Religious affections and love for God

[AshleyBelle]

For starters…

1 John 3:10

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

You Are of Your Father the Devil - the gospel of John

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Is Jesus is really telling the jews in this passage that they aren’t truly descended from Abraham?

So, by analogy, are you saying that people who do not believe are truly descended from the devil?

 

[ryanoneil]

Justification is our legal standing before God that is positional only.

by positional do you mean being “in Christ.” Without clarification this is the only conclusion that makes sense to me.

**Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. (Rom 6:1)

Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1)**

Am I even close?

Sanctification is the lifetime process which we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Why justification is linked to sanctification? Because if someone has been born from above, regenerated and are forever united to Christ, God promises to finish the work that He started through the lifetime process of sanctification.

I’m not sure what you are saying. After we are grafted into Christ we can be cut off.

See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Rom 11:22)

God isn’t going to save us positionally without change us in reality. We are no longer slaves to our old sin nature, but Christ died so we can actually become more and more holy…like Christ, right? We can’t be a new creation in Christ positionally if God isn’t making us what we are positionally. Paul always writes this way… the theology as adopted children secured in what God has done for us in Christ…therefore…live like the new creation.

We are definately called to become more holy like Christ.

But, help me out with the basics here. I need to know what positionally means. I don’t even know if I’m really responding to what I think you are saying.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Woud you agree that what a Protestant calls sanctification or the transformation process of becoming more like Christ is the basis of the Catholic’s justification?

What if after being forgiven and sanctified, we reject our faith?

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[Reformed]

Is Jesus is really telling the jews in this passage that they aren’t truly descended from Abraham?

So, by analogy, are you saying that people who do not believe are truly descended from the devil?

Understanding our condition prior to knowing Christ is essential. We must understand the bad news before appreciating the great good news of God. Please look at 1 John 3:10 again. The Apostle is addressing this letter to believers.

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Here is another passage written to believers.

Ephesians 2

2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 5

5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light.

John 3

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[AshleyBelle]

Understanding our condition prior to knowing Christ is essential. We must understand the bad news before appreciating the great good news of God. Please look at 1 John 3:10 again. The Apostle is addressing this letter to believers.

So your answer, to "was Jesus telling the jews in this passage that they truly were not descended of abraham…was he questioning their lineage, " Is :understanding our condition prior to knowing Christ is essential???

Can’t you answer the question? Your answer is “understanding our condition prior to knowing Christ is essential…”

So that is why I asked the question!

*1 John 3:10

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

You Are of Your Father the Devil - the gospel of John

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”*

So…was Christ actually questioning their lineage? Was he asking the jews literally if Abraham was their ancestor? He knew they were descended from Abraham.

Just as we are all descended from God. To say otherwise would be to elevate the devil to the status of creator. We are not created by the devil, we are created by God, to love God. We become “of the devil” when we choose to reject God. When we choose not to love our neigbor as He commands us. This is referring to SIN, not to our inherited status before we “accept Christ” as you like to interpret it according to Reformed.

If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did

What do you make of this passage?

 

[Reformed]

So your answer, to "was Jesus telling the jews in this passage that they truly were not descended of abraham…was he questioning their lineage, " Is :understanding our condition prior to knowing Christ is essential???

Can’t you answer the question? Your answer is “understanding our condition prior to knowing Christ is essential…”

So that is why I asked the question!

*1 John 3:10

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

You Are of Your Father the Devil - the gospel of John

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”*

So…was Christ actually questioning their lineage? Was he asking the jews literally if Abraham was their ancestor? He knew they were descended from Abraham.

Just as we are all descended from God. To say otherwise would be to elevate the devil to the status of creator. We are not created by the devil, we are created by God, to love God. We become “of the devil” when we choose to reject God. When we choose not to love our neigbor as He commands us. This is referring to SIN, not to our inherited status before we “accept Christ” as you like to interpret it according to Reformed.

If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did

What do you make of this passage?

I agree with your comment that speaks of our universal condition prior to coming to Christ. We are all united to Adam, children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of darkness as we enter this world. We have to be saved from our citizenship in the kingdom of darkness and moved to the kingdom of light through Christ. We have to be adopted into the kingdom of God through a spiritual birth.

In this particular passage, the unbelieving Jews boasted in being from Abraham (being descendants of God’s chosen people). However, Jesus said that being physical descendants of Abraham does not mean that you are spiritual descendents of Abraham. The elect physical descendants of Abraham believed that Jesus is the Christ, therefore they are both physical and spiritual descendants of Abraham… and united to the true seed which is Christ (Gal 2 and 3, Rom 2, Rom 9, 10, 11). If the physical Jew does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, they are what they are… children of the devil.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I agree with your comment that speaks of our universal condition prior to coming to Christ. We are all united to Adam, children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of darkness as we enter this world. We have to be saved from our citizenship in the kingdom of darkness and moved to the kingdom of light through Christ. We have to be adopted into the kingdom of God through a spiritual birth.

