Religious foundation authority

[STT]

Why do ask to enter our neighbor’s house when you have an paper invitation to the party? Why do you ask grandma to babysit when we know beforehand from her kindness she will do so?

I don’t understand how these questions are related to our discussion. You said that faith is a gift. I said that this is unjust. You said that we can ask for the gift. I said that why we should ask if we are children of God. We all should be gifted. Ok, could we please start from this place that why not all of us are gifted?

Will you always receive silence? Or are you only experiencing silence now because the time is not yet right?

Furthermore, silence itself can speak volumes. Any musician can tell you that silence is very important, and has its own meaning. Maybe the silence of God is a mere suspenseful pause in His glorious song we call creation.

Silence is not fair in a mutual relationship. You can simply fall in trap of doubt whether creation is an act of God. So I am wondering how that could help.

Are you saying that existence is too harsh for you?

I had harsh time like anybody else. Again this is not fair that you ask a question in reply to my question.

Of course not. That’s why it’s called the sin of Adam! (Unless you ARE Adam ).

No amount of logic can replace suffering, but our reflections can help us better understand the meaning of our suffering, and help us integrate it into a good and meaningful and holy life. If you seek concrete examples of those who have endured great suffering yet found profound meaning, peace, and happiness in it, I recommend reading about the Saints and Martyrs, maybe in particular St. Therese the Little Flower.

Our theology are not the rumblings from the ivory tower, but rather reflections on our faithful and holy ancestors’ sufferings, as well as our own.

Christi pax.

What is the meaning of suffering? Isn’t suffering evil?

 

[STT]

The same circular reasoning would apply to individuals as well.

I don’t understand why and how. Could you please elaborate and provide examples?

Ultimately we’re informed by reason and grace.

I think we can agree about the fact that reason together with intuition and wisdom are the basic pillars for constructing a suitable framework to grant the authority. What else we could do?

We cannot properly discern supernatural truth without supernatural aid.

We are not living in supernatural realm. Why should we need supernatural truth? We are bounded to life on a small planet. So I think we should stick to natural truth.

 

[Bradski]

Jesus accurately predicted the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70…hardly an event that could be manipulated.

I think that it might be more accurate to say that it was at least AD 70 when an anonymous scribe related that Jesus had made a prophesy which probably had already occurred when it was written. That’s like me posting that in 1946 my father told me that a woman would be President of the US.

Now how did he know that back then…

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Please see post #10: “faith is … a direct gift from God the Father Himself”

I realise this.
How do you go from this to “[such] gifted go to Heaven and [those not] go to Hell.”

It is not extrapolated interpolation of OP. It is interpenetration related to a verse in Bible made by a Catholic.

So its your interpretation of an unnamed person’s interpretation of an unnamed Bible verse?

Regardless, your final conclusion isn’t Catholic even if you may think it is.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

We are not living in supernatural realm.

If what we do now has a causal link to how we may be after death then in fact the supernatural is something we begin livinging now.
For those who see nothing after death…well you get what you want too…a natural life only.

Why should we need supernatural truth? We are bounded to life on a small planet. So I think we should stick to natural truth.

Its up to you. If you don’t need or want the add-ons that we believe human nature is secretly capable of then you likely won’t get them.
Don’t complain if some people see this natural life as missing something and so seek more and may possibly one day get it …while you possibly not so much.

Christians may be wrong, but what they seek is not rocket science and its not an unreasonable hope.

 

[po18guy]

Rather, it is linear, by the living tradition of the Church - from the eyewitnesses to us. An unbroken line of handing on that which was received. The same manner in which all belief systems are propagated.

 

[STT]

I realise this.
How do you go from this to “[such] gifted go to Heaven and [those not] go to Hell.”

What would be the point having a faith at all then if those without any faith can go to Heaven too? What is the point of Jesus teaching?

So its your interpretation of an unnamed person’s interpretation of an unnamed Bible verse?

No, I think I was quite clear in my previous comment/question.

