore that relationship with him, and strive for a life of grace, we are responding appropriately to God’s free gift. It is not our own efforts that make us worthy of God’ s gift, but it is certainly our efforts and sinful natures that cause us to turn from that gift.

This is why the sacrament of reconcilliation is such a blessing from God! He KNEW from the beginning of time, that even though He would offer himself as salvation for the whole world, that we would fail and choose sin. So, through the sacrament, we have an opportunity to return to God, to choose his grace in faith, by responding to his love, with love. He is able to work through us, as instruments of his love, when we allow ourselves to strive for that state of grace.

Salvation is truly offered to all mankind through Christ, our Lord.  It is up to us, to choose participation in his saving grace, so that He can use us, transform us, to holiness. It is only in choosing to participate in the redemptive work of Christ, that we may serve and be pleasing to  God :)

---

I wanted to add to the analogy
My son has a little brown stuffed puppy that he ALWAYS has to have in order to go to sleep. This puppy was a gift I gave him on his second birthday. He LOVES that puppy so much! He takes his little stuffed friend everywhere. They have played outside together, gone on car rides, rode in the wagon, played at the park. “Brown Puppy” has been covered in mud, dropped in puddles. He has been pulled and tugged so that his little puppy legs have started to loosen at the seams. Whenever my son gets his puppy dirty, or doesn’t handle him well, he comes to me.

I will take the puppy, and wash him. Sew the seams. Clean the stains. I make the puppy like new for him, and I always return this gift, out of love for my son, freely. No matter how much he has abused “brown puppy” I always restore his little friend to (almost new) condition and send them on their journey together again

Now…how much more can our Father, restore our relationship through Christ when we come to Him? When we “muddy” our relationship, or mistreat His free gift of grace? When I sew brown puppy back up, there is always a little trace of stitching that will never look like new. When I clean stains, sometimes a little bit will remain on his fur. But with our perfect, and loving father, our relationship is ALWAYS PERFECTLY restored! When we choose to turn towards him, his grace remains, unblemished and pure.

As the parent’s of your three wonderful children, is your relationship with your children conditional or unconditional on the basis of your children’s obedience to you? Can your children ever cease being your children? Can you ever stop being their parents. Your answer to these questions will side you with Roman Catholic theology or historic Protestant theology. I am very interested since you have been blessed with three children. I too have been blessed with three children and a wonderful marraige of 21 years. My kids are all teenagers, and by their behavoir sometimes, I would love to disown them for just a few days… but not forever. How much greater is the love of our Heavenly Father than our love for our children?

matt 7

Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

[AshleyBelle]

As the parent’s of your three wonderful children, is your relationship with your children conditional or unconditional on the basis of your children’s obedience to you? Can your children ever cease being your children? Can you ever stop being their parents. Your answer to these questions will side you with Roman Catholic theology or historic Protestant theology. I am very interested since you have been blessed with three children. I too have been blessed with three children and a wonderful marraige of 21 years. My kids are all teenagers, and by their behavoir sometimes, I would love to disown them for just a few days… but not forever.

As illustrated with the analogy above, of course it is unconditional. Just as God's love is unconditional!

I think you miss the purpose of my illustration.

It isn’t an issue of whether God’s love is unconditional… I was illustrating that even though our loving father will never stop loving us, we always have the choice, and often choose, to disobey Him.

It is up to us, when we turn away from God’s love, to turn back. To actively choose, through the sacrament of reconcilliation to step back into the grace of salvation.

Though our sins never “loose” God’s love, they may very well seperate us. Just as if my son chooses to disobey, he must spend time in time out. He cannot simply continue being disobedient and still recieve free gifts from me. If he has been rough on his little brother and disobeyed me, he will have privaledges taken away.
I will not buy him a new stuffed puppy if he destroys brown puppy and “expects” me to just get him a new one. He must be sorry that he broke the gift, and ask fogiveness. Then, out of love, I respond by restoring that gift.

 

[Reformed]

As illustrated with the analogy above, of course it is unconditional. Just as God’s love is unconditional!

I think you miss the purpose of my illustration.

It isn’t an issue of whether God’s love is unconditional… I was illustrating that even though our loving father will never stop loving us, we always have the choice, and often choose, to disobey Him.

It is up to us, when we turn away from God’s love, to turn back. To actively choose, through the sacrament of reconcilliation to step back into the grace of salvation.

Though our sins never “loose” God’s love, they may very well seperate us. Just as if my son chooses to disobey, he must spend time in time out. He cannot simply continue being disobedient and still recieve free gifts from me. If he has been rough on his little brother and disobeyed me, he will have privaledges taken away.
I will not buy him a new stuffed puppy if he destroys brown puppy and “expects” me to just get him a new one. He must be sorry that he broke the gift, and ask fogiveness. Then, out of love, I respond by restoring that gift.