In this particular passage, the unbelieving Jews boasted in being from Abraham (being descendants of God’s chosen people). However, Jesus said that being physical descendants of Abraham does not mean that you are spiritual descendents of Abraham. The elect physical descendants of Abraham believed that Jesus is the Christ, therefore they are both physical and spiritual descendants of Abraham… and united to the true seed which is Christ (Gal 2 and 3, Rom 2, Rom 9, 10, 11). If the physical Jew does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, they are what they are… children of the devil.

But doesn’t he speak of works? “if you were children of abraham you would do the works of abraham?”
Even the demons “believe that Jesus is the Christ.”
What seperates us is not believing, but our works. Our decision to DO good deeds, and turn from sin.

 

[Reformed]

But doesn’t he speak of works? “if you were children of abraham you would do the works of abraham?”
Even the demons “believe that Jesus is the Christ.”
What seperates us is not believing, but our works. Our decision to DO good deeds, and turn from sin.

Sure, saving faith works…just like what is taught in James 2 because a saving faith is a live faith which the Spirit of God dwells in the believer. The unbelieving jews still worked, but their righteous works were like filty rags since they rejected Christ’s work as the basis of their relationship with God the Father. The Pharisees were very righteous men who worked.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Sure, saving faith works…just like what is taught in James 2 because a saving faith is a live faith which the Spirit of God dwells in the believer. The unbelieving jews still worked, but their righteous works were like filty rags since they rejected Christ’s work as the basis of their relationship with God the Father. The Pharisees were very righteous men who worked.

You are trying to seperate the idea of faith from the idea of works. They are not interchangable words… One needs faith, and one needs works for salvation. “Faith without works is dead.” This verse wouldn’t make any sense if faith and works were essentially the same thing.

 

[Reformed]

You are trying to seperate the idea of faith from the idea of works. They are not interchangable words… One needs faith, and one needs works for salvation. “Faith without works is dead.” This verse wouldn’t make any sense if faith and works were essentially the same thing.

Hi Ashley,

Thanks for you comment. I have one question for you. Why should God let you into His eternal presence and allow you to be a citizen of His eternal kingdom of light?

Please let Ashley wrestle with this question on her own.

 

[MerickOWA]

Hi Ashley,

Thanks for you comment. I have one question for you. Why should God let you into His eternal presence and allow you to be a citizen of His eternal kingdom of light?

Please let Ashley wrestle with this question on her own.

So you’re saying that our faith alone in Jesus Christ is the reason God lets us into his eternal kingdom?

 

[Reformed]

So you’re saying that our faith alone in Jesus Christ is the reason God lets us into his eternal kingdom?

Faith has to have an object. I would say that the person and work of Jesus Christ alone will be the reason why anyone will be in Heaven. To receive the work of Christ on your behalf, it is received through the instrument of faith alone. We cannot add to the perfect work of Jesus Christ to merit Heaven, because Christ already merited perfectly our eternal relationship to God as Father for those who believe (trust in Christ’s work alone on your behalf as the basis of your entrance into the eternal kingdom). The work of Christ includes His perfect obdience to the Father’s will in His incarnation and His death on the cross as full atonement for our sins. If Christ paid the penalty for our sins, then there are no sins to be atoned for by the Christian.

 

[MerickOWA]

Faith has to have an object. I would say that the person and work of Jesus Christ will be the reason why anyone will be in Heaven. To receive the work of Christ on your behalf, it is received through the instrument of faith alone. We cannot add to the perfect work of Jesus Christ to merit Heaven, because Christ already merited perfectly for those who believe (trust in Christ’s work alone on your behalf as the basis of your entrance into the eternal kingdom). The work of Christ includes His perfect obdience to the Father’s will in His incarnation and His death on the cross as full atonement for our sins. If Christ paid the penalty for our sins, then there are no sins to be atoned for by the Christian.

I’m confused then as to what part love plays. If faith alone saves us, and love is greater than faith. Why must we love God? Faith alone is enough. Our love can’t possibly add to what Jesus did, and indeed would be imperfect. Is this what you are saying or have I misunderstood?

 

[Reformed]

I’m confused then as to what part love plays. If faith alone saves us, and love is greater than faith. Why must we love God? Faith alone is enough. Our love can’t possibly add to what Jesus did, and indeed would be imperfect. Is this what you are saying or have I misunderstood?

I’m not making the connection. We know faith pleases God. And Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commands. Faith and love for God go together for those who are in Christ. Please help me understand your question.

 

[MerickOWA]

I’m not making the connection. We know faith pleases God. And Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commands. Faith and love for God go together for those who are in Christ. Please help me understand your question.

Faith has to have an object. I would say that the person and work of Jesus Christ alone will be the reason why anyone will be in Heaven. To receive the work of Christ on your behalf, it is received through the instrument of faith alone.

My confusion is on statements like “And Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commands.” Why do we need to obey his commands? Is this just a suggestion and non-essential? If at the same time, faith alone will be my reason for entering Heaven, am I still saved by my faith if I don’t have love or follow the commandments?