Regardless, your final conclusion isn’t Catholic even if you may think it is.

I don’t understand your comment.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Lucretious answered all of your (STT) questions quite well in post #17.

In post #21 you (STT) proceed to cover your ears and say, “I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you.” You (STT) are not ready to listen, therefore you will not hear. It’s pretty simple.

 

[STT]

If what we do now has a causal link to how we may be after death then in fact the supernatural is something we begin livinging now.
For those who see nothing after death…well you get what you want too…a natural life only.

Well, then tell me what is the supernatural truth is if your claim is true. We still don’t know what natural truth is, what we are for example, so I am wondering that how we could possibly know supernatural truth without having any access to supernatural realm. You might say revelation. I would say that revelation is not even sufficient to explain what natural truth is so lets leave the supernatural truth aside. You want evidence, just look at the knowledge gathered with human during last centuries and compare it with the content of Bible.

Its up to you. If you don’t need or want the add-ons that we believe human nature is secretly capable of then you likely won’t get them.

I am open to everything but I need evidence, eye witness (something that I can experience and depend on), to put effort.

Don’t complain if some people see this natural life as missing something and so seek more and may possibly one day get it …while you possibly not so much.

I am not complaining. I am raising an issue of practicality. We don’t have access to supernatural realm, so why bother with it. You are of course free to put effort if you have access to it.

Christians may be wrong, but what they seek is not rocket science and its not an unreasonable hope.

We all might be wrong but seeking for supernatural truth is more that seeking rocket science.

 

[STT]

Lucretious answered all of your (STT) questions quite well in post #17.

In post #21 you (STT) proceed to cover your ears and say, “I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you.” You (STT) are not ready to listen, therefore you will not hear. It’s pretty simple.

That debate is still open. Please read post #21, my response. My ears are wide open. I was a Muslim so I am very familiar with this type of reasoning.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

What would be the point having a faith at all then if those without any faith can go to Heaven too? What is the point of Jesus teaching?
.

So why do you think the OP, says the ungifted go to hell?

 

[STT]

So why do you think the OP, says the ungifted go to hell?

I didn’t say so. The discussion was deviated from post #10 which is not a proper response to OP. The main claim of OP is that all religious foundations claims about their authorities are circular and problematic.

 

[goout]

This problem took my attention when I was discussing another topic in another thread. The problem is that most of religious foundation authorities claim that they get their authority from God. How we are informed about God? Through religious foundation. This to me is circular and problematic. What do you think?

The foundation of religious authority could be discovered this way:

You didn’t create yourself. You exist because of (fill in the blank, and whatever that blank is, it ain’t you, it’s something or someone else).

In other words, something other than you is responsible for your existence. You could say that something has authority, or is authority, or holds authority. Something other than you is the *author *of you and all else. Christianity personalizes this “otherness”, and we call that being “God”. (to be technical God is being itself, not just a being…another discussion).

You could also say that’s all accidental and meaningless, which is the best explanation I’ve ever heard from an atheist…it all means nothing.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Well, then tell me what is the supernatural truth is if your claim is true. We still don’t know what natural truth is, what we are for example, so I am wondering that how we could possibly know supernatural truth without having any access to supernatural realm. You might say revelation. I would say that revelation is not even sufficient to explain what natural truth is so lets leave the supernatural truth aside. You want evidence, just look at the knowledge gathered with human during last centuries and compare it with the content of Bible.

Well if you do not even understand the natural realm which is allegedly your area of expertise whence your confidence that an even less apparent realm, the supernatural, is to be naysayed .

Your argumentation is arbitrary and nonsensical and betrays significant prejudice.
Hardly the neutral scientific tone you pretend to march from.

Clearly Christians, for all the untapped mystery of nature, do not see nature as enough and seek more. It is a reasonable stance even if one that cannot be proven this side of the grave.
It’s a lotto ticket worth buying for many.
You, maybe not so much.

