Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[daler]

The simplest term i can think of in Catholicism is to describe the One true God is three persons united as one in perfect love. Hope and all other goodnesses follow from Love.

God bless

Aragonjohn,
. Sometimes, I honestly think that God means and intends for us to wrestle with His “Identity”, to always be “reaching”, and never be complacent, whether intellectually or emotionally.
. We can never get to the point where we say: “I understand God”, because that would be like putting Him in our pocket and walking away, if you know what I mean.
. So we try on these hats of description, in our attempt to comprehend what on one level will always be incomprehensible to us.

. As much as we “can” comprehend (and even that is limited), is revealed in the Person of His Manifestation (in Baha’i terminology), Who is His Representative on earth, i.e. the Word, through Whom the world was created.
. It took me a long time to get that last aspect through my rational brain, as I could not conceive of the how that concept worked, but when I began to comprehend that the Manifestation of God is infinitely more than human, it made started making sense to me.

. Then, I started to view the Spiritual “Sun” as brighter and greater than the physical “sun”, without which the earth would be cold and barren (physically), and also the idea of eternity started becoming logical once the “physical” side of reality was seen as a temporary condition and understood as such. Does this make sense?

 

[fathercome]

Baha’u’llah claims that the Son (Jesus, the Spirit of God, the Word of God) was praying to Him from the cross “My God, My God why have you forsaken me.” Baha’u’llah claims that it was for the love of Baha that Jesus consented to be crucified on the cross. Similarly, Baha’u’llah claims to have been the Glory that Moses spoke to on Mount Sinai in the Burning Bush. Thus it is said that Baha’u’llah, in a sense, is speaking to Himself in the Books and Tablets He revealed. In the “Fire Tablet”, for instance, it is the voice of the Pen of Baha’u’llah that cries and complains of His persecution. In response, the voice of the Tongue of Baha’u’llah calms Baha’u’llah’s Pen by saying that He hears His cries and complaints, and that it is because of darkness that light is able to be perceived. In essence, Baha’u’llah is speaking to Himself in this Prayer and in all the other prayers found in the “Prayers and Meditations of Baha’u’llah”. Even more, Baha’u’llah responds to a questioner who asks Him to reveal the identity of the One that speaks to the Temple (the self of the Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah) in His mighty “Tablet of the Temple”. In response, Baha’u’llah proclaims that it is His Own Voice that speaks to His Temple, that He is speaking to Himself. All the Days of the Manifestations of God, like the Days of Jesus Christ, are said to be the Day of God. But, This Day of Baha’u’llah is said to be a unique Day, an Incomparable Day, the Day promised in all the scriptures sent down in the past, the Day of the Self of God Himself. This Most Great Day is the Day of the Most Great Name, it is the day of the appearance of the One who Moses, Abraham, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and the Bab had longed to witness face-to-face, The Day of the One Who is Praised in every page of every religious scripture of the past. This is the Unique Day of Encounter, the Day of Judgment, the Day of God Himself.

Even more clearly, Baha’u’llah claims that this Day is the Day of the “Most Great Spirit” who created the Holy Spirit itself. The greateness of This Day is such that words and attributes and names cannot contain it. This is the Day of the Appearance of One who is Beyond Contemplation and Names and Attributes.

In This Most Great Day was born He who neither gives birth nor is born !

O Baha !
Men say that Thou art God,
and I am moved to anger:
remove the veil and submit no longer to the disgrace of mere Godhead!

This is the Day of He who transcends Names and Attributes!

 

[Servant19]

Understand this but it’s a good way to think about how God has revealed himself over the generations and the convenants he has made with man.

Thankyou Pork. In Baha’i theology, the covenant that God is made with man is that He will always provide man with guidance in terms of His Will from age to age.

And Catholics believe that salvation history culminates in Jesus Christ and his creating his Catholic Church on earth. As he says on the cross, “It is Finished”. We now await his second coming.

In no way do Baha’i’s disagree, there is personal salvation found in the sacrifices of Jesus Christ. May I ask you Pork, was there no salvation for the saintly figures who lived and died by the Will of God prior to Jesus’ coming? If not, then how does this reflect on an all-loving and all-just God?

obviously we disagree here as this means the will of God has led to conficting truths. God can not contradict himself. One can reason to believe this, looking at the laws of science as an example, to understand that science can not contradict itself. Therefore, that who created science, God, can not contradict himself.

Can you point out what are some of the contradictions that you are reflecting on when you say this please Pork?

On another note science often contradicts itself. Scientific realities are relative not absolute. Heavier than air objects flying in the sky was once written off as impossible.

