Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Sen_McGlinn]

Amen!
Of course, sometimes truth and unity are not exclusive.

But sometimes it is.

To wit: dialogue with the Rev. Fred Phelps.

What is the Bahai paradigm regarding what this man proclaims vis a vis truth and unity?

I had to google him. If wikipedia is being fair, he needs a heavy dose of Bahai anti-prejudice propaganda, more than most of God’s chil’n.

The Bahai paradigm (exemplar of the Bahai life) is Abdu’l-Baha, whose rule seems to have been, “never take it personally.”

By responding with love and a generous spirit to those who are mean-spirited and hateful, their hearts are sometimes changed – and they are in any case made to look ridiculous

 

[Servant19]

Yes it would. Do you realize in Iran the Mullahs and religious institutions of their brand of Islam are in charge of the children’s education there? Do you not realize that the Iranian children are subject to the influence of these teachers every day? Baha’i children are harassed, bullied, punished, singled-out, by their teachers and principals in their schools? Do Baha’i parents in Iran prevent their children from attending school where they hear that Baha’u’llah was the Supreme Manifestation of Satan, nay Satan Himself, the Enemy of Islam and Chief-Spy of the West and of Israel, the taking of whose blood is a virtue and religious right? Associating with a Baha’i and befriending a Baha’i is considered a Sin in Islam.

In fact, Baha’i children are today, in Iran, subject to teachers far greater and stronger than Phelps. Iranian Phelps are supported by the police, the military, and the Supreme Leader Khamenei. And yet Baha’i are obedient to their government peaceful citizen of their nation, strive for the better of their economy and society.

Ya Baha’ul-Abha!!

I think the meaning of “unity” is being re-defined by Baha’is

 

[Nick44]

NO.

While Baha’u’llah teaches that Unity is very important, He also counsels wisdom and moderation in all things. We can agree that Phelps and his ‘following’ have some serious issues.

I would add that your question asked if one would invite Phelps to preach to their children and I said “NO”. However, I would have no problem of having a conversation with him, if only to suggest there might be a more fruitful path to travel.

 

[fathercome]

I would add that your question asked if one would invite Phelps to preach to their children and I said “NO”. However, I would have no problem of having a conversation with him, if only to suggest there might be a more fruitful path to travel.

Dear Preferred Friend Nick !!

Please don’t take my response in opposition against the response you provided, nor as an attempt by this lowly servant of Yours as a way to exalt myself (a self of nothingness and lowliness) over You. my response was a humble offering and nothing more.

 

[SteveVH]

Ya Baha’ul-Abha!!

I think the meaning of “unity” is being re-defined by Baha’is

I would agree with you. Not a good thing. When one defines a word or expression differently than the rest of the world there is miscommunication at best, and outright deception at worst.

Here are three common definitions of unity:

1.condition of being one: the state or condition of being one
2.combination into one: the combining or joining of separate things or entities to form one
3.something whole: something whole or complete formed by combining or joining separate things or entities

Why don’t you, in the interest of clarity, give us the Baha’i definition?

Thanks.

 

[Nick44]

Dear Preferred Friend Nick !!

Please don’t take my response in opposition against the response you provided, nor as an attempt by this lowly servant of Yours as a way to exalt myself (a self of nothingness and lowliness) over You. my response was a humble offering and nothing more.

I haven’t taken offense at anything you’ve said, Hey, we’re all in this life together; slowly making our way and doing the best that we can.

 

[fathercome]

I would agree with you. Not a good thing. When one defines a word or expression differently than the rest of the world there is miscommunication at best, and outright deception at worst.

Here are three common definitions of unity:

1.condition of being one: the state or condition of being one
2.combination into one: the combining or joining of separate things or entities to form one
3.something whole: something whole or complete formed by combining or joining separate things or entities

Why don’t you, in the interest of clarity, give us the Baha’i definition?

Thanks.

All mankind, is, in this Day, regarded as one human family, regardless of religious affiliation or belief. This Day is the day of the Religion of all religions, and the Faith of all faiths.

“The Faith of God hath in this day been made manifest. He Who is the Lord of the world is come and hath shown the way. His faith is the faith of **benevolence **and His religion is the religion of forbearance. This faith bestoweth eternal life and this religion enableth mankind to dispense with all else. It verily embraceth all faiths and all religions. Take hold thereof and guard it well.” - Baha’u’llah, Official Translation, Tabernacle of Unity.

 

[Nick44]

I would agree with you. Not a good thing. When one defines a word or expression differently than the rest of the world there is miscommunication at best, and outright deception at worst.

Here are three common definitions of unity:

1.condition of being one: the state or condition of being one
2.combination into one: the combining or joining of separate things or entities to form one
3.something whole: something whole or complete formed by combining or joining separate things or entities

Why don’t you, in the interest of clarity, give us the Baha’i definition?