If you do not wish to buy into the game then by all means spend your saved lotto ticket money on ice cream instead.
Don’t complain though if people around you one day end up with yachts and you don’t.
If they end up with no ice creams and no yachts then you are welcome to say told ya so.
But then you also face the same absence of total certainty and proof re your stance this side of the grave too, do you not .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I didn’t say so. The discussion was deviated from post #10 which is not a proper response to OP. The main claim of OP is that all religious foundations claims about their authorities are circular and problematic.

Clearly by OP I mean Lucretius.
And clearly you interpret him as I stated.
Why so exactly?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I don’t understand your comment.

I observe that you appear to believe you are arguing against a Christian teaching on this point. You are mistaken in thinking this is accurate Christian teaching if that is the case.
Not hard to understand at all really.

 

[goout]

I don’t understand how these questions are related to our discussion. You said that faith is a gift. I said that this is unjust. You said that we can ask for the gift. I said that why we should ask if we are children of God. We all should be gifted. Ok, could we please start from this place that why not all of us are gifted?

If God is love, then he pours himself out to everyone. God is a giver, as this is the nature of love. A relationship exists. In this relationship there is a reciprocity between persons. Giving and receiving.
Why should we ask God for his grace? Because it delights the relationship and fills it with joy. Why would you not speak to someone so gracious and pour out your heart?

What is the meaning of suffering? Isn’t suffering evil?

No small amount of mystery there. Suffering is part of life. So is what we would call good. Life is not forced upon as an unremitting gluttony of pleasure. Sometimes we experience negatives, sometimes positives, and all things in between.

So yes good question. What is the meaning of it all? Good and bad.

 

[STT]

The foundation of religious authority could be discovered this way:

You didn’t create yourself. You exist because of (fill in the blank, and whatever that blank is, it ain’t you, it’s something or someone else).

In other words, something other than you is responsible for your existence. You could say that something has authority, or is authority, or holds authority. Something other than you is the *author *of you and all else. Christianity personalizes this “otherness”, and we call that being “God”. (to be technical God is being itself, not just a being…another discussion).

You could also say that’s all accidental and meaningless, which is the best explanation I’ve ever heard from an atheist…it all means nothing.

We are talking about religious foundation authority and not God’s authority. God has authority over individuals who are neither intellectual nor mature. As the authority that parents have over their children. God of course does not have authority over those who are intellectual and mature enough. He created us as intellectual being with the ability to become mature so we can live on our owns. He could be present if He wanted to enforce His authority. He is not present because his presence is not needed. Moreover God doesn’t need an mediator so called religious institution because He can simply intervene in our duties if He wants.

 

[goout]

We are talking about religious foundation authority and not God’s authority.

What do you think religious authority is about? Whether you accept the authority or not you should know what you are talking about.
Religious authority is personal. God is a being. The authority is in God, not in religion for it’s own sake.

God has authority over individuals who are neither intellectual nor mature. As the authority that parents have over their children. God of course does not have authority over those who are intellectual and mature enough.

Huh? :whacky:

He created us as intellectual being with the ability to become mature so we can live on our owns.

A mature person realizes he is a contingent being and is utterly dependent on someone else for his existence.

He could be present if He wanted to enforce His authority. He is not present because his presence is not needed. Moreover God doesn’t need an mediator so called religious institution because He can simply intervene in our duties if He wants.

God is present. Have you heard of the Incarnation?

You don’t accept it, but to have a discussion you should know what you are talking about.

 

[STT]

Clearly by OP I mean Lucretius.
And clearly you interpret him as I stated.
Why so exactly?

I see. I thought that by OP you meant the OP related to this thread.

I think I answer your question by asking other questions. You didn’t answer my questions so I repeat them again: What would be the point having a faith at all then if those without any faith can go to Heaven too? What is the point of Jesus teaching for our salvation? Why He died on the cross for our sins? Why did He say that faith is a gift?

There are two main answers to these questions: There is a purpose for faith or there is no purpose for faith. What would be the purpose of faith if it cannot save us from Hell?