Part of my primary school curriculum instilled the knowledge into its students that the nucleus of an atom “contains no electrons”…we were told otherwise later on but I guess what I am saying is that the “educational” facility that God has created in His religions are intended to “bring the audience of peoples receiving God’s message out of stooped ignorance and advance a small step closer to Truth”

 

[Servant19]

cont…

What’s the definition of this unification? Sorry if I missed this in earlier

info.bahai.org/article-1-7-7-1.html
reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-56.html

We (many) will see God face to face in heaven as Jesus has made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Baha’is believe that the forgiveness of sins has been established already. The Will of God for this Day, this unique Day is to contribute to the best of our ability towards the societal salvation which Baha’u’llah has heralded. He says:

---

"Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. "***

Strong language, for sure, but the need is critical, as can be seen in a simple relection on the reality of society today.

Are you getting this from scripture? If so where? God’s revelation in the New Testament is that he wills all to be saved and Jesus brought salvation to the Jews and Gentiles alike.

Yes, the scriptures of religions which were born “prior” to Christianity. Both Buddhism and Hindusim have salvation theologies. As Baha’is we believe that salvation comes about upon recognizing the manifestation of God for the day in which one lives, as well as, following His teachings.

True. The apostles did not understand his resurrection until after it happened. But here’s what St. Peter believed:

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare′a Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli′jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”** 15 **He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[c] 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. ****18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the powers of death[f] shall not prevail against it.[g] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[h] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

So how did the Apostles believe Jesus to the point of declaring that He was the Son of God “during His lifetime” before His death or resurrection?

This is critical in my humble opinion
Porknpie;11293561:

No. Jesus as the Son of God, The Word, has taught the will of God, his will through all the ages. That’s part of the point of the covenant theology questions.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word of God is absolutely all we can know of God, and in reality it is the Word that puts the letters B and E together. The Word creates.

Baha’is believe that the Word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ and Baha’u’llah. God is All-Knowing

What Baha’is cannot accept as the Word of God is any doctrines etc provided by any entities outside of the Manifestation of God. Even the Apostles did not reveal the Word of God. In the Christian Dispensation that resided with Jesus and Jesus alone.

No competition…just love of Truth. Truth can not be in conflict.

The will of God includes for all to be members of the Church that he established for our salvation… especially so to receive the sacraments, the means by which he gives us grace. Receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is a great place to start.

PnP

I can assure you that Divine grace is aplenty outside of the Church.

May I ask you, how do you know you are the exclusive recipients of grace? What does “receiving grace” feel like?
For me personally, I cannot imagine a grace so potent, so embracing as that when I read my daily Baha’i obligatory prayer during the Baha’i month of fasting…I cannot imagine a love like this…

 

[rinnie]

cont…

info.bahai.org/article-1-7-7-1.html
reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-56.html


Baha’is believe that the forgiveness of sins has been established already. The Will of God for this Day, this unique Day is to contribute to the best of our ability towards the societal salvation which Baha’u’llah has heralded. He says:

---

"Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. "***

Strong language, for sure, but the need is critical, as can be seen in a simple relection on the reality of society today.

Yes, the scriptures of religions which were born “prior” to Christianity. Both Buddhism and Hindusim have salvation theologies. As Baha’is we believe that salvation comes about upon recognizing the manifestation of God for the day in which one lives, as well as, following His teachings.

So how did the Apostles believe Jesus to the point of declaring that He was the Son of God “during His lifetime” before His death or resurrection?

This is critical in my humble opinion

The Word of God is absolutely all we can know of God, and in reality it is the Word that puts the letters B and E together. The Word creates.

Baha’is believe that the Word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ and Baha’u’llah. God is All-Knowing

What Baha’is cannot accept as the Word of God is any doctrines etc provided by any entities outside of the Manifestation of God. Even the Apostles did not reveal the Word of God. In the Christian Dispensation that resided with Jesus and Jesus alone.

I can assure you that Divine grace is aplenty outside of the Church.

May I ask you, how do you know you are the exclusive recipients of grace? What does “receiving grace” feel like?
For me personally, I cannot imagine a grace so potent, so embracing as that when I read my daily Baha’i obligatory prayer during the Baha’i month of fasting…I cannot imagine a love like this…

You know the song amazing grace how sweet the sound… thats pretty much it!

It grace that opens eyes of the blind. Its being able to see the same thing day after day after day in a new light.

Showing you what you missed right in front of you.

Its being able to really wake up and want to help people and really want absolutely nothing in return.

 

[SteveVH]

Did Jesus not pray to God on the cross before He drew His last breath?

