Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

From my experiences of how this is being experienced globally, we as a Bahai community, globally, are seeing hoards of like-minded people (who are not registered Baha’is) coming into Bahai educational and socio-economic development projects. These are not charities or benevolent endeavours, they are educational, service, capacity building and empowerment programs…

This sounds a lot like what our current American administration is promising. Where does the salvation of one’s soul fit in here? I really don’t see a need for God. Sounds like you believe we can work this out ourselves, in this earthy life.

There is no need to believe in the theology.

No need to believe in the theology? Then what need have we of the Baha’i faith at all? Why don’t you just start a political movement?

that is needed is to appreciate the validity of the ACTION, and to action it. The fruits of such endeavours are sufficient to convince all protagonists in these processes to recognize their divine origin…

And so is this what is important? That we recognize the divine origin of the fruits of these endeavors? Is not the divine origin of all things a part of “theology”. Because the message I am getting is that it really doesn’t matter what one believes about God (theology is not important). I can be an atheist and still be one with the Baha’i. Is this correct?

 

[fathercome]

So if we are setting aside conflicting theologies of the religions, then why don’t we just join a non-religious secular organization, how is this different?

The difference is that we are not making this up ourselves. Baha’u’llah was asked about the differences in religious beliefs among the religions, and He responds that God sent down all the religions with differences to address the needs of each age – He spoke to MOSES on Mount Sinai, He breathed the SPIRIT of God into the body of Jesus, He generated the HOLY SPIRIT, He sent down the QURAN to Muhammad…

In Baha’u’llah’s first Tablet to the ZOROASTRIAN leader, Baha’u’llah says:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
1.5
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
1.6
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been reborn in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.

 

[SteveVH]

The Baha’is have the potential to embrace both the Muslim and the Christian in spite of the differences and contradictions of religious beliefs between the Muslims and Christians.

The potential? Then this is something that is not now realized?

This is something neither Muslims and Christians are capable of because of the very claim, design and nature of their own scriptures, frozen in their own particular theologies.

If you mean that Muslims and Christians are incapable of holding contradictory positions simultaneously then you would be correct. One cannot simultaneously hold that Christ was crucified and that he was not.

The Baha’i scriptures make no such prophecies. The Baha’i scriptures claim that that End Time has already appeared that the religions have prophecied.

But of course, most of the people do not flock to Baha’u’llah. Why?

“For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness. Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.”

Well, its nice to know how we are really thought of. Please, can you demonstrate even one of these superstitions in which we believe and which keep us from the path of God?

In response to the cry ‘We see not the Balance.’ Baha’u’llah answers thus: Say: ‘Surely, by my Lord, the God of Mercy! None can see it except such as are endued with insight.’

This is nothing but Gnosticism. “You can’t see because you are not one of the enlightened ones”. It rears its head in various forms but always boils down to this.

 

[fathercome]

I am not familiar with the historical background of the loaded English term gnosticism, but I do know that a term used in many Baha’i texts, like the Book of Iqan and the Book of Aqdas, is “Irfan”, which has been translated into English as Knowledge or Understanding, and is a pivotal concept in the first paragraph of both Books. Perhaps Irfan means Gnosis, but may mean mysticism, perhaps.

“Superstitions” are addressed by Baha’u’llah in his tablet to the Pope. Superstitions are based on human learning or human understanding. He tells the Pope to set aside human learning to gain understanding of the Knowledge of God:

“Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge”

"Tear asunder the veils of human learning lest they hinder thee from Him Who is My name, the Self-Subsisting. "

He says that the monks pray to Him, but when He came, they turned away from Him

“In like manner, consider how numerous, in these days, are the monks who, in My Name, have secluded themselves in their churches, and who, when the appointed time was fulfilled, and We unveiled Our beauty, knew Us not, though they call upon Me at eventide and at dawn. We behold them clinging to My name, yet veiled from My Self. This, verily, is a strange thing.”