Thanks.

This article explores the different aspects of the Baha’i concept of unity:

rsmd.net/research/unity-principle

 

[Servant19]

I would agree with you. Not a good thing. When one defines a word or expression differently than the rest of the world there is miscommunication at best, and outright deception at worst.

Here are three common definitions of unity:

1.condition of being one: the state or condition of being one
2.combination into one: the combining or joining of separate things or entities to form one
3.something whole: something whole or complete formed by combining or joining separate things or entities

Why don’t you, in the interest of clarity, give us the Baha’i definition?

Thanks.

Dear Steve, the Bahai definition can only be experienced as one aligns ones life closer and closer to the unity envisaged by Baha’u’llah.

In all honesty, unity, according to the Bahai teachings is not far off what you have defined there, but what do those definitions ACTUALLY MEAN?

One definition of unity, as provided by the empirical evidence of the persecuted Baha’is of Iran is that NOTHING, not even blasphemies against Baha’u’llah, gets in the way of showing forth absolute love and humility to those that blaspheme, violate, for Baha’is have complete faith in the reality that man is a “mine rich in gems of inestimable value” (Baha’u’llah) and that what we see around us in the world today is nothing but a “distortion of the human spirit” (Universal House of Justice).

What can un-“distort” the human spirit?

“Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom.”

Baha’u’llah furthermore goes on to say the following:

“If any man were to meditate on that which the Scriptures, sent down from the heaven of God’s holy Will, have revealed, he would readily recognize that their purpose is that all men shall be regarded as one soul, so that the seal bearing the words “The Kingdom shall be God’s” may be stamped on every heart, and the light of Divine bounty, of grace, and mercy may envelop all mankind. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” If the learned and worldly-wise men of this age were to allow mankind to inhale the fragrance of fellowship and love, every understanding heart would apprehend the meaning of true liberty, and discover the secret of undisturbed peace and absolute composure. Were the earth to attain this station and be illumined with its light it could then be truly said of it: “Thou shall see in it no hollows or rising hills.””

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Steve,

Not sure how we mis-communicated, so I apologize for that.

Certainly 2000 years of Catholic history has demonstrated the beauty and power of Jesus’s purpose to unite man with God. I’m not here to challenge Catholic belief, I am on a Catholic website after all, but I was simply presenting, without attempting to proselytize, the claims and proclamations of Baha’u’llah as they may be of interest to Christians for one or another reason, if simply only to fortify themselves against “false and deviant” teachings of a non-Catholic faith.

Not sure how else to respond to your comment without repeating myself. One thing I didn’t understand in your response is that you once again asked what the Baha’i unity is, or what is the Baha’i unity centered around. What do you mean by this question - or why did you ask this question again? I had already responded to it. Many thanks.

I will do my best to clarify my point. It seems that the Baha’i faith is based upon a certain ideal, that ideal being the unity of mankind. This is also a Catholic ideal. We strive to teach the Gospel to all nations that we all may be unified in Christ Jesus. We recognize and accept all truth, wherever it is found, in any and all religions and cultures. We also, however, recognize the error that exists outside of Christ’s Church and reject that error. We cannot tolerate falsehood for the sake of some false sense of unity. How can one say “We disagree but we are unified”? It is a self defeating statement.

So I continue to ask, in what sense are the Baha’i unified? Are they unified in the ideal of striving for “unity”? So are we. But unity in what? Our ideal is to be unified in Jesus Christ; a unity not only with each other, but with God.

Somehow, the Baha’i feel that they can be one with those who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and at the same time with those who reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. The Baha’i would claim to be one with both Christians and Muslims, for instance, when there are blatant contradictions between the two faiths. They do this by asserting that neither the Christians nor the Muslims actually understand their own prophets and then go on to reinterpret the words of these “prophets” to fit their own paradigm and then claim that they have unified Christianity and Islam.

Do you see why there might be some confusion as to just what the nature of Baha’i unity is?

 

[fathercome]

Do you see why there might be some confusion as to just what the nature of Baha’i unity is?

Yes Steve, I do see the confusion you are referring to.

I will need to meditate over your question some more before I attempt to respond to it more directly.

This very question that you have was asked by one of the leaders of the Zoroastrian community, to which Baha’u’llah responded at length. I will see what I can find in there in excerpt form that may address your question, perhaps. Actually, Baha’u’llah responded to the Zoroastrian Leader twice. The first response was not satisfactory to him, so he asked Baha’u’llah to give him a more direct answer, so Baha’u’llah answered him a second time in more detail.

I think the section in bold directly addresses your question. Please, I ask you to take a brief moment, and ponder on this text in bold - to see what really is Baha’u’llah implying here.

