Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Servant19]

So you believe that Jesus is a mirror, but not the One standing in front of the mirror. Is that accurate?

Baha’is believe that it is the Father standing in front of the Mirror

Yes, because there is only one God. For Christ to do anything not willed by the Father would be a contradiction of himself. There is only one divine will because there is only one God.

According to who? It is true that that which can be weighed and measured is not “spirit”. But God became man by assuming human flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus was 100% God and 100% human.

I think the logic is that once something can be weighed, measured etc it immediately becomes capable of being subjected to human limitations.

God is not limited. Something that is measured is by logic, defined. God is not defineable.

Bahai theology on this matter is not very complex. We know what God is “not” and we can ponder in the mystery from there.

In Bahai terms, the words Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, All-Just, All-Loving, All-Wise etc etc are used to describe God, but these words are used purely so as we do not assign “imperfections” onto Him, but in reality God is not any of these things, it’s beyond any words.

As a human being, He would become easy to describe with words, and immediately we go to our understandings of what God is “not”

This is understandable. I believe you are equating the term “Person” with the term “Human Being”. Yet the term extends beyond the human being to angels and the divine Persons of the Trinity. These philosophical terms were defined in the 4th and 5th centuries by the Church in order to have a basis for discussing the nature of God in light of the revelation of Christ.

Definitions are very important, and I still maintain that some terms have different definitions within our two respective religions. Maybe that’s a task we need to undertake to get to the bottom of all this

Well, daler, I could claim the same thing. So what? If I make the claim that I am the Alpha and the Omega does that somehow undermine the words of Christ? No, it just makes me either delusional or a liar.

…except that you, as a claimant did not have thousands upon thousands of souls willing to give up their lives rather than recant their Faith in you. That counts for a huge lot I think…

I am curious, however, as to your statement that Muhammad said this. Please give your source.

I think it is better to seek Truth than to find imagery that works better for one, even if that truth cannot be completely comprehended.

I agree. But sometimes imagery can help. We are told that what we see in this physical realm has significant importance in discerning the truths of the invisible realm.

 

[daler]

I am curious, however, as to your statement that Muhammad said this. Please give your source.

Steve,
. I think you may be correct here, that in the Quran, God does not speak in the First Person in the context of stating “I” am the Alpha and the Omega:

[Quran 57:3] He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the Outermost and the Innermost. He is fully aware of all things.

. My limited understanding of the Quran is that Muhammad would repeat what Gabriel spoke to Him, which is why the Surahs all begin with the word: “Say”… Which is the same as in the Hebrew Scriptures which begin with: “Thus sayeth the Lord”

. When in the Quran, Muhammad is called the “Seal” of the Prophets, most Muslims are taught that the term “Seal” means final, or last, but that is not the Baha’i interpretation. In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha’u’llah explains that He (Muhammad) is both the “First and the Last”, meaning that the “Station” of His Prophethood is capable of saying both, even as in Revelation, for example, the One Who is speaking says “I am the Alpha and the Omega”. That is, both.

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets. - Qur’an 33:40

The word “Seal” (kha’tam in Arabic), in the verse above, has been interpreted over the centuries to mean the: “Last”, “Final”, “Seal” (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), “Seal” (as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and a few other meanings along similar lines of interpretation. Baha’is don’t object to these possible meanings, and readily believe in the more common interpretation of : (Seal meaning Last), as Muhammad (PBUH) is repeatedly referred to in the Baha’i Writings. This may at first appear contrary to believing that there is a new religion, but the visitor is invited to read further.

Followers of all past religions have believed, based on certain verses in their holy books, that their religion would not be followed by any other.

Verses such as this have prevented the Jews from accepting newer revelations:

“Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and “sealed” till the time of the end.”

