Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[flameburns623]

“You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you”.

The apostles DIDN’T recognize Jesus.

Jesus chose THEM.

 

[Servant19]

“You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you”.

The apostles DIDN’T recognize Jesus.

Jesus chose THEM.

So they had no free will to go back home and get on with their lives?

Plus, also when He arrives into Jerusalem and the crowds are shouting Hosanna, did they come because Jesus invited them too?

 

[Servant19]

***Lauded be Thy name, O Lord my God! Thou seest me in this day shut up in my prison, and fallen into the hands of Thine adversaries, and beholdest my son (The Purest Branch) lying on the dust before Thy face. He is Thy servant, O my Lord, whom Thou hast caused to be related to Him Who is the Manifestation of Thyself and the Day-Spring of Thy Cause.At his birth he was afflicted through his separation from Thee, according to what had been ordained for him through Thine irrevocable decree. And when he had quaffed the cup of reunion with Thee, he was cast into prison for having believed in Thee and in Thy signs. He continued to serve Thy Beauty until he entered into this Most Great Prison. Thereupon I offered him up, O my God, as a sacrifice in Thy path. Thou well knowest what they who love Thee have endured through this trial that hath caused the kindreds of the earth to wail, and beyond them the Concourse on high to lament.

I beseech Thee, O my Lord, by him and by his exile and his imprisonment, to send down upon such as loved him what will quiet their hearts and bless their works. Potent art Thou to do as Thou willest. No God is there but Thee, the Almighty, the Most Powerful. ***

Baha’u’llah

 

[tonyfish58]

“You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you”.

The apostles DIDN’T recognize Jesus.

Jesus chose THEM.

That is a good observation

It is also true of all Religion. It is God that chooses His chosen people, it is 100% Gods Grace & bounty.

It was not me that found religion, it was God’s gift to me. It is the same to all that get to Know and Love God.

I found this passage and it reflects what you have said. To be open to Gods Grace and Bounty to accept His Cause one MUST have at least these 3 things;

“The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit”.

Can any one really know or recognise the greatness of Christ? If it was not for Christ opening our eyes, no one would see!

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

That is a good observation

It is also true of all Religion. It is God that chooses His chosen people, it is 100% Gods Grace & bounty.

It was not me that found religion, it was God’s gift to me. It is the same to all that get to Know and Love God.

I found this passage and it reflects what you have said. To be open to Gods Grace and Bounty to accept His Cause one MUST have at least these 3 things;

“The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit”.

Can any one really know or recognise the greatness of Christ? If it was not for Christ opening our eyes, no one would see!

Regards Tony

Ya Baha’ul-Abha!

Well said my brother

the Kingdom of God was formed in the hearts and souls of men, yet the Jews did not recognize and were looking for “their” signs…

 

[Servant19]

You are trying to understand the great “I AM”, the Creator of the universe, with a human mind.

Why doesn’t the Church acknowledge such a verity then, rather than assuming this equals this and that equals that…putting God into boxes and definitions?

Jesus and the Father are one because there is only one God, not three. Where the Father is, there also is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. They cannot be separated because they are the one God.

We are dealing with a revealed truth beyond the limits of human understanding. Three divine “Persons” in one divine Being. This is the difference between objective truth; that which can be observed through human experience, and divinely revealed truth, that which is beyond human experience.

Divinely revealed truth? Whose revelation are you referring to?

If it is beyond human experience, why not say, “the relationship between the Father, His Son and the Holy Spirit is a mysterious one, which cannot be fathomed by human understandings. We have no records of any Revelation from Jesus that addresses or sheds more light on this matter”??

…rather than gathering together with some other adherents, making a decision on what you think it all means and then making it the standard…

And, as others have stated, Jesus certainly did claim to be God on more than a few occasions. That is why he was crucified, after all.

No-one denies that Steve, and Baha’is would be the first to acknowledge it, but how that relates to His human nature, how it relates to the Father etc etc is a mystery and it should have been humbly related in that way.

 

[tonyfish58]

Look, if Christianity (lets say by some chance since you are not Christian yet) is true, it actually accuses the founder of Bahai and all other non-Christian religions (except Judaism) to be deceivers or false prophets.