You sound like you are being transformed into a bible believing Proteststant Christian. Your son can never stop being your son because he is born into your family. The same is true in our spiritual brith. We are born again into the family of God on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone. Our adoption is unconditional, because the conditon for a restore realationship to God as Father has been met by Jesus Christ our brother.

He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• rom 8

 

[AshleyBelle]

You sound like you are being transformed into a bible believing Proteststant Christian.

He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• rom 8

Reformed, you are confusing (or trying to confuse me) on what God’s love is.

God’s love is absolutely unconditional.

God’s gift of grace is conditional upon our participation in His work of salvation.

That was the point of my analogy.

Just because we have stepped away from God, and refused His gift, or mistreated His gift, doesn’t change His love for us. Even if we do not know Christ, He loves us.

But in order to participate in His redeeming work, we must choose to cooperate with His gift of grace.

Sometimes out of love for our children, we must require them to obey before we can give gifts. Let’s go with the brown puppy analogy again. If my son is outright defiant and trying to break his toy, or he fights with his brother over the toy, I will often take the toy away. I will remove it and place the TOY in time out, until he is willing to obey and treat it properly.

Such is the case with our salvation, except God is not physically removing salvation from us… We are giving the gift back to him. We are taking His free gift, given not because we deserved it, but out of love. And we are telling him to take it back. Through our own choices, we throw the gift back at Him and continue in our sinful ways. But when we return to him, and choose faithful obedience over our sinful natures, He restores our gift from his unconditional love.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed, you are confusing (or trying to confuse me) on what God’s love is.

God’s love is absolutely unconditional.

God’s gift of grace is conditional upon our participation in His work of salvation.

That was the point of my analogy.

Just because we have stepped away from God, and refused His gift, or mistreated His gift, doesn’t change His love for us. Even if we do not know Christ, He loves us.

But in order to participate in His redeeming work, we must choose to cooperate with His gift of grace.

Sometimes out of love for our children, we must require them to obey before we can give gifts. Let’s go with the brown puppy analogy again. If my son is outright defiant and trying to break his toy, or he fights with his brother over the toy, I will often take the toy away. I will remove it and place the TOY in time out, until he is willing to obey and treat it properly.

Such is the case with our salvation, except God is not physically removing salvation from us… We are giving the gift back to him. We are taking His free gift, given not because we deserved it, but out of love. And we are telling him to take it back. Through our own choices, we throw the gift back at Him and continue in our sinful ways. But when we return to him, and choose faithful obedience over our sinful natures, He restores our gift from his unconditional love.

I think the central theme is parent and child, Heavenly Father and adopted children. Can you ever disown your children as being yoru children and no longer be their parents? It is the same with those who have been adopted as children of God through faith in Christ. We are not talking about unbelievers who are still children of the devil. Will God our Father who purchased us (believers) by the blood of His only begotten Son, abandon us to become children of the devil again?

 

[AshleyBelle]

I think the central theme is parent and child, Heavenly Father and adopted children. Can you ever disown your children as being yoru children and no longer be their parents? It is the same with those who have been adopted as children of God through faith in Christ. We are not talking about unbelievers who are still children of the devil. Will God our Father who purchased us (believers) by the blood of His only begotten Son, abandon us to become children of the devil again?

Where do you get the idea that unbelievers are children of the devil???

This is NOT biblical.

All are children of God. All are loved by God. This is a huge difference in our theology. I do not believe any soul is “lost” to God because they have not proclaimed Christ as their Lord and Savior! God knows every heart, and Christ is indeed truth. Truth is saving, and truth will set you free! Any person in any corner of the world who believes even the smallest bit of truth, is still holding Christ. Truth may be saving, no matter how small. It is not up to us to declare ANYONE as lost, because Christ offered salvation to ALL mankind, not just Christians. We may know the fullness of the truth, but it is not up to us to judge heaven or hell on anyone, for ALL are children of God.

It is up to us to SHARE Christ, and God’s love and message of salvation for the world. But not with the intent to 'save" anyone. Sharing love and truth and Christ is our commandment, saving sinners is NOT.

 

[Reformed]

Where do you get the idea that unbelievers are children of the devil???

This is NOT biblical.

All are children of God. All are loved by God. This is a huge difference in our theology. I do not believe any soul is “lost” to God because they have not proclaimed Christ as their Lord and Savior! God knows every heart, and Christ is indeed truth. Truth is saving, and truth will set you free! Any person in any corner of the world who believes even the smallest bit of truth, is still holding Christ. Truth may be saving, no matter how small. It is not up to us to declare ANYONE as lost, because Christ offered salvation to ALL mankind, not just Christians. We may know the fullness of the truth, but it is not up to us to judge heaven or hell on anyone, for ALL are children of God.

