Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[fathercome]

I would ask how has Jesus come again? Is through Mirza hussain? in what sense do you mean this? That he was the historical Jesus that ascended into heaven and that the angels said he would come again in like manner? Do bahai say there is but one manifestation but that he merely takes on different guises? Different bodies throughout history? I don’t think they do, so how in any sense is Mirza hussain Jesus? Did mirza Hussain do all the things Jesus did? Including provide a once and for all sacrifice for the remission of sins?

Different and contradictory explanations are said to be simultaneous correct in this regard (precisely because the human mind is finite).

I don’t particularly have a theological problem with Jesus providing the sacrifice for the remissions of sins. I see the Baha’i revelation as post-Christian rather than in competition with Christian. By post-Christian I mean that I see the narratives of “heaven” having being fulfilled here on earth through the revelation of Baha’u’llah. Does this mean that I disbelieve in the existence of life after physical death? No, because even Baha’u’llah speaks of life after physical death.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Different and contradictory explanations are said to be simultaneous correct in this regard (precisely because the human mind is finite).

I don’t particularly have a theological problem with Jesus providing the sacrifice for the remissions of sins. I see the Baha’i revelation as post-Christian rather than in competition with Christian. By post-Christian I mean that I see the narratives of “heaven” having being fulfilled here on earth through the revelation of Baha’u’llah. Does this mean that I disbelieve in the existence of life after physical death? No, because even Baha’u’llah speaks of life after physical death.

But simply dismissing the contradiction becuase the human mind is finite doesn’t mean we can therefore disregard any apparent contradiction. There is an explicit contradiction between Bahai and Christianity, we worship Jesus, you say this is wrong (although you won’t say it openly). We say Jesus is God, you say this is wrong (although you will attempt to make it as if we agree when we really don’t).

What did Mirza complete which Jesus left unfinished? I can only suppose you will quote Christ saying he will send the comforter and say this was Mirza Hussain, except its not, its the holy spirit. The apostles received the fullness of the faith and it is through their writings and their desciples writings and teachings that we have the fullness of truth by which we didn’t seemingly need Mirza Hussain.

By this logic there is no fullness of anything and your faith is incomplete and always will be because God has an infinite line of manifestations just waiting to take a crack at humanity.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Hi!

Lets set aside Mirza Husayn or Baha’u’llah for a second.

What kind of a gap does the Father of the New Testament fill exactly that the Son does not? What does the Father fill that Jesus does not?

The Baha’i claim locates the expectations of heaven right here on earth. It seems that you believe that the Father is only encountered in heaven and not on earth. Baha’u’llah claims that the references to this “heaven” are in reality references to His Day on earth.

Are you suggesting Mirza Hussain is somehow different from “Baha’u’llah”?

As for the gap, the better question is what does the father have which the son does not have? Christ says he is working as his father is working, Christ is the creator, he has all the attributes of God. Yes the father is unique in his person, but the son is God also.

That being said I would correct your understanding of Christianity. That the father is known through the son on earth through his ressurection and life. That the father would not abandon this world to a never ending cycle of death and destruction (as he does in the bahai religion with no seeming Goal in mind), but loved us so much that his son would die on our behalf and show that hte father (who raised Jesus from the dead physically) would not abandon creation. If anyone denies the father in this world, it is the bahai who want mankind to get along in of themselves, something which will not happen.

 

[fathercome]

loved us so much that his son would die on our behalf and show that hte father (who raised Jesus from the dead physically) would not abandon creation.

Thanks for the information. I have a few questions:

Did Jesus raise himself to life or did the father raise Jesus?
Is the father a separate person from the son?
Is God a separate entity from the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?
Are the Father and Son one or different? Is this a mystery of Christianity and both are simultanously correct?
Is God seen or not seen?
What is the difference between heaven and earth?
Where is the body of Jesus now?

If Jesus is in heaven, is the Father in heaven too? Is Jesus on earth right now as well? What about the Father?