There are other ways of looking at what you have said. The above is only an interpretation of what someone thinks the Bible Passages say, it is not necessarily Truth!

Yes the Bible tells us to watch out for False Prophets and not be deceived.

But most importantly in light of the above comment, the Bible also tells us how to tell a true Prophet.

If everyone after Christ was to be declared as False then there would have been no need to give advice on how to test a True Prophet.

One has to be Just and detached when they undertake the Test as well.

If you wish put together a list of a Christians perspective of Christs Fruits. We could then compare them to other Prophets and see what happens! I am sure the rotten apples would soon be found.

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

So tell me why, Sen, you aren’t a Catholic??? You seem to have embraced all of it, and seem to be one-step separated from the Bahai faith, at least as articulated by some members here on the CAFs.

Come into full communion with us, Sen!! Dine at the wedding feast of the Lamb! Join us in the One Flesh Union! You will never be the same!!

Baha’u’llah writes: “Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration.”

It is a wonderful thing to be a participant in the early centuries of a new faith: I could never give that up. But I certainly do appreciate the richness of a tradition that has laid down layer after layer of topsoil over the centuries. There is so much to appreciate in Catholicism, that I don’t know how Catholics ever find time to study anything else !

 

[PRmerger]

Baha’u’llah writes: “Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration.”

It is a wonderful thing to be a participant in the early centuries of a new faith:

I can understand that.

But, Truth trumps everything.

Follow Truth wherever it leads…

And, I would add, the One Flesh Union trumps everything as well.

Without that, all you and your Beloved are, are good friends. Why not be nuptial with your Beloved, eh?

 

[Jaberwocky]

… continued…

. The philosophers and scientists who appear following the appearance of a Prophet may be inspired by the Spirit of the Age, either pro or con, in reaction to His Message and the power released either directly or indirectly by the Creative Word.
. Einstein may be likened to a seed which, when finally warmed by the rays of the sun, emerges from the soil and responds to the light, facilitating a leap of advancement in his particular field.
. Nietzsche, on the other hand, opposed God and His Prophets, and was like a seed which was cast upon dry rock, issuing forth a dead philosophy bearing no fruit.

. As to following Christ, or being a Christian, it was His Spirit that led me to Baha’u’llah.

. The followers of each of the religions hold that no Prophet has succeeded “their” Prophet, while those who are followers of the next Prophets recognize the validity of the previous Prophets, as do Christians the Prophets of the Old Testament, and Muslims do both the Old Testament Prophets and Jesus, and Baha’is the previous Prophets.

. “All the Prophets proclaim the same Faith.” Baha’u’llah

. Although it may confuse the reasoning of one from your perspective, Christ and Baha’u’llah are One and the same Spirit, even as the sun which shone on Monday is the same sun which shone on Tuesday. Though we call each day by a different name, it is the same sun which reappears.
. The proof of the sun are its rays. The proof of the Manifestations are Their Words, or verses. That the Pharisees failed to accept the Words of Jesus as being from God was not due to Him, but their own blindness.

. Other proofs, such as prophecies, were clearly fulfilled by Jesus and by Baha’u’llah. The Jews, after 2000 years, still fail to recognize these prophecies, and similarly, there shall always be those who fail to even investigate the hundreds of prophecies fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah, and proudly go on denying Him.
. In both cases, “pride” is the veil which prevents people from recognizing the Manifestation of God in the Day of His appearance. It is a spiritual “veil”. Saul was thus veiled until he had a vision, becoming Paul.

. As Jesus said, “Eyes they have, but see not” and “Ears they have, but hear not”

Daler,

You make it sound here as if Baha’u’llah is legitimate already. That is yet to be proven. So quoting Baha’u’llah to me or even quoting Jesus to me does not help.

On the matter of quoting Jesus, may I also point out that you are first using translations and you are also interpreting his words. Your interpretations do clash with the interpretation of those who heard and learned directly from him and the first Apostles. So it seems to me like you want to take this line of discussion, you have to first acquaint yourself with Christianity. What you will realize after you have done that is that quoting the words of Jesus in the way you do does not help unless you have a Church father or Church teaching to back it up.