Yes, of course he did. He is a different divine Person than is the Father. They have a relationship, Father and Son.

But the Baha’i reject the Trinity. Therefore, if Baha’u’llah claims to be God, which he plainly did, then to whom is he speaking when he speaks to God?

 

[fathercome]

Yes, of course he did. He is a different divine Person than is the Father. They have a relationship, Father and Son.

But the Baha’i reject the Trinity. Therefore, if Baha’u’llah claims to be God, which he plainly did, then to whom is he speaking when he speaks to God?

Dear Friend and Fellow-Journeyman toward the One Goal,

Baha’u’llah was asked this questions, and He answered that He was actually speaking to Himself. He clarified His statement by saying that if He had refrained from occasionally speaking of Himself in the third-person, many of the people would have been come frightened and would have failed to emulate His teachings, and abide by His word. He uses the analogy of a parrot and the trainer of the parrot. The trainer, He explains in His analogy, hides behind a mirror and speaks to the parrot, and the parrot, seeing a reflection of itself in the mirror, thinks that there is another parrot in the cage speaking since he doesn’t see the person hiding behind the mirror. Thus the parrot learns to speak. Baha’u’llah says that man is like a parrot, and would fear to approach Baha’u’llah if He had suddenly come out from behind the mirror.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, of course he did. He is a different divine Person than is the Father. They have a relationship, Father and Son.

But the Baha’i reject the Trinity. Therefore, if Baha’u’llah claims to be God, which he plainly did, then to whom is he speaking when he speaks to God?

To God

Bahaullah is not speaking to Himself.

But Jesus must’ve been speaking to Himself, because He is God, right? I think I read the words “Jesus is God” at least 100 times in this thread.

 

[Servant19]

Dear Friend and Fellow-Journeyman toward the One Goal,

Baha’u’llah was asked this questions, and He answered that He was actually speaking to Himself.

fathercome, what’s your reference for this?

 

[Servant19]

You know the song amazing grace how sweet the sound… thats pretty much it!

It grace that opens eyes of the blind. Its being able to see the same thing day after day after day in a new light.

Showing you what you missed right in front of you.

Its being able to really wake up and want to help people and really want absolutely nothing in return.

Hi rinnie, I can categorically inform you as fact, that there is an overwhelming ABUNDANCE of grace showered upon Baha’is, therefore

After all, how else are we going to unify the human race for eternity?

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’is believe that it is the Father standing in front of the Mirror

Then we have a clear difference in our beliefs concerning the nature of Jesus as we believe that Jesus is not just a reflection, but actually the one, true God who became flesh and walked among us.

I think the logic is that once something can be weighed, measured etc it immediately becomes capable of being subjected to human limitations.

Cannot an unlimited God become flesh if that is what he chooses to do? This does not mean that he must give up his divinity in order to do so. Jesus humbled himself to become man. By becoming man he voluntarily took on the limitations of human flesh and mortality; indeed, he suffered and died. At the same time he commanded the wind and sea, healed the lame, gave sight to the blind. And then, he rose from the dead, with his glorified human body which would never again be subject to death and corruption.

God is not limited. Something that is measured is by logic, defined. God is not defineable.

Nor was Jesus limited. He subjected himself. He very well could have turned the Roman soldiers to stone and walked away. Instead he voluntarily gave his own life so that we might have life.

In Bahai terms, the words Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, All-Just, All-Loving, All-Wise etc etc are used to describe God, but these words are used purely so as we do not assign “imperfections” onto Him, but in reality God is not any of these things, it’s beyond any words.

As a human being, He would become easy to describe with words, and immediately we go to our understandings of what God is “not”

We would agree that any human attempt at defining or describing God can only diminish his true essence; it always falls short.

Definitions are very important, and I still maintain that some terms have different definitions within our two respective religions. Maybe that’s a task we need to undertake to get to the bottom of all this

I would agree. As far as understanding the Trinity one must understand philosophical terms such as “Person”, “Being”, “Substance”, “Divinity”, “Consubstantial”, etc… This information is widely available and even a few minutes of research would yield mountains of information.

…except that you, as a claimant did not have thousands upon thousands of souls willing to give up their lives rather than recant their Faith in you. That counts for a huge lot I think…

Hey, it was just revealed to me. Give me a little time, after all even Jesus started with only twelve, right?

 

[fathercome]

fathercome, what’s your reference for this?

This is from an untranslated Tablet of Baha’u’llah in the Arabic.

 

[fathercome]

To God

Bahaullah is not speaking to Himself.

But Jesus must’ve been speaking to Himself, because He is God, right? I think I read the words “Jesus is God” at least 100 times in this thread.