• Daniel 12:9

 

[arthra]

Many passages in religious scripture and other studies of theology hint at the idea that the Reality of the Messengers of God is the same reality, in as much as, They all came from the same Source, bringing us God’s Teachings, and mirroring forth His attributes. In this light, it can be understood for example, how Jesus (PBUH) could also claim that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Here are some Muslim sources which contribute to such theme :

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein …- Qur’an 42:13
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah (in Islam).” - Qur’an 2:136

“Anas ibn Malik said,
One day the Messenger of God, peace be upon him, offered his morning prayer and ascended the pulpit. His face was resplendent as the full moon. We asked the Messenger of God to interpret the verse of the Qur’an: “…they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favor of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous.” [4:69] He said, (ama-an-nabiyoona fa-ana…) By the term “Prophets” I am meant, by the term “saints” Ali ibn Abi Talib is meant, by “martyrs” my uncle Hamzah is meant and the “righteous” are my daughter Fatimah and her two sons Hasan and Husayn.”
[Bihar’ul-Anwar vol. 7 by Majlesi, cited from Riyaz ul Janan by Fazl’u’llah ibn Mahmood al-Faresi] In this section of the book there are several references based on similar ahadith. Other Shi’ah scholars such as Allamih Kulaini in the book of Kafi and Mohsen Fayz Kashani in Tafseer-e Safi refer to the same set of ahadith with similar interpretations.

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.” Sahih-Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:
“The prophets are brothers of different mothers, but their religion is one. Of all men I am the most deserving to be the brother of Jesus Son of Mary, for there was no prophet between me and him.”
[Al Hendy, Kanzol 'Ummal, Vol. 17, Hadith No. 1033.]

Salman al-Farsi (RA) narrated that:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying: “I myself, and Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years (14,000) before He created Adam (AS). When Allah created Adam (AS) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one part Ali.”

References:

• Mizan Al-Ei’tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
• Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
• al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
• History of Ibn Asakir
  
  Passages from Baha’i Writings on the subject
  
  Baha’u’llah wrote: ’ …how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets?” Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?” Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets” - that is Adam - in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.” … ’ - Book of Certitude *

Notwithstanding the fact that all the Messengers of God were different individuals, Baha’is believe that the Reality of all these Messengers is one and the same in the sense that They all came to reveal aspects of the same Truth, and to help us learn about the one and same God. This is an aspect of the concept of the Oneness of God (Tawheed). In this sense, They were all the beginning and the end as Jesus (PBUH) proclaimed that He was the Alpha and the Omega.

 

[daler]

So is Baha’u’llah speaking to himself? He prays to God and then claims to be God himself, does he not?

Steve,
. This is very good of you to point out this question, in which Baha’is see a parallel, as someone pointed out, that Jesus at various times “appears” also to be contradicting Himself in the different contexts in which He also speaks. But Baha’is do not see a contradiction, rather that at times, as I understand it, God Himself is saying: “I am God”, or as Jesus replied, “I Am” So there is that First Person speaking through Him.

. Then, there is the human side, supplicating God, saying: “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.” or “I go unto the Father” or “Why callest thou Me good? There is no One good except God”

. In the Fire Tablet, the first several verses are Baha’u’llah supplicating unto God. Then, there is a shift, in which God begins answering Him.

. "In the Name of God, the Most Ancient, the Most Great.
Indeed the hearts of the sincere are consumed in the fire of separation: Where is the gleaming of the light of Thy Countenance, O Beloved of the worlds?
. Those who are near unto Thee have been abandoned in the darkness of desolation: Where is the shining of the morn of Thy reunion, O Desire of the worlds?

and then

. "O Supreme Pen, We have heard Thy most sweet call in the eternal realm: Give Thou ear unto what the Tongue of Grandeur uttereth, O Wronged One of the worlds!
. Were it not for the cold, how would the heat of Thy words prevail, O Expounder of the worlds?
. Were it not for calamity, how would the sun of Thy patience shine, O Light of the worlds?
. Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds.

. For the context, the whole of the Fire Tablet is in the link below:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-174.html

 

[PRmerger]

Did Jesus not pray to God on the cross before He drew His last breath?

Yes because they are not the same person. They are the Trinity–three persons in one God.

 

[daler]

Yes because they are not the same person. They are the Trinity–three persons in one God.

PR
. You do understand how confusing that can be to some of us, right?

. To say that God is a “person” then “three” “persons” …

. I can fully understand and appreciate how that worked in one sense, for a time, because as a child I was taught that and it never bothered me until I grew up and developed a different perspective, I suppose.

. No offense intended here, but just trying to communicate

 

[Servant19]

Yes because they are not the same person. They are the Trinity–three persons in one God.