It is up to us to SHARE Christ, and God’s love and message of salvation for the world. But not with the intent to 'save" anyone. Sharing love and truth and Christ is our commandment, saving sinners is NOT.

Surprise surprise…the Bible is full of surprises! Before our adoption, we are called children of the devil, children of wrath, children of darkness, children of disobedience, children of Adam. Please think why Christ had to die, and what did Jesus Christ rescue us from… but the wrath of God for our sins.

 

[Reformed]

For starters…

1 John 3:10

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

You Are of Your Father the Devil - the gospel of John

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

 

[guanophore]

Reformed, you are confusing (or trying to confuse me) on what God’s love is.

God’s love is absolutely unconditional.

God’s gift of grace is conditional upon our participation in His work of salvation.

That was the point of my analogy.

Just because we have stepped away from God, and refused His gift, or mistreated His gift, doesn’t change His love for us. Even if we do not know Christ, He loves us.

But in order to participate in His redeeming work, we must choose to cooperate with His gift of grace.

Sometimes out of love for our children, we must require them to obey before we can give gifts. Let’s go with the brown puppy analogy again. If my son is outright defiant and trying to break his toy, or he fights with his brother over the toy, I will often take the toy away. I will remove it and place the TOY in time out, until he is willing to obey and treat it properly.

Such is the case with our salvation, except God is not physically removing salvation from us… We are giving the gift back to him. We are taking His free gift, given not because we deserved it, but out of love. And we are telling him to take it back. Through our own choices, we throw the gift back at Him and continue in our sinful ways. But when we return to him, and choose faithful obedience over our sinful natures, He restores our gift from his unconditional love.

I would just add that one reason that it is confusing talking about salvation with “bible Christians” is that many of them have a very immature attitude about salvation. It is more mature, according to the great Apostle Paul “not that I have already attained…but putting aside what lies behind, I press forward…”

I think it gives more clarity, when discussing the subject (especially with OSAS folks) that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not yet perfected until we are glorified in heaven. Until that time, we are still working out our salvation with fear and trembling. The accusation that we “lose” salvation is not really accurate, then. It is more accurate to say that we have not yet attained. A person can’t "lose’ what has not been attained.

 

[guanophore]

If someone is justified through the blood of Jesus Christ, a redeemed sinner cannot lose that status of adopted child because justification is a free gift to us, but purchased by Jesus Christ on our behalf. We all know that many who profess Jesus Christ fall away.

Yes, and because we are changed and sealed when we are born again, the Apostles teach that our last state is WORSE than our first. I am curious, how you dispense with these passages, in the light of your OSAS theology.

Baptismal regneration, altar calls, sinner’s prayers, decisional regeneration can be works of men as compared to God; therefore, they are not always a product of God but by men. So, why do you think people who are baptized, do an altar call, sinners’ prayer fall away later in life? Please study John chapter 6. God is only glorified if Christ rescues all that the Father gave Him to save.

Your lack of understanding of Catholic soteriology is abysmal.

If free will is the final determining factor for our final destiny, God has made us sovereign in salvation.

This is another logical fallacy.

God permitted human action does not take away HIs sovereignty.

You have yet to explain, according to your soteriology, how it is that humans can reject God’s purpose for themselves.

God is greater than our will to apostate and fall away.

Of course He is! That does not mean He will not permit us to fall away. Or more accurately, jump out of HIs hand.

Who are you trusting to be saved, your free will ablility assited by God through the sacraments, or in Christ alone to save you?

You misunderstand the sacraments, and the Cathollic teaching of justification by grace.

Salvation is a pure sovereign act of God’s sufficient grace to save wretched sinners like me and you to the praise of His glorious grace.

Why else would God save His enemies and not just destroy the entire human race like the worldwide flood? Why would God even have a remnant chosen by grace, for what purpose but to manifest His glory through His Son. The cross of Christ is so glorious!

He loves us. He created us to be with HIm.

 

[Reformed]

I would just add that one reason that it is confusing talking about salvation with “bible Christians” is that many of them have a very immature attitude about salvation. It is more mature, according to the great Apostle Paul “not that I have already attained…but putting aside what lies behind, I press forward…”

I think it gives more clarity, when discussing the subject (especially with OSAS folks) that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is not yet perfected until we are glorified in heaven. Until that time, we are still working out our salvation with fear and trembling. The accusation that we “lose” salvation is not really accurate, then. It is more accurate to say that we have not yet attained. A person can’t "lose’ what has not been attained.

Protestants grown in our corruptible bodies for the full redemption and desire for our promised incorruptible bodies, and we yearn to be completely redeemed from our inner battle and war between flesh and Spirit (rom 7 and 8). We all see dimly and in part. Protestants understand salvation in the past, present, and future tenses.