He warns:

“If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it then.”

Elsewhere, Baha’u’llah warns that should all the people of the world join together to advance a proof for their belief in God, even the combined forces will fail to produce such a proof.

 

[SteveVH]

So if we are setting aside conflicting theologies of the religions, then why don’t we just join a non-religious secular organization, how is this different?

The difference is that we are not making this up ourselves. Baha’u’llah was asked about the differences in religious beliefs among the religions, and He responds that God sent down all the religions with differences to address the needs of each age – He spoke to MOSES on Mount Sinai, He breathed the SPIRIT of God into the body of Jesus, He generated the HOLY SPIRIT, He sent down the QURAN to Muhammad…

Fathercome, I ask you to seriously consider the following:

Christian Position:
Adam and Eve sinned against God and thus lost eternal life. This sin changed human nature (and all of creation) so that it now lacked spiritual life. God, out of his great love for mankind, promised to send a Savior to restore our relationship with Him and infuse us with the supernatural life that we had lost so that we might spend eternity with Him as His son’s and daughters. The story unfolds from there. We call it the story of salvation history. Since man’s creation, we have been waiting for this Savior who God promised to send to save us from our sins and restore our relationship with the Father.

Jesus Christ is the promised one, not just for the people of his time, but for all of mankind in every age. Through the sacrifice of his holy, unblemished life, he has given us eternal life. Because there was no man righteous enough to accomplish it, God himself became man in the Person of Jesus Christ. It is accomplished, for all men of every age.

Muslim Position
Christ was not crucified for our sins, and was not resurrected. Jesus was simply another prophet. Our salvation is found in following the laws of Muhammad, not through the free gift of grace through Christ.

Now I ask you. How does one arrive at the conclusion that Christ was only necessary for the people of his time and Muhammad for his time. Either Christ is the Savior of the world or he is not. Either he was crucified, died and resurrected, or he was not. Either we are in need of salvation, or we are not.

What we have are direct contradictions concerning all time, not increasingly enlightening revelations through the various manifestations of God to address the needs of a people at a particular time.

 

[tonyfish58]

Yes it would. Do you realize in Iran the Mullahs and religious institutions of their brand of Islam are in charge of the children’s education there? Do you not realize that the Iranian children are subject to the influence of these teachers every day? Baha’i children are harassed, bullied, punished, singled-out, by their teachers and principals in their schools? Do Baha’i parents in Iran prevent their children from attending school where they hear that Baha’u’llah was the Supreme Manifestation of Satan, nay Satan Himself, the Enemy of Islam and Chief-Spy of the West and of Israel, the taking of whose blood is a virtue and religious right? Associating with a Baha’i and befriending a Baha’i is considered a Sin in Islam.

In fact, Baha’i children are today, in Iran, subject to teachers far greater and stronger than Phelps. Iranian Phelps are supported by the police, the military, and the Supreme Leader Khamenei. And yet Baha’i are obedient to their government peaceful citizen of their nation, strive for the better of their economy and society.

Unfortunately that is the sorry truth. The world is changing and hopefully only good will be practiced soon!

Well said

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

I am not familiar with the historical background of the loaded English term gnosticism, but I do know that a term used in many Baha’i texts, like the Book of Iqan and the Book of Aqdas, is “Irfan”, which has been translated into English as Knowledge or Understanding, and is a pivotal concept in the first paragraph of both Books. Perhaps Irfan means Gnosis, but may mean mysticism, perhaps.

“Superstitions” are addressed by Baha’u’llah in his tablet to the Pope. Superstitions are based on human learning or human understanding. He tells the Pope to set aside human learning to gain understanding of the Knowledge of God:

“Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge”

"Tear asunder the veils of human learning lest they hinder thee from Him Who is My name, the Self-Subsisting. "

He says that the monks pray to Him, but when He came, they turned away from Him

“In like manner, consider how numerous, in these days, are the monks who, in My Name, have secluded themselves in their churches, and who, when the appointed time was fulfilled, and We unveiled Our beauty, knew Us not, though they call upon Me at eventide and at dawn. We behold them clinging to My name, yet veiled from My Self. This, verily, is a strange thing.”