So don’t get too involved with Christianity. Baha’u’llah’s legitimacy stands or falls on his merits alone.

First thing we should get past is on clarifying if you understand that Baha’u’llah’s teachings cannot justify him as from beyond. This is why Albert Einstein’s brilliant intellect doesn’t make us think he is God-ly and possesses knowledge of the transcendent.

 

[Jaberwocky]

**There are other ways of looking at what you have said. The above is only an interpretation of what someone thinks the Bible Passages say, it is not necessarily Truth!
**
Yes the Bible tells us to watch out for False Prophets and not be deceived.

But most importantly in light of the above comment, the Bible also tells us how to tell a true Prophet.

If everyone after Christ was to be declared as False then there would have been no need to give advice on how to test a True Prophet.

One has to be Just and detached when they undertake the Test as well.

If you wish put together a list of a Christians perspective of Christs Fruits. We could then compare them to other Prophets and see what happens! I am sure the rotten apples would soon be found.

Regards Tony

Your problem is that you think the Bible is still open to all interpretations of passages. That is an incorrect understanding of Orthodox Christianity. What the Bible speaks of in these passages have been clarified by the first Apostles and Church fathers and is present in the Tradition of the Church today.

The interpretation of the Bible does definitively say that all Public Divine Revelation has ended with Christ. There are no more Prophets in that sense. There is no new revelation to be had. Anyone who presents or claims to the contrary by presenting Bahai’ism for an example is therefore a false prophet.

Do you see the problem?

 

[Servant19]

Your problem is that you think the Bible is still open to all interpretations of passages. That is an incorrect understanding of Orthodox Christianity. What the Bible speaks of in these passages have been clarified by the first Apostles and Church fathers and is present in the Tradition of the Church today.

The interpretation of the Bible does definitively say that all Public Divine Revelation has ended with Christ. There are no more Prophets in that sense. There is no new revelation to be had. Anyone who presents or claims to the contrary by presenting Bahai’ism for an example is therefore a false prophet.

Do you see the problem?

Jaber, your fighting the unfightable…

What makes you think the Bible is not open to interpretation?
What makes you think that Jesus was the Messiah? The Jews don’t believe you, Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies, making any interpretations of the Bible by the Apostles, completely obsolete…

The entirety of Catholicism is based on the interpretation of the word “rock”. At least 5 billion people don’t support that interpretation. How do you know?

 

[Porknpie]

Jaber, your fighting the unfightable…

What makes you think the Bible is not open to interpretation?
What makes you think that Jesus was the Messiah? The Jews don’t believe you, Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies, making any interpretations of the Bible by the Apostles, completely obsolete…

The entirety of Catholicism is based on the interpretation of the word “rock”. At least 5 billion people don’t support that interpretation. How do you know?

Servant,

I know you are busy … but can you try answering post 656…

Thanks,

Pork

 

[tonyfish58]

Your problem is that you think the Bible is still open to all interpretations of passages. That is an incorrect understanding of Orthodox Christianity. What the Bible speaks of in these passages have been clarified by the first Apostles and Church fathers and is present in the Tradition of the Church today.

The interpretation of the Bible does definitively say that all Public Divine Revelation has ended with Christ. There are no more Prophets in that sense. There is no new revelation to be had. Anyone who presents or claims to the contrary by presenting Bahai’ism for an example is therefore a false prophet.

Do you see the problem?

Jaberwocky - As Baha’is we are fully aware that what we post here will as you said be a “incorrect understanding of Orthodox Christianity”. What we post is an alternate understanding of Scripture for people to ponder over. As Sen has said above many great things have come from the Christian Faith and we can all learn from these great things. Why would the Bible give so many warnings if in the end after thousands of years the Christians were still getting it 100% right?

I think we can agree that the bible is clear on the interpretation issue. What is not clear is who has the authority to "Open up the Words and Guide us Unto all Truth. So until that is 100% determined should we should not keep an open mind? Once again do you notice that False Prophet is used as a default without any clear evidence laid out in front of people.