If Catholics were honest with their theology, Catholics really see salvation in only the present and future tenses since Catholics cannot understand the past tense of salvation which the Apostles clearly testify to.

 

[guanophore]

As the parent’s of your three wonderful children, is your relationship with your children conditional or unconditional on the basis of your children’s obedience to you?

This a very good question, since God has chosen to relate to us as family. The term “relationship” is ambiguous in this question. No, the “relationship” does not change if they are disobedient or they reject me. However the benefits are affected. If they don’t do their chores, I will not carry them around in my “delivery van”.

If they choose to run away from home, I cannot launch them into adulthood, and will probably not include them in the will.

Can your children ever cease being your children? Can you ever stop being their parents. Your answer to these questions will side you with Roman Catholic theology or historic Protestant theology.

This is very sad, Reformed. It shows a very deficient understanding of family, and of our relationship with God. God never stops loving us, and once He adopts us, He will never “unadopt” us. However, He loves us so much He permits us to choose Him. If we wish to leave, He allows us.

I am very interested since you have been blessed with three children. I too have been blessed with three children and a wonderful marraige of 21 years.  My kids are all teenagers, and by their behavoir sometimes, I would love to disown them for  just a few days... but not forever. How much greater is the love of our Heavenly Father than our love for our children?

Disowning someone does not make them less our children. It makes it impossible for them to inherit the promises that are there for them. Jesus is clear that, if we disown Him, He will disown us. It does not change our adopted status, just makes us accursed children.

 

[Reformed]

This is very sad, Reformed. It shows a very deficient understanding of family, and of our relationship with God. God never stops loving us, and once He adopts us, He will never “unadopt” us. However, He loves us so much He permits us to choose Him. If we wish to leave, He allows us.

Disowning someone does not make them less our children. It makes it impossible for them to inherit the promises that are there for them. Jesus is clear that, if we disown Him, He will disown us. It does not change our adopted status, just makes us accursed children.

This entire analogy between our children and us being parents is from our dear Roman Catholic sister. I was just carrying this analogy to a deeper spiritual sense. We all know God as either judge or Heavenly Father. Once our relationship changes from judge and have been restored to Heavenly Father, how can God give us up again to becomming children of darkness. God is all powerful, therefore, His promises stands because He has the power to accomplish whatever pleases Him. Please please study John chapter 6. All whom the Father has given Jesus to rescue and save, God the Son has rescued and saved from the darkness in-spite of ourselves. Jesus is the savior and we are not. Please please mediate on romans chapter 8 tonight. I have to go for the evening. May God give you no rest until you wrestle with Romans chapter 8 and John chapter 6… to the prasie and glory of God alone.

 

[guanophore]

If Catholics were honest with their theology, Catholics really see salvation in only the present and future tenses since Catholics cannot understand the past tense of salvation which the Apostles clearly testify to.

Here is another judgemental, sweeping, and prejudicial and pejorative remark toward Catholics. Who are you to say what “Catholics cannot understand”? I think you have no idea how arrogant that sounds.

Let me use another category to show how this comes across:

" If African Americans were honest with their theology, African Americans really see salvation in only the present and future tenses since African Americans cannot understand the past tense of salvation which the Apostles clearly testify to.

It does not really matter what “group” you plug in there, the prejudice just screams out from it. How did you end up with this kind of sweeping racism toward Catholics?

This entire analogy between our children and us being parents is from our dear Roman Catholic sister. I was just carrying this analogy to a deeper spiritual sense. We all know God as either judge or Heavenly Father. Once our relationship changes from judge and have been restored to Heavenly Father, how can God give us up again to becomming children of darkness.

It is a very good analogy. God built us into families, came to us through a family, and wants to relate to us as family.

God is all powerful, therefore, His promises stands because He has the power to accomplish whatever pleases Him. Please please study John chapter 6. All whom the Father has given Jesus to rescue and save, God the Son has rescued and saved from the darkness in-spite of ourselves. Jesus is the savior and we are not. Please please mediate on romans chapter 8 tonight. I have to go for the evening. May God give you no rest until you wrestle with Romans chapter 8 and John chapter 6… to the prasie and glory of God alone.

For some reason you believe that God, being all sovereign, cannot permit human action and still retain His sovereignity. I do not understand this.

I think the “praise and glory of God alone” part falls short because God does not want to be alone. He created us to have fellowship with Him. We are the emanation of HIs love, and the desire of HIs heart. He has ordained that we, in are small human frailty, should be co-heirs with Christ, and be united with HIm for eternity. He is not alone, and has never been alone, and He has chosen not to glorify HImself alone, but to glorfiy HImself through us.