He warns:

“If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it then.”

Elsewhere, Baha’u’llah warns that should all the people of the world join together to advance a proof for their belief in God, even the combined forces will fail to produce such a proof.

Thanks, but this hardly answers my question. Please give me an example, just one, of a Catholic superstition that keeps us from the path of God? This should not be a difficult task if the words of Baha’u’llah are true. I only ask for one example.

Superstitions are based upon a misguided notion of reality, not human learning.

Thanks.

 

[fathercome]

Dear Steve,

Yes I see the issues you present in our message. The narrative that I presented, that each religion contains truth that is not for all time, but for its own particular time, is not the complete story but a bit of a more simplified version.

To resolve the internal discrepancies within this Baha’i narrative, one has to look at things from a slightly different angle.

One such alternative narrative maintains that Jesus is in fact the Word of God for all time, not just for his own era or dispensation. This narrative uses the analogy of Word and Pen, and is contained in an untranslated Tablet of Baha’u’llah “Tablet of the Pen”. Here, Baha’u’llah says that He is the Pen that generates the Word. The Pen makes contact with paper to make the Point. The first thing that is created by the Pen is the Point. If you know about the Baha’i Writings, you will see that the POINT OF CREATION is the Bab, the forerunner of Baha’u’llah. Here, the Point is the first thing that Baha’u’'llah (the Pen) creates when it touches the paper. Then is the point is stretched to form a Letter. This Letter may be Muhammad. Finally, the Letters are joined together to form the WORD, Jesus Christ. In this narrative, the Word of God is Eternally the Word of God, Jesus is Always the Son of God and His Word is valid for all time.

 

[fathercome]

Thanks, but this hardly answers my question. Please give me an example, just one, of a Catholic superstition that keeps us from the path of God? This should not be a difficult task if the words of Baha’u’llah are true. I only ask for one example.

Superstitions are based upon a misguided notion of reality, not human learning.

Thanks.

Hi,

Please consider my perspective. A superstition is anything that keeps one from recognizing Truth. If we say that Jesus is Truth, and a Jew for Judaism says that Jesus is false because He did not fulfill this and that prophecy of their Book, then this objection would be a superstition. I am sure you have seen the advertisements of the Jews for Judaism online, they have counter-points and demonstrate that Jesus is not the Messiah they are waiting for. This objection is based on human learning, not divine gnosis.

 

[tonyfish58]

One such alternative narrative maintains that Jesus is in fact the Word of God for all time, not just for his own era or dispensation. This narrative uses the analogy of Word and Pen, and is contained in an untranslated Tablet of Baha’u’llah “Tablet of the Pen”. Here, Baha’u’llah says that He is the Pen that generates the Word. The Pen makes contact with paper to make the Point. The first thing that is created by the Pen is the Point. If you know about the Baha’i Writings, you will see that the POINT OF CREATION is the Bab, the forerunner of Baha’u’llah. Here, the Point is the first thing that Baha’u’'llah (the Pen) creates when it touches the paper. Then is the point is stretched to form a Letter. This Letter may be Muhammad. Finally, the Letters are joined together to form the WORD, Jesus Christ. In this narrative, the Word of God is Eternally the Word of God, Jesus is Always the Son of God and His Word is valid for all time.

Thank you for that - Boy we miss a lot of wisdom by not speaking the language of Revelation!

And to think how many tablets have been lost to mankind over the years as we are not ready to hear it all!

Thank you for your comments, what else could I say they have addressed the questions to date.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Steve,

Yes I see the issues you present in our message. The narrative that I presented, that each religion contains truth that is not for all time, but for its own particular time, is not the complete story but a bit of a more simplified version.