PR, in the context of my dialogue with Steve, which gave rise to my post you quoted, I think your response is very confusing.

Steve was referring to Baha’u’llah conversing with Himself in a sense. I simply responded that Jesus did the same. How is this related to the Trinity?

 

[PRmerger]

PR
. You do understand how confusing that can be to some of us, right?

. To say that God is a “person” then “three” “persons” …

. I can fully understand and appreciate how that worked in one sense, for a time, because as a child I was taught that and it never bothered me until I grew up and developed a different perspective, I suppose.

. No offense intended here, but just trying to communicate

I can see how it can be confusing.

However, to have the paradigm “I don’t understand, therefore it must not be true” is to be very, very mistaken.

The dogma of the Trinity is a Revelation that comes from God.

And, as St.Augustine said, “Si comprehendis, non est Deus”: if you understand him, he is not God

 

[PRmerger]

PR, in the context of my dialogue with Steve, which gave rise to my post you quoted, I think your response is very confusing.

Steve was referring to Baha’u’llah conversing with Himself in a sense. I simply responded that Jesus did the same. How is this related to the Trinity?

Because Jesus was not conversing with Himself. He was speaking to God, His Father.

 

[daler]

Because Jesus was not conversing with Himself. He was speaking to God, His Father.

PR,
. In the simple construct of language, which purpose is to communicate effectively, this clearly implies multiple deities.

. If God (Jesus) was not conversing with Himself (God), then He (God) was speaking to God (not Jesus).

. Long, long ago, in the Kentucky Derby, there was a race between a young stallion, an older Horse that could never be seen, and yet another which could only be felt as the wind. How many horses were there?

.

 

[Servant19]

Because Jesus was not conversing with Himself. He was speaking to God, His Father.

…and so was Baha’u’llah, as I pointed out to Steve

 

[daler]

Because Jesus was not conversing with Himself. He was speaking to God, His Father.

. I was confined to the hayloft in the barn where there was no light, but was told the sun was shining. My father cared about me, and wanted me to bask in the sunlight, though I could not move, for my back was injured. So he sent a big mirror and placed it just outside the barn, where a little light would reach me through the western door opening to the loft, where the hay was pitched. The rays of the sun reached me where I was at, both warming me and giving me light to read by, and I was happy, for I could see the sun in the mirror.

. Though the mirror was not the sun, still I could behold the image of the sun in the mirror which my father had sent me. The rays emanated from the sun, yet the sun itself did not enter the barn, but remained far, far away, in the sky beyond where I could go. The sun was greater than the mirror, yet was in it, and I could see. I said, “My mirror and my sun!” How happy I was.

. So I told others about it, how I saw the image of the sun in the mirror and felt the warmth of its rays and was given light, though I was in the darkness of the barn. Some understood, and walked into the light, illumined and warmed by the heat of the spirit of the sun. Others rebelled, and broke the mirror, thinking that they had destroyed the sun. Yet I knew the sun was still there, and had only destroyed the mirror.

. Before this happened, the mirror spoke to me and said, the father will send you another mirror, and the rays of the sun said, “I shall return when the new mirror arrives, whom the father shall send from the store, for he has already ordered it and has given the date of its arrival and the place where it shall come. Look to Daniel, the UPS guy.”

. When the mirror arrived, most were looking at the door to the loft where the old mirror had been, but it wasn’t there, even though the arrival date had come, as was posted in the book. A few, however, checked the order carefully and found that it was to come from the east window, and indeed, found it there.

. And when they tried to tell others, “The new mirror has arrived”, most refused even to look, and repeatedly scoffed at the ones who had found it, were bathed in the light, and warmed by its rays. and they lived happily ever after…

 

[Servant19]

Servant, I am still waiting for you to address this apparent contradiction.

Hi Steve, my thoughts in saying the apparent contradictions was to say that no one denies that when He said “I and the Father are One” He is claiming to be God WITHOUT using the word “God”

That’s basically all I was saying. That’s why I asked for a reference to Jesus claiming that He is God (rather than the Father) since I still see that there is a distinction in Catholicism about who is God and who is the Father, since God is 3 Persons, yet the Father is a singular Person.

Can this be explained at all?