Many thanks.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Thanks for the information. I have a few questions:

Did Jesus raise himself to life or did the father raise Jesus?
Is the father a separate person from the son?
Is God a separate entity from the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?
Are the Father and Son one or different? Is this a mystery of Christianity and both are simultanously correct?
Is God seen or not seen?
What is the difference between heaven and earth?
Where is the body of Jesus now?

If Jesus is in heaven, is the Father in heaven too? Is Jesus on earth right now as well? What about the Father?

Many thanks.

I happen to believe the father raised Christ from the dead, but it should be said that Christ did not lack the power to do this himself. Christ says he gives up his life on his own accord and can raise it up, and I believe him.

Insofar as the doctrine of the trinity is concerned. Do you submit there is one essence which can properly called God? That there is one person who is this essence which is simple, undivided, incomprehenisble and infallible? Do you accept the categories of person, meaning a being with a mind, able to think, act and posessing a unique identity? The category of essence and or substance, meaning that which composes any existent entity (please note that I am talking about existent entities not neccessarily physical entities).

But I do not want to make this a discussion about Christianity, hence I only answer you once on two of your questions here. Feel free to open a thread or pm me and I will respond more fully.

 

[fathercome]

As for the gap, the better question is what does the father have which the son does not have? Christ says he is working as his father is working, Christ is the creator, he has all the attributes of God. Yes the father is unique in his person, but the son is God also.

What does it mean that he is working as his father is working?
What does it mean that the father is unique in his person. What is the person of the father?
How do you mean that the Son is God too? Is God separate from Father? Is God the combination of Father Son and Holy Spirit?

So what happens when I go to heaven and meet God. Do I see the Son, Father, and Holy Ghost as three separate beings?

Like Steve said, communication is difficult if language is flexible.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

What does it mean that he is working as his father is working?
What does it mean that the father is unique in his person. What is the person of the father?
How do you mean that the Son is God too? Is God separate from Father? Is God the combination of Father Son and Holy Spirit?

So what happens when I go to heaven and meet God. Do I see the Son, Father, and Holy Ghost as three separate beings?

Like Steve said, communication is difficult if language is flexible.

If you want to understand the trinity, your best resource is to read history and teh understanding of the trinity over history. Specifically terms, person and substance. Good places to start are Jaroslav Pelikan’s series exploring the development of doctrine and i personally benefited from an introduction to saint basil’s against Eunomious by Catholic University of america.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes it would. Do you realize in Iran the Mullahs and religious institutions of their brand of Islam are in charge of the children’s education there? Do you not realize that the Iranian children are subject to the influence of these teachers every day? Baha’i children are harassed, bullied, punished, singled-out, by their teachers and principals in their schools? Do Baha’i parents in Iran prevent their children from attending school where they hear that Baha’u’llah was the Supreme Manifestation of Satan, nay Satan Himself, the Enemy of Islam and Chief-Spy of the West and of Israel, the taking of whose blood is a virtue and religious right? Associating with a Baha’i and befriending a Baha’i is considered a Sin in Islam.

In fact, Baha’i children are today, in Iran, subject to teachers far greater and stronger than Phelps. Iranian Phelps are supported by the police, the military, and the Supreme Leader Khamenei. And yet Baha’i are obedient to their government peaceful citizen of their nation, strive for the better of their economy and society.

Why am I having to pose this question to you so many times, fathercome?

You did say that it would be a sign of unity to invite the Rev. Fred PHelps into your home. But you did not say if you would actually do this, and if you would allow him to preach to your children in the name of unity.

Could you please answer this?

 

[PRmerger]

I had to google him. If wikipedia is being fair, he needs a heavy dose of Bahai anti-prejudice propaganda, more than most of God’s chil’n.

The Bahai paradigm (exemplar of the Bahai life) is Abdu’l-Baha, whose rule seems to have been, “never take it personally.”

By responding with love and a generous spirit to those who are mean-spirited and hateful, their hearts are sometimes changed – and they are in any case made to look ridiculous

Ah. So you value truth at the expense of unity.