In Baha’u’llah’s first Tablet (His first attempt to answer him), Baha’u’llah says:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
1.5
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
1.6
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been reborn in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.

 

[fathercome]

Steve,

I also think this sentence from the selection is important:

" Witness how they [they that are intoxicated by self-conceit ] have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy. " - Baha’u’llah

 

[Servant19]

I will do my best to clarify my point. It seems that the Baha’i faith is based upon a certain ideal, that ideal being the unity of mankind. This is also a Catholic ideal. We strive to teach the Gospel to all nations that we all may be unified in Christ Jesus. We recognize and accept all truth, wherever it is found, in any and all religions and cultures. We also, however, recognize the error that exists outside of Christ’s Church and reject that error. We cannot tolerate falsehood for the sake of some false sense of unity. How can one say “We disagree but we are unified”? It is a self defeating statement.

So I continue to ask, in what sense are the Baha’i unified? Are they unified in the ideal of striving for “unity”? So are we. But unity in what? Our ideal is to be unified in Jesus Christ; a unity not only with each other, but with God.

Somehow, the Baha’i feel that they can be one with those who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and at the same time with those who reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. The Baha’i would claim to be one with both Christians and Muslims, for instance, when there are blatant contradictions between the two faiths. They do this by asserting that neither the Christians nor the Muslims actually understand their own prophets and then go on to reinterpret the words of these “prophets” to fit their own paradigm and then claim that they have unified Christianity and Islam.

Do you see why there might be some confusion as to just what the nature of Baha’i unity is?

Hi Steve,

May I ask you, let me assume for one moment that I truly believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead (a point of disharmony between our Faiths). We’re I to believe that, what does it actually MEAN, in the context of carrying out the Will of God?

Baha’is are united in ACTION, in bringing about what Jews thought Jesus was going to bring, the Kingdom of God in earth.

Baha’is are united in ACTION, in bringing about a life on earth which is so free, so loving, so peaceful and secure, and so united that our imaginations cannot fathom such an existence.

This is the meaning of Baha’u’llah’s vision of bring forth an “ever-advancing civilization”, there is no limit to how much love and unity we, as a global collective, can show one another. Once this “process” and unity of vision is established, the truth about the Divinity of all religions and their Founders will become as clear as daylight. We were all working through centuries and millennia to get to THIS Day of God…

 

[Servant19]

From my experiences of how this is being experienced globally, we as a Bahai community, globally, are seeing hoards of like-minded people (who are not registered Baha’is) coming into Bahai educational and socio-economic development projects. These are not charities or benevolent endeavours, they are educational, service, capacity building and empowerment programs…

These individuals join hands with Baha’is, and assume a role of agents for the ever-advancement of their communities, both materially and spiritually. There is no need to believe in the theology. All that is needed is to appreciate the validity of the ACTION, and to action it. The fruits of such endeavours are sufficient to convince all protagonists in these processes to recognize their divine origin…

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Steve, the Bahai definition can only be experienced as one aligns ones life closer and closer to the unity envisaged by Baha’u’llah.

In all honesty, unity, according to the Bahai teachings is not far off what you have defined there, but what do those definitions ACTUALLY MEAN?

For a Catholic it means that 1.3 billion people can all stand together and state a common belief in God, in his oneness, in his Triune nature, in his incarnation, in his reason for coming to us, in a common Baptism, and in a common destiny. It means that 1.3 billion people from every country and culture in the world will meditate on the same Scripture readings each and every day, and share in the one body of Christ in which we become true brothers and sisters with each other. What you strive for is already being accomplished in the Catholic Church, but it is a real unity, not an illusory one.

One definition of unity, as provided by the empirical evidence of the persecuted Baha’is of Iran is that NOTHING, not even blasphemies against Baha’u’llah, gets in the way of showing forth absolute love and humility to those that blaspheme, violate…

Would not this be better defined as charity; loving one’s enemies? We are to love all people, even those with whom we are not unified. The Christian faith is certainly not unified with the Baha’i or Muslim or Hindu faiths, yet we are called to love them as we love ourselves. Why confuse this with “unity”?

What can un-“distort” the human spirit?

The saving grace of Jesus Christ. That is it.

“Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom.”

We have very educated people who draw completely different conclusions. This idea that man can, through education and experience, save himself, is completely contrary to the words of Christ.

 

[fathercome]

For a Catholic it means that 1.3 billion people can all stand together and state a common belief in God, in his oneness, in his Triune nature, in his incarnation, in his reason for coming to us, in a common Baptism, and in a common destiny. It means that 1.3 billion people from every country and culture in the world will meditate on the same Scripture readings each and every day, and share in the one body of Christ in which we become true brothers and sisters with each other in. What you strive for is already being accomplished in the Catholic Church, but it is a real unity, not an illusory one. Would not this be better defined as charity; loving one’s enemies? We are to love all people, even those with whom we are not unified. The Christian faith is certainly not unified with the Baha’i or Muslim or Hindu faiths, yet we are called to love them as we love ourselves. Why confuse this with “unity”?