I have yet to receive a satisfying answer to this question, and honestly don’t think I ever will from Catholicism.

In the Baha’i Faith, its very simple. God is the Father. THEY are one. We use their names interchangeably (along with Allah).

The Manifestations of God are not God/Father/Allah, yet they occupy an eternal dominion which is still a realm that is created from God/Father/Allah. (Baha’is and Sufis call this realm “lahut”). They are ONE BEING in this eternal realm, yet are distinct when they are “humanised” throughout history. To all sense and purposes, to human beings like you and I, they are God. We have absolutely no other way of approaching even an inkling of an understanding of God/Father/Allah were it not for these Manifestations of God.

To me this makes sense. But when you start saying that the Father is this, and God is that, it all starts to unravel, unless of course you have a satisfying answer for my question I posed a couple of paragraphs above?

God bless

 

[Porknpie]

Servant19 - I might give that a go too

Adam … …marraige…promise of redemption …s abbath
Noah … …household …promise of no future flood … …the rainbow
Abraham…tribe…promise of the seed to outnumber the stars…circumcision
Moses…nation…promise of land for obediance…pas sover
David…kingdom…promise of eternal future kingdom & messiah…throne
Jesus… Catholic Church/world…promise of eternal life & resurrection…the Eucharist

Baha’u’llah …Fulfillment…Foundations for One God One Faith…Divine Institutions

It would be interesting to put the Bab in there as well, IMHO - This could be also interesting…

Bab…Universal…Door to fulfillment…Keys to understanding !!!

Regards Tony

Tony & Servant -



The Catholic Church already means “Universal” so the covenant type is already taken. Read Here for the word definition. There must be something greater for your theology to hold. Fulfillment wouldn’t be a covenant type…

On the covenant promise, what is greater than the Christian promise of resurrection and eternal life? I’m not clear on how your answers provide clarity on this question.

On the covenant sign, Catholics receive the body, blood, soul and divinity of the resurrected Lord as a means of receiving his grace for our salvation. Do you believe the signs Divine Institutions and Keys to Understanding is Greater? What can be greater than receiving God and his dwelling within us?

PnP

 

[Servant19]

Tony & Servant -



The Catholic Church already means “Universal” so the covenant type is already taken. Read Here for the word definition. There must be something greater for your theology to hold. Fulfillment wouldn’t be a covenant type…

On the covenant promise, what is greater than the Christian promise of resurrection and eternal life? I’m not clear on how your answers provide clarity on this question.

On the covenant sign, Catholics receive the body, blood, soul and divinity of the resurrected Lord as a means of receiving his grace for our salvation. Do you believe the signs Divine Institutions and Keys to Understanding is Greater? What can be greater than receiving God and his dwelling within us?

PnP

Hi Pork, I think its fair to say that the question posed is really not something that Baha’is really think about. We don’t really “categorize” religions in this way at all. There was and always is only One Eternal Faith of God, and His Will is applied slightly differently from age to age as humanity evolves materially, spiritually and on a social consciousness level. This “application” of the Will of God is manifested in the major global religions, and it is today culminated in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah which every day is applied to the interactions taking place on a global level and ultimately will culminate in the unification of the human race.

There is great praise, I believe, from God, in contributing selflessly towards such a noble endeavour, wouldn’t you agree?

I also truly believe that eternal life was available to all BEFORE the coming of Christ, and to be honest the promise of resurrection was not the real reason why Jesus was revered so much by the Apostles DURING His lifetime, before His death. Jesus taught the Will of God for a specific age, and by golly, it was powerful and all-embracing

There is no competition in the endeavours, dear Pork, so to say which is greater, brings with it a lessening of spirit, in my humble opinion.

"For whosoever shall do the Will of God, he is my brother, and my sister and my mother " - Mark 3:35

 

[Porknpie]

Hi Pork, I think its fair to say that the question posed is really not something that Baha’is really think about.

Understand this but it’s a good way to think about how God has revealed himself over the generations and the convenants he has made with man.

We don’t really “categorize” religions in this way at all. There was and always is only One Eternal Faith of God, and His Will is applied slightly differently from age to age as humanity evolves materially, spiritually and on a social consciousness level.