To resolve the internal discrepancies within this Baha’i narrative, one has to look at things from a slightly different angle.

One such alternative narrative maintains that Jesus is in fact the Word of God for all time, not just for his own era or dispensation. This narrative uses the analogy of Word and Pen, and is contained in an untranslated Tablet of Baha’u’llah “Tablet of the Pen”. Here, Baha’u’llah says that He is the Pen that generates the Word. The Pen makes contact with paper to make the Point. The first thing that is created by the Pen is the Point. If you know about the Baha’i Writings, you will see that the POINT OF CREATION is the Bab, the forerunner of Baha’u’llah. Here, the Point is the first thing that Baha’u’'llah (the Pen) creates when it touches the paper. Then is the point is stretched to form a Letter. This Letter may be Muhammad. Finally, the Letters are joined together to form the WORD, Jesus Christ. In this narrative, the Word of God is Eternally the Word of God, Jesus is Always the Son of God and His Word is valid for all time.

If Jesus is the Son of God and His Word is valid for all time then why do we need another? Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If his word is valid for all time then why are you not Christian? Why do you believe that Jesus is not sufficient; that we are in need of another?

 

[fathercome]

If Jesus is the Son of God and His Word is valid for all time then why do we need another? Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If his word is valid for all time then why are you not Christian? Why do you believe that Jesus is not sufficient; that we are in need of another?

I would contend that I am not looking for another. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. But as He has come again I am obliged to recognize Him in His return in His new name.

And without appearing to be self-contradictory,

I would contend that Baha’u’llah in fact claims to be the Father that Jesus came to show the way toward.

Baha’u’llah says that both these views are correct.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi,

Please consider my perspective. A superstition is anything that keeps one from recognizing Truth. If we say that Jesus is Truth, and a Jew for Judaism says that Jesus is false because He did not fulfill this and that prophecy of their Book, then this objection would be a superstition. I am sure you have seen the advertisements of the Jews for Judaism online, they have counter-points and demonstrate that Jesus is not the Messiah they are waiting for. This objection is based on human learning, not divine gnosis.

And we continue with re-defining words. This is like learning a new language.

Ignorance keeps us from recognizing truth. Is ignorance superstition? Misinterpretation can keep us from recognizing truth. Is misinterpretation superstition? A lack of mental capacity can keep us from recognizing truth. Is one who is mentally impaired necessarily superstitious? It seems that words just mean whatever we want them to mean. It also seems that we must create a new dictionary in order to communicate.

 

[SteveVH]

I would contend that I am not looking for another. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. But as He has come again I am obliged to recognize Him in His return in His new name.

And without appearing to be self-contradictory,

I would contend that Baha’u’llah in fact claims to be the Father that Jesus came to show the way toward.

Baha’u’llah says that both these views are correct.

You mean the view that he is the second coming of Christ and the view that he is not the second coming of Christ, but rather the Father? Do I understand this correctly? And both views are correct?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Bahais believe that Jesus had two natures, the divine and the human.

And in this vein the fundamental question is avoided. Despite your belief in an incarnation what is not clear is whether the person Jesus was eternal. Was he an eternal spirit existing along side and seperate from God? Or was he a spirit, first created as spirit and then sent as a messenger for something bahai can’t exactly figure out? Bahais have said to me he is a merely created creatures, others have made him out to be no different than God but he is not God.

 

[fathercome]

You mean the view that he is the second coming of Christ and the view that he is not the second coming of Christ, but rather the Father? Do I understand this correctly? And both views are correct?

Yes, that’s it. So basically Baha’u’llah says in Lawh-i-Aqdas that the Father couldn’t have appeared with Jesus of Nazareth because the people could not bear it, so instead Jesus came to make the way to the Father. But now that promise is fulfilled and the Father has come who had not come in the time of Jesus:

“The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck *, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God.”