 

[Reformed]

My confusion is on statements like “And Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commands.” Why do we need to obey his commands? Is this just a suggestion and non-essential? If at the same time, faith alone will be my reason for entering Heaven, am I still saved by my faith if I don’t have love or follow the commandments?

I think if you are not growing in obedience to the commands of God, then maybe the faith that you possess is not from God. It is a dead faith that is generated by the flesh of man; therefore resulting in a James chapter 2 dead faith.

Saving Faith comes from God as a gift which enables a person to grow in love for God. Because we love God, we obey Him in gratitude in what He has done for us in Christ. The Scriptures testifies that the love of Christ compells us to do the things that pleases God. Our motive for our actions is out of love and gratitude, and not a motive to merit salvation from Him by our action and obedience. To think that our personal works done in Christ merits salvation is to have lack of faith in what God reveals about the work of His Son on our behalf. Do you see the difference?

 

[MerickOWA]

I think if you are not growing in obedience to the commands of God, then maybe the faith that you possess is not from God. It is a dead faith that is generated by the flesh of man; therefore resulting in a James chapter 2 dead faith.

Saving Faith comes from God as a gift which enables a person to grow in love for God. Because we love God, we obey Him in gratitude in what He has done for us in Christ. The Scriptures testifies that the love of Christ compells us to do the things that pleases God. Our motive for our actions is out of love and gratitude, and not a motive to merit salvation from Him by our action and obedience. To think that our personal works done in Christ merits salvation is to have lack of faith in what God reveals about the work of His Son on our behalf. Do you see the difference?

I think I might understand a little better now. I’m still a little confused about what it means to have faith but not obedience. I have faith in Jesus and this saves me. If i disobey God I didn’t have faith in Jesus? Wouldn’t this mean that obedience is a requirement for faith?

 

[Reformed]

I think I might understand a little better now. I’m still a little confused about what it means to have faith but not obedience. I have faith in Jesus and this saves me. If i disobey God I didn’t have faith in Jesus? Wouldn’t this mean that obedience is a requirement for faith?

All humanity is commanded to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for reconcilation, peace with God, and forgiveness of sin. So, it is a sin and an act of disobedience to not come to Jesus Christ. So, we do obey this command to believe when we come to Christ. However, we are only able to obey this command to believe in Christ because God has enabled those who actually come to Christ by His enabling sovereign grace through the Spirit. I’m still confused what you mean about faith without lack of obedience.

Please read James chapter 2 in context and you will find that James is speaking of two mutually exclusive types of faith. One faith is dead and does not work; This dead faith is generated by self and is from the flesh. The other faith is given to us from God as a gift, which enables us to obey God out of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for us in His life and His death on our behalf. Actually, the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ is the basis why God is able to give us saving faith as a gift of grace to us in the first place. Therefore, Christianity is a Faith based on perfect obedience to the commands of God. We receive this perfect obedience of Jesus Christ through the instrument of faith, trusting that the work of Christ is sufficient for us to be reconciled to God.

 

[AshleyBelle]

All humanity is commanded to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for reconcilation, peace with God, and forgiveness of sin. So, it is a sin and an act of disobedience to not come to Jesus Christ. So, we do obey this command to believe when we come to Christ. However, we are able to obey to believe because God has enabled those who come by His grace through the Spirit. I’m still confused what you mean about faith without lack of obedience. Please read James chapter 2 in context and you will find that James is speaking of two mutually exclusive types of faith. One faith is dead and not work which is generated by self. The other faith is given to us from God as a gift, which enables us to obey God out of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for us in His life and His death on our behalf. Actually, the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ is the basis why God is able to give us saving faith as a gift of grace to us in the first place. Therefore, Christianity is a Faith based on perfect obedience to the commands of God. We receive this perfect obedience of Jesus Christ through the instrument of faith, trusting that the work of Christ is sufficient for us to be reconciled to God.

So…you’re saying that if we believe in Christ and have faith that our belief in Christ is sufficient for salvation… we will be perfectly obedient. And if we’re not perfectly obedient, then we never had real faith to begin with?

 

[Reformed]

So…you’re saying that if we believe in Christ and have faith that our belief in Christ is sufficient for salvation… we will be perfectly obedient. And if we’re not perfectly obedient, then we never had real faith to begin with?

Ohh… I never stated or implied that a born from above Christian will be perfectly obedient to the commands of God as a Christian. I did say the requirement to receive God as Father is perfect obdedience. We are not able to provide what God requires in regards to His absoulete standard of perfect obedience to His will and commands. Therefore, where can we receive the requirement absouletely required by God to be reconciled to Him and to maintain our relationship with Him as Father? God is a perfectly Holy and righteous God who does not grade on a curve. Sin must be punished since sin is rebellion against God’s rightful rule over His creation. There is a price to be paid for past, present and future sins. What is a Christian to do in light of our battle and struggle with sin as a Christian (rom 7)? Who will rescuse us from this body of death? The Apostle Paul gives us that answer.