That is very Catholic!

 

[PRmerger]

I would add that your question asked if one would invite Phelps to preach to their children and I said “NO”. However, I would have no problem of having a conversation with him, if only to suggest there might be a more fruitful path to travel.

Yes. This is very Catholic.

But this is because Catholicism proclaims that there is indeed One Truth, and those who have divorced themselves from this truth must be given the Truth.

Unity is only unity when it is consonant with truth.

 

[fathercome]

Why am I having to pose this question to you so many times, fathercome?

You did say that it would be a sign of unity to invite the Rev. Fred PHelps into your home. But you did not say if you would actually do this, and if you would allow him to preach to your children in the name of unity.

Could you please answer this?

Hi! sorry didnt mean to avoid it.

I don’t believe in “unity” all by itself. I believe specifically in the unity proclaimed by Baha’u’llah. In order words, unity is not achievable without Baha’u’llah. So, if I invite him to preach to my kids, I would prepare my kids in advance so that they may teach him in the process of being his student. If my kids are weak, then I would not expose them to him. If my children are strong, then perhaps they can change Rev. Phelps.

If exposing the kids to him is somehow beneficial to the teaching or advancement of the Baha’i Faith, as it is in Iran, then yes, I would. But if exposing them to him has no benefit to teaching, then no, what’s the point of putting my kids through that.

 

[SteveVH]

Did Jesus raise himself to life or did the father raise Jesus?

Jesus said that he had the power to take up his life again.

“No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” (John 10:18)

There is only one God and where the Son is, there also is the Father

Is the father a separate person from the son?

The Father is distinct from the Son, but not separate. God cannot be separate from Himself. Three distinct Persons in one divine Being or Substance.

Is God a separate entity from the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?

No. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Are the Father and Son one or different? Is this a mystery of Christianity and both are simultanously correct?

The Father and the Son are distinct only in their relationship. The Holy Spirit is the divine love between the Father and the Son; so real that it constitutes another divine Person. The three divine Persons share the one divine Substance; they are one in Being. A mystery? Absolutely. But there is no contradiction. We have nothing within our experience to compare to the nature of God. The three forms of water (liquid, solid and gas) in one substance of H2O is sometimes used. However, while demonstrating that “three in one” is not automatically contradictory, it fails as an account of how the persons in the Trinity are actually distinct. Same with the Shamrock and its three leaves.

Is God seen or not seen?

Jesus is the image of the of the “invisible God”.

What is the difference between heaven and earth?

Heaven* is a state of being in which we share in the very life of the Holy Trinity as adopted sons and daughters. Earth is a physical planet on which we dwell as mortal human beings. When Christ comes again we are told that there will be a “new heaven and a new earth”. There will be no more suffering or illness or death. Every tear will be wiped away.

*Heaven is used sometimes to mean the sky or the universe. I am not speaking of heaven in that sense.

Where is the body of Jesus now?

Sitting at the right hand of the Father, in glory.

If Jesus is in heaven, is the Father in heaven too?

Yes.

Is Jesus on earth right now as well?

He is present both spiritually and sacramentally.

What about the Father?

Where the Son is, there also is the Father.

 

[fathercome]

Yes. This is very Catholic.

But this is because Catholicism proclaims that there is indeed One Truth, and those who have divorced themselves from this truth must be given the Truth.

Unity is only unity when it is consonant with truth.

I must have Catholic tendencies This rings true for me. Let me clarify.

Baha’u’llah taught relativism and moderation and flexibility on many topics, even our perceptions of Him. He instructed us to speak with wisdom and caution and moderation and kindness. To allow differences of opinion and thought.

But His proclamations are unqualified and absolute, and made squarely within the context of Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and others.

And it makes sense, only the Absolute can claim that Truth is relative.