And Catholics believe that salvation history culminates in Jesus Christ and his creating his Catholic Church on earth. As he says on the cross, “It is Finished”. We now await his second coming.

This “application” of the Will of God is manifested in the major global religions,

obviously we disagree here as this means the will of God has led to conficting truths. God can not contradict himself. One can reason to believe this, looking at the laws of science as an example, to understand that science can not contradict itself. Therefore, that who created science, God, can not contradict himself.

and it is today culminated in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah which every day is applied to the interactions taking place on a global level and ultimately will culminate in the unification of the human race.

What’s the definition of this unification? Sorry if I missed this in earlier post(s).

There is great praise, I believe, from God, in contributing selflessly towards such a noble endeavour, wouldn’t you agree?

We (many) will see God face to face in heaven as Jesus has made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

I also truly believe that eternal life was available to all BEFORE the coming of Christ

Are you getting this from scripture? If so where? God’s revelation in the New Testament is that he wills all to be saved and Jesus brought salvation to the Jews and Gentiles alike.

and to be honest the promise of resurrection was not the real reason why Jesus was revered so much by the Apostles DURING His lifetime, before His death.

True. The apostles did not understand his resurrection until after it happened. But here’s what St. Peter believed:

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare′a Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli′jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”** 15 **He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[c] 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. **18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the powers of death[f] shall not prevail against it.[g] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[h] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Jesus taught the Will of God for a specific age, and by golly, it was powerful and all-embracing

No. Jesus as the Son of God, The Word, has taught the will of God, his will through all the ages. That’s part of the point of the covenant theology questions.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is no competition in the endeavours, dear Pork, so to say which is greater, brings with it a lessening of spirit, in my humble opinion.

No competition…just love of Truth. Truth can not be in conflict.

"For whosoever shall do the Will of God, he is my brother, and my sister and my mother " - Mark 3:35

The will of God includes for all to be members of the Church that he established for our salvation… especially so to receive the sacraments, the means by which he gives us grace. Receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is a great place to start.

PnP**

 

[aragonjohn1]

aragonjohn1 - Thank you for the questions

There are a lot of writings in the Baha’i Faith and there are a still a lot yet to be translated. The main works can be found here - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ - This link is to the Kitáb-i-Íqán, which is an important work if one wants to know how all religions are One.

Yes there is degrees of Morality and as you can appreciate as lovers of God we are called to the Higher degree of Morality. What I would consider to be healthy is that one strives with all their being to obtain to the highest Morality. Where a person is on this scale then becomes a issue between them and God. It is not up to me to Judge another!

There are no borrowed Truths. Truth is one and that is God. Truth only varies because of out limited understanding. It is because of our Limited understanding that God sends His messengers to remind us of our Purpose, that is to Know and Love God. To do this we have to know our true selves. All religions have their foundations in the Faith that came before them. This is called progressive revelation. As man understands more, more religious concepts are laid out in front of him.

There is only one God - The God of all Faiths. That they differ is only because our limited understanding.

Hope that answers your questions

Regards Tony

Thank you this reply clears up most of more than a few aspects of questions.

God bless

 

[aragonjohn1]

Aragon John asked about the Baha’i Writings and Tony referred to

reference.bahai.org/en/

You can find English translations of the Arabic and Farsi and the Writings in Arabic and Farsi… there is also a search engine so you can see topically what the Writings have.

There also a good introductory book that’s been a classic introduction to the Baha’i Faith for many years at

bahai-library.org/books/new.era/

and is also at

reference.bahai.org/en/t/je/BNE/

Thank you also for your help in the search for Truth.

God bless

 

[aragonjohn1]

PR
. You do understand how confusing that can be to some of us, right?

. To say that God is a “person” then “three” “persons” …

. I can fully understand and appreciate how that worked in one sense, for a time, because as a child I was taught that and it never bothered me until I grew up and developed a different perspective, I suppose.

. No offense intended here, but just trying to communicate

The simplest term i can think of in Catholicism is to describe the One true God is three persons united as one in perfect love. Hope and all other goodnesses follow from Love.

God bless

 

[tonyfish58]

The simplest term i can think of in Catholicism is to describe the One true God is three persons united as one in perfect love. Hope and all other goodnesses follow from Love.

God bless

Love is the Key

Regards Tony