Baha’u’llah proclaims that the day of every Manifestation of God is the Day of God. But He announces that This Day of the Most Great Name is distinct and unique among all the Days. This is the Day of God Himself as announced and promised in the scriptures of all religions.

 

[Nick44]

Yes, of course he did. He is a different divine Person than is the Father. They have a relationship, Father and Son.

But the Baha’i reject the Trinity. Therefore, if Baha’u’llah claims to be God, which he plainly did, then to whom is he speaking when he speaks to God?

Steve, you ask a question, receive an answer and then ask the same question again (hoping for a different answer?) In my understanding of Baha’i belief, Baha’u’llah is NOT God (in His Essence) but is the closest that any created thing can get to God, therefore, He IS God in relation to us. There are three realities. 1. The World of God, where The Essence of God resides alone, and can only be experienced or understood by Himself. 2. The world of the Kingdom, where the realities (The Word) of all the Manifestations of God reside and where all creation is generated from. 3. The world of creation, where the universe(s), all created things and we reside. There is (and never will be) no direct tie between #1 and #3 and Kingdom #2 is the mediator between the two.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Friend and Fellow-Journeyman toward the One Goal,

Baha’u’llah was asked this questions, and He answered that He was actually speaking to Himself. He clarified His statement by saying that if He had refrained from occasionally speaking of Himself in the third-person, many of the people would have been come frightened and would have failed to emulate His teachings, and abide by His word. He uses the analogy of a parrot and the trainer of the parrot. The trainer, He explains in His analogy, hides behind a mirror and speaks to the parrot, and the parrot, seeing a reflection of itself in the mirror, thinks that there is another parrot in the cage speaking since he doesn’t see the person hiding behind the mirror. Thus the parrot learns to speak. Baha’u’llah says that man is like a parrot, and would fear to approach Baha’u’llah if He had suddenly come out from behind the mirror.

Thanks, fathercome. This would seem to be more consistent with Baha’u’llah’s claims. If this is accurate then all questions asked by the Baha’a of Jesus would also apply to Baha’u’llah as well (i.e. can God be measured? Is God limited by human flesh?, etc.) The difference, however is that Jesus rose bodily from the dead. Baha’u’llah is still in the ground.

 

[fathercome]

Moreover, Baha’u’llah proclaims that This Day is the Day of the Most Great Spirit who created the Holy Spirit.

The claim is of most striking character.

“The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. And that innate and untaught nature (i.e. the Holy Spirit) in its essence is called into being by the verses of God, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: This nature (i.e. the Holy Spirit) prideth itself in its relation to Our transcendent Truth (i.e. the Most Great Spirit), whilst We, for Our part, glory neither in it nor in aught else, for all beside Myself hath been created through the potency of My word, could ye but understand.”

• Baha’u’llah, Suriy-i-Haykal

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, you ask a question, receive an answer and then ask the same question again (hoping for a different answer?) In my understanding of Baha’i belief, Baha’u’llah is NOT God (in His Essence) but is the closest that any created thing can get to God, therefore, He IS God in relation to us. There are three realities. 1. The World of God, where The Essence of God resides alone, and can only be experienced or understood by Himself. 2. The world of the Kingdom, where the realities (The Word) of all the Manifestations of God reside and where all creation is generated from. 3. The world of creation, where the universe(s), all created things and we reside. There is (and never will be) no direct tie between #1 and #3 and Kingdom #2 is the mediator between the two.

When you and fathercome get this straightened out, let us know and then we can have a coherent conversation. At this point it seems that you have some discrepancies as to what it is that you actually believe concerning the divinity of Baha’u’llah.

 

[fathercome]

When you and fathercome get this straightened out, let us know and then we can have a coherent conversation. At this point it seems that you have some discrepancies as to what it is that you actually believe concerning the divinity of Baha’u’llah.

Dear Friend Steve,

One thing that distinguishes the faith of Baha’u’llah from past religions is that Baha’u’llah Himself allowed differences of beliefs regarding His own station. He said that the view you see in most Baha’i publications is equally acceptable as the view that I am spelling out here. This is stated by Baha’u’llah in a couple of His untranslated Persian/Arabic Tablets.

The faith of Baha’u’llah really considers the concept of Unity as supreme, even above our differing views of the divinity of Baha’u’llah.

 

[arthra]

This is from an untranslated Tablet of Baha’u’llah in the Arabic.

fathercome…

What is your source?

 

[fathercome]

fathercome…

What is your source?

Dear Catholic and Baha’i friends,

I am very very sorry… please ignore me, ignore my messages… I do not intend to be a cause of agitation and difficulty…