 

[fathercome]

The Father is distinct from the Son, but not separate. God cannot be separate from Himself. Three distinct Persons in one divine Being or Substance.
The Father and the Son are distinct only in their relationship. The Holy Spirit is the divine love between the Father and the Son; so real that it constitutes another divine Person. The three divine Persons share the one divine Substance; they are one in Being. A mystery? Absolutely. But there is no contradiction. We have nothing within our experience to compare to the nature of God. The three forms of water (liquid, solid and gas) in one substance of H2O is sometimes used. However, while demonstrating that “three in one” is not automatically contradictory, it fails as an account of how the persons in the Trinity are actually distinct. Same with the Shamrock and its three leaves.

Heaven* is a state of being in which we share in the very life of the Holy Trinity as adopted sons and daughters. Earth is a physical planet on which we dwell as mortal human beings. When Christ comes again we are told that there will be a “new heaven and a new earth”. There will be no more suffering or illness or death. Every tear will be wiped away.

Sitting at the right hand of the Father, in glory.

He is present both spiritually and sacramentally.

Where the Son is, there also is the Father.

Hi, thanks for the explanation.

Based on this explanation, I would say that the “Father” that Baha’u’llah claims to be doesn’t quite fit into this theology using the word “Father”.

To explain His claim in Trinitarian theology as you explained above, I would need to change my own terminology as well. Not being fluent in the Trinity, please consider this a first attempt:

I would say that in a Trinitarian sense, the claim of Baha’u’llah is that for the first time in history, He is the embodiment of the Trinity in one Person. In other words, in the time of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Son and Father are three separate Persons. Baha’u’llah claims that in this Day, these three are no longer three separate persons but one Person, that the Person of God Himself (He who is beyond the Three persons of Trinity) has appeared. He claims that in this Day, He has appeared who created the Holy Spirit itself. That He has appeared who Jesus had longed to see. I don’t think (correct me if I am wrong) that in Trinitarian view, the Son longed to see the Father, perhaps in Trinitarian view Jesus had longed to see the Unseen God. (In Trinitarian view, when you say “Unseen God”, do you mean Father or do you mean the God-substance-of-Son-Father-Holy-Spirit? If you answer that the Unseen God is the Father not the God-Substance, then I would need to delete this whole paragraph and start over I think.)

 

[PRmerger]

Hi! sorry didnt mean to avoid it.

I don’t believe in “unity” all by itself. I believe specifically in the unity proclaimed by Baha’u’llah. In order words, unity is not achievable without Baha’u’llah. So, if I invite him to preach to my kids, I would prepare my kids in advance so that they may teach him in the process of being his student. If my kids are weak, then I would not expose them to him. If my children are strong, then perhaps they can change Rev. Phelps.

Ah. So it appears that unity is not supreme in your view.

Rather, you understand that unity cannot be wrought at the expense of truth.

When someone is professing lies, one cannot unite with him. Yes?

 

[fathercome]

Ah. So it appears that unity is not supreme in your view.

Rather, you understand that unity cannot be wrought at the expense of truth.

When someone is professing lies, one cannot unite with him. Yes?

Do you mean how can Baha’is profess to be united with all religions if clearly the religions make separate and different claims and hold varied and opposed beliefs?

If so, again I would say that as a Baha’i, I am asked to embrace unity. I am not embracing unity all by myself. I hold Baha’u’llah to be greater than unity because Baha’u’llah created this unity to which I am holding, not the other way around. Unity does not create Baha’u’llah, Baha’u’llah creates unity.

IF you mean something else, please clarify. I finally feel we’re moving forward in understanding a bit.

 

[fathercome]

I see in Baha’u’llah He Who sent down all the different religions and beliefs. He created different nations and peoples so as to beautify His Garden with different colors and perfumes and shapes. Now, the DIVINE Garden has appeared bring together all his varied flowers and put them together in one unified Garden.

All praise be upon the Divine Garden, The Omniscient. We were promised we would see Him in Heaven but He came to Earth ! The promises of the future were Fulfilled in the now !