No Baha’i on this site should offer a Private Interpretation of Scripture without telling you that it is. The Baha’is do not have to offer Private Interpretation as we beleive God has given the Keys to Baha’u’llah. It is Baha’u’llah that has released the meaning to Mankind. That is the same as saying Christ has fulfilled His promise in/through the Person Baha’u’llah. Ample biblical passages have been provided above to show this may indeed be the case.

I think this is the real issue for a lot of people. We lead quite busy lives and we can not all spend a lot of time pondering over all the religious writings that the world provides. So it is understandable we are not all Scholars in this branch of learning. But the Heart can overcome this issue, as the Love of God is the reason for it all.

Can we all learn to love God and then work out how to Love each other as One people under One Faith? Would that not be good?

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

I can understand that.

But, Truth trumps everything.

Follow Truth wherever it leads…

And, I would add, the One Flesh Union trumps everything as well.

Without that, all you and your Beloved are, are good friends. Why not be nuptial with your Beloved, eh?

I too like the way Sen portrays His faith, it is good to see! But that is the world we are all different and all on our path to Knowing and Loving God.

I agree “Follow Truth wherever it leads…”

I would add that once a person thinks that they have found the ultimate path of Truth to God, then may be they have already started losing that path. It is God who guides us and gives us the bounty of staying on the path of Truth, but the Path of Truth is His Path and we must love God to be able to turn off at each of the correct forks in that path.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Why doesn’t the Church acknowledge such a verity then, rather than assuming this equals this and that equals that…putting God into boxes and definitions?

The Church very much recognizes that the doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery beyond human understanding. That the one God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a divinely revealed dogma. The Church, then, under the protection of the Holy Spirit and with Christ’s own authority to bind and loose, has developed doctrine concerning this revealed truth in order to carry out Christ’s command to teach all nations.

Divinely revealed truth? Whose revelation are you referring to?

The revelation of Jesus Christ; the fulfillment of all revelation; God’s only Word.

If it is beyond human experience, why not say, "the relationship between the Father, His Son and the Holy Spirit is a mysterious one, which cannot be fathomed by human understandings.

We do. The fact that we believe, as revealed by Christ, that there is one God in three divine Persons does not mean that we can fully grasp God’s nature. But it also does not mean that we are left staring into the sky without a clue. In matters of dogma and doctrine the Church teaches what has been revealed to it and nothing more.

We have no records of any Revelation from Jesus that addresses or sheds more light on this matter"??

You forget that the Church is Christ’s Church and that he is still the head of this Church. He is not dead, but alive, and he promised to remain with his Church until the end of time. The voice of the Church is the voice of Christ. We have no need of any further revelation. Our faith is in a Person, not in a book or a list of principles or some ideal.

…rather than gathering together with some other adherents, making a decision on what you think it all means and then making it the standard…

Are you at all aware of the history of the Catholic Church? Are you aware that our faith was founded on and given to us by those who lived and walked with Christ himself? I find it a little appalling, actually, that one 2000 years later would presume to have knowledge and understanding superior to the very Church that Christ himself founded. The assumption that any one individual’s opinion is just as valid is simply amazing.

 

[SteveVH]

No-one denies that Steve, and Baha’is would be the first to acknowledge it, but how that relates to His human nature, how it relates to the Father etc etc is a mystery and it should have been humbly related in that way.

No one denies this? No one denies that Jesus claimed to be God? Then what did you mean by this:

Originally Posted by Servant19
I don’t believe He ever said that He is God, yet the Trinity states that He is. Can you appreciate this confusion?

 

[Servant19]

No one denies this? No one denies that Jesus claimed to be God? Then what did you mean by this:

Can you point me to the verse where Jesus says He is God please Steve?

 

[SteveVH]

Can you point me to the verse where Jesus says He is God please Steve?

I’ll be happy to, Servant, but first of all, what is your position? You state that Jesus never said he was God. Then you say that no one denies that he said he was God including all Baha’is. Which is it?

 

[SteveVH]

Can you point me to the verse where Jesus says He is God please Steve?

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” [9] Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? [10] Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” [33] “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.