In the Tablet to the Pope (Papa), Baha’u’llah says the same thing, that Jesus had to conceal the Word (of John 16:12) but now that Word is manifest, in a slightly different way, that the Word Jesus concealed took the form of the human body of Baha’u’llah to proclaim that the Father, who had not come in the time of Jesus, has come unto the nations:

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!”

It is also stated that Moses spoke to God on Sinai but could not see Him. Baha’u’llah says that He is the Speaker on Sinai and He, who was not able to be seen, is now able to be seen by all mankind:

“This is the Day when the Speaker on Sinai hath mounted the throne of Revelation and the people have stood before the Lord of the worlds.”*

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I would contend that I am not looking for another. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. But as He has come again I am obliged to recognize Him in His return in His new name.

And without appearing to be self-contradictory,

I would contend that Baha’u’llah in fact claims to be the Father that Jesus came to show the way toward.

Baha’u’llah says that both these views are correct.

I would ask how has Jesus come again? Is through Mirza hussain? in what sense do you mean this? That he was the historical Jesus that ascended into heaven and that the angels said he would come again in like manner? Do bahai say there is but one manifestation but that he merely takes on different guises? Different bodies throughout history? I don’t think they do, so how in any sense is Mirza hussain Jesus? Did mirza Hussain do all the things Jesus did? Including provide a once and for all sacrifice for the remission of sins?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes, that’s it. So basically Baha’u’llah says in Lawh-i-Aqdas that the Father couldn’t have appeared with Jesus of Nazareth because the people could not bear it, so instead Jesus came to make the way to the Father. But now that promise is fulfilled and the Father has come who had not come in the time of Jesus:

“The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck *, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God.”

In the Tablet to the Pope (Papa), Baha’u’llah says the same thing, that Jesus had to conceal the Word but now that Word is manifest, in a slightly different way, that the Word Jesus concealed took the form of the human body of Baha’u’llah to proclaim that the Father, who had not come in the time of Jesus, has come unto the nations:

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!”

It is also stated that Moses spoke to God on Sinai but could not see Him. Baha’u’llah says that He is the Speaker on Sinai and He, who was not able to be seen, is now able to be seen by all mankind:

“This is the Day when the Speaker on Sinai hath mounted the throne of Revelation and the people have stood before the Lord of the worlds.”*

Why should we believe a word of his and why is he needed? What do I lack if I have Jesus but don’t have Mirza Hussain? And how does Mirza Hussain fill any gap exactly? In fact, how do any of the supposed manifestations fill any gap which is not filled in Jesus Christ?

 

[aragonjohn1]

aragon,
. Your point is very well taken that the most important thing about the teachings of God is to maintain love and unity.

. “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst … By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Jesus

. While we are given a mind and intellectual capacity to comprehend the knowledge of God as brought to us by His Prophets and Messengers, which is very important to our spiritual development and growth, if we forget the message of loving all humanity without prejudice, whether racial, national, class, or religious prejudices, then of what use is all that knowledge?

Yes, some of this is part of the truth that the Catholic Church teaches.

I think that God in His goodness and love has allowed nearly all religions to claim that one of

their aspects is love.

The church teaches that she has the fullness of all truth and am glad that ya continue on your journey to find the one love and one truth even though You like many may inherit part of

the Truth.

I hope that y’all find the One God Who Is Love.

God bless

 

[fathercome]

Why should we believe a word of his and why is he needed? What do I lack if I have Jesus but don’t have Mirza Hussain? And how does Mirza Hussain fill any gap exactly? In fact, how do any of the supposed manifestations fill any gap which is not filled in Jesus Christ?

Hi!

Lets set aside Mirza Husayn or Baha’u’llah for a second.

What kind of a gap does the Father of the New Testament fill exactly that the Son does not? What does the Father fill that Jesus does not?

The Baha’i claim locates the expectations of heaven right here on earth. It seems that you believe that the Father is only encountered in heaven and not on earth. Baha’u’llah claims that the references to this “heaven” are in reality references to His Day on earth.