“Verily, verily, I am God, no God is there but Me, the Lord of all created things. In truth all others except Me are My creatures. O, My creatures! Me alone do ye worship.” - Baha’u’llah

 

[arthra]

Because truthfulness has come up as a topic I wanted to share how Baha’is regard it as a virtue…

“The most vital duty, in this day,” He, moreover, has written, “**is to purify your characters, to correct your manners, and improve your conduct. **The beloved of the Merciful must show forth such character and conduct among His creatures, that the fragrance of their holiness may be shed upon the whole world, and may quicken the dead, inasmuch as the purpose of the Manifestation of God and the dawning of the limitless lights of the Invisible is to educate the souls of men, and refine the character of every living man…” “Truthfulness," He asserts, "is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.”

and

"Let truthfulness and courtesy be your adorning," is still another admonition; "suffer not yourselves to be deprived of the robe of forbearance and justice, that the sweet savors of holiness may be wafted from your hearts upon all created things. Say: Beware, O people of Baha, lest ye walk in the ways of them whose words differ from their deeds.

~ Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 24-25

At the same time:

**This Wronged One hath forbidden the people of God to engage in contention or conflict and hath exhorted them to righteous deeds and praiseworthy character.
**
~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 87

 

[arthra]

I see in Baha’u’llah He Who sent down all the different religions and beliefs. He created different nations and peoples so as to beautify His Garden with different colors and perfumes and shapes. Now, the DIVINE Garden has appeared bring together all his varied flowers and put them together in one unified Garden.

All praise be upon the Divine Garden, The Omniscient. We were promised we would see Him in Heaven but He came to Earth ! The promises of the future were Fulfilled in the now !

“Verily, verily, I am God, no God is there but Me, the Lord of all created things. In truth all others except Me are My creatures. O, My creatures! Me alone do ye worship.” - Baha’u’llah

It would probably be good to see the context of the last statement and the source:

By the righteousness of God! But for the anthem of praise voiced by Him Who heralded the divine Revelation, this Wronged One would never have breathed a word which might have struck terror into the hearts of the ignorant and caused them to perish. Dwelling on the glorification of Him Whom God shall make manifest—exalted be His Manifestation—the Báb in the beginning of the Bayán saith: ‘He is the One Who shall proclaim under all conditions,

“Verily, verily, I am God, no God is there but Me, the Lord of all created things. In truth all others except Me are My creatures. O, My creatures! Me alone do ye worship.”’

Likewise in another instance He, magnifying the Name of Him Who shall be made manifest, saith: ‘I would be the first to adore Him.’ Now it behoveth one to reflect upon the significance of the ‘Adorer’ and the ‘Adored One’, that perchance the people of the earth may partake of a dewdrop from the ocean of divine knowledge and may be enabled to perceive the greatness of this Revelation. Verily, He hath appeared and hath unloosed His tongue to proclaim the Truth. Well is it with him who doth acknowledge and recognize the truth, and woe betide the froward and the wayward.

TAJALLÍYÁT (Effulgences)

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas

pp. 45 46 47

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-6.html

 

[fathercome]

In the Tajalliyat as well as in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Baha’u’llah quotes the Bab, saying that it was the Bab who anticipated that Baha’u’llah would make such exalted claim that would strike “terror into the hearts of the ignorant and caused them to perish”.

In the Kitab-i-Aqdas He repeats a similar thing, that the Bab anticipated that Baha’u’llah is the One who shall under all conditions make this proclamation, and then adds:

“This is a station which God hath assigned exclusively to this sublime, this unique and wondrous Revelation. This is a token of His bounteous favour, if ye be of them who comprehend, and a sign of His irresistible decree. This is His Most Great Name, His Most Exalted Word, and the Dayspring of His Most Excellent Titles, if ye could understand. Nay more, through Him every Fountainhead, every Dawning-place of Divine guidance is made manifest. Reflect, O people, on that which hath been sent down in truth; ponder thereon, and be not of the transgressors.”