I really think this is a great question.

Let us re-read Steve’s question.

I will pause and consider your question, and re-read it again.

 

[fathercome]

For a Catholic it means that 1.3 billion people can all stand together and state a common belief in God, in his oneness, in his Triune nature, in his incarnation, in his reason for coming to us, in a common Baptism, and in a common destiny. It means that 1.3 billion people from every country and culture in the world will meditate on the same Scripture readings each and every day, and share in the one body of Christ in which we become true brothers and sisters with each other. What you strive for is already being accomplished in the Catholic Church, but it is a real unity, not an illusory one.

Would not this be better defined as charity; loving one’s enemies? We are to love all people, even those with whom we are not unified. The Christian faith is certainly not unified with the Baha’i or Muslim or Hindu faiths, yet we are called to love them as we love ourselves. Why confuse this with “unity”?

The saving grace of Jesus Christ. That is it.

We have very educated people who draw completely different conclusions. This idea that man can, through education and experience, save himself, is completely contrary to the words of Christ.

This is such a great question.

But when will this end? The Catholics are united around Christ, Muslims are united around the Quran, etc. Because of the convictions of each of the religions, the world itself is disunited, is it not?

So when will this disunity end? When will the Muslims, for example, leave their sub-unity and join the unity of the Catholics? And how will this come about? Or are we always destined to have two groups of humans, the Muslim and the Catholics (assuming these are the only two religions on earth).

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

May I ask you, let me assume for one moment that I truly believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead (a point of disharmony between our Faiths). We’re I to believe that, what does it actually MEAN, in the context of carrying out the Will of God?

Christ not only claimed to be God, but he proved it through his miracles, most especially the resurrection. No one ever rose from the dead of his own power. Only Christ. Ever aware that there are false prophets who would lead us away from the true God, we now know, because of the resurrection, who we should follow and to whom we should listen. We then must live according to what Jesus taught; loving God with all of our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. That is how it would work from a practical perspective.

Baha’is are united in ACTION, in bringing about what Jews thought Jesus was going to bring, the Kingdom of God in earth.

Why the Jewish perspective? Why not the Christian perspective?

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’is are united in ACTION, in bringing about a life on earth which is so free, so loving, so peaceful and secure, and so united that our imaginations cannot fathom such an existence.

And yet, when I have asked, more than a few times, for evidence that this is actually occurring, I find none presented. Is it not reasonable to assume that if the Baha’i have arrived at a way of life that so unites people that we cannot even fathom such an existence that we should have some evidence of something so astounding? Should not the rest of the world observing this way of life be running to Baha’u’llah?

As I have pointed out, there is no entity more in ACTION than the Catholic Church when it comes to bringing comfort to the afflicted, food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothing for the naked, homes for the homeless, dignity to the dying. And this we do for all people, regardless of religion or culture or social status. We are called to be Christ to all around us and the evidence of this is tangible all over the world. Where is your tangible evidence of this worldly kingdom?

 

[fathercome]

Should not the rest of the world observing this way of life be running to Baha’u’llah?

Where is your tangible evidence of this worldly kingdom?

The Baha’is have the potential to embrace both the Muslim and the Christian in spite of the differences and contradictions of religious beliefs between the Muslims and Christians. This is something neither Muslims and Christians are capable of because of the very claim, design and nature of their own scriptures, frozen in their own particular theologies. No need to worry, However, because both Christian and Muslim scriptures anticipate, in the future, the coming of the End of Times when the kingdom will be established.

The Baha’i scriptures make no such prophecies. The Baha’i scriptures claim that that End Time has already appeared that the religions have prophecied.

But of course, most of the people do not flock to Baha’u’llah. Why?

“For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness. Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.”

They ask:

Among them are those who have said: ‘Have the verses been sent down?’ ‘Hath the Hour come?’ And they say: ‘Hath the Catastrophe come to pass?’ ‘Is the Resurrection come?’ ‘Seest thou men laid low?’ ‘Have the tree-stumps been uprooted?’ They say: ‘Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?’ They say: ‘We see not the Balance.’ The trumpet asketh: ‘Hath the Bugle been sounded?’ **They who reject the truth have said: ‘When were the heavens cleft asunder?’ ** And among them is he who saith: ‘Have men been gathered together?’ ‘Hath the Book been sent down through the power of the true Faith?’ ‘Have I been assembled with others, blind?’

In response to the cry ‘We see not the Balance.’ Baha’u’llah answers thus: Say: ‘Surely, by my Lord, the God of Mercy! None can see it except such as are endued with insight.’