Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Nick44]

Thank you. So is there any need for salvation or does one attain their eternal reward by progressing through human knowledge and effort?

Salvation/reward is always contingent on the recognition of the Manifestations of God and following their commandments. Those who deny God will not be in a good situation as purely human knowledge won’t cut it. Jesus gave a hint when he described some living people as being ‘dead’:

“Let the dead bury their dead”.
Matthew 8:22

 

[SteveVH]

Salvation/reward is always contingent on the recognition of the Manifestations of God and following their commandments. Those who deny God will not be in a good situation as purely human knowledge won’t cut it. Jesus gave a hint when he described some living people as being ‘dead’:

“Let the dead bury their dead”.
Matthew 8:22

Thanks, but we must distinguish between “salvation” and “reward”. Theoretically we could say that a perfectly righteous person would receive his reward without the need for salvation. This person, however, doesn’t exist. We believe that we are all sinners and in need of God’s grace and forgiveness. We are dependent upon the saving act of Christ in order to enter our reward.

My point, Nick, is that Christ as Savior does not seem to enter into the Baha’i paradigm. As to the recognition of the Manifestations of God and following their commandments as the basis for salvation, the Baha’i have a real problem. Muhammad rejects Christ as Savior. Christianity claims Christ as Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we then to obey?

 

[daler]

But then you turn around and quote back the word of Jesus before Abraham I AM! How can you say that? The Father and I are One? How do you define that?

.

Rinnie,
. Again, thank you for your courtesy and articulating your understanding. Here is mine, as best I can state it.

. When I think of “Jesus”, I am thinking of that physical human being who was born and lived 2000 years ago. When I think of that Godly Essence Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, I am thinking of an Eternal Being Who appears from age to age. 2000 years ago, He appeared in Jesus, but I would, in a sense, identify “Jesus” as I would identify a beautiful suit of clothes which this Eternal Being Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” “wore”, in a sense. Do you see the difference?

. The way Baha’is view this Eternal Manifestation of God in regarding the words of Jesus: “No one cometh to the Father (God) but by Me (the Manifestation)” That is, we cannot approach God or come to know Him except by approaching His Manifestation and hearing His Word.

. The term 'Manifestation" is used in two ways. One is the Single, Eternal Manifestation of God Who appears from age to age in the garb of human attire. The other is with respect to each of these human identities, commonly called Prophets, i.e. Moses, Jesus, Baha’u’llah. For They each have their own individuality, personality, DNA, etc. Therefore, Moses was not Jesus was not Baha’u’llah.

. But yet They are all expressions of what we term as this Universal Manifestation of God, and in that spiritual sense, are One and the same Being. Hence, when Jesus speaks of His Return, we do not expect the same physical person of Jesus, the son of Mary, Who lived 2000 years ago. This correlates with Elijah’s expected Return which was fulfilled with the coming of John the Baptist, who was not the same physical person who lived a thousand years before.

. Even as the attributes and purpose of Elijah were once again made manifest in John, so to the attributes and purpose of Jesus coming have become manifest in Baha’u’llah. They are not the same physical person, DNA, etc.

. The analogy is given of this years rose in the garden which brings all the beauty and fragrance of the rose of last year, or years before. We can say: “The Rose has returned!” and happily behold the beauty and enjoy the fragrance, although outwardly it is not the same identical rose of last year. Indeed, its function is the same, to bring us those qualities once again into our world for our benefit.

. Although the “Rose” of 2000 years ago was crucified, yet He lives. Now a new Rose has appeared, restoring to the world a fresh outpouring, from the same heavenly garden, the beauty and fragrance of God’s love, in fulfillment of that which was promised in all the Holy Books.

 

[Nick44]

Thanks, but we must distinguish between “salvation” and “reward”. Theoretically we could say that a perfectly righteous person would receive his reward without the need for salvation. This person, however, doesn’t exist. We believe that we are all sinners and in need of God’s grace and forgiveness. We are dependent upon the saving act of Christ in order to enter our reward.

My point, Nick, is that Christ as Savior does not seem to enter into the Baha’i paradigm. As to the recognition of the Manifestations of God and following their commandments as the basis for salvation, the Baha’i have a real problem. Muhammad rejects Christ as Savior. Christianity claims Christ as Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we then to obey?

Your love of Jesus is most praiseworthy!

I, too, love Jesus. As a Baha’i, I recognize that the same sun of God’s reality that shone through Jesus, has reappeared in Baha’u’llah. We can agree that God loves us (even more than we love ourselves), that He provides us with guidance as to how to best live our lives, and that there has never been a place or people or time that has been devoid of God’s mercy and caring.

 

[daler]

Thanks, but we must distinguish between “salvation” and “reward”. Theoretically we could say that a perfectly righteous person would receive his reward without the need for salvation. This person, however, doesn’t exist. We believe that we are all sinners and in need of God’s grace and forgiveness. We are dependent upon the saving act of Christ in order to enter our reward.

My point, Nick, is that Christ as Savior does not seem to enter into the Baha’i paradigm. As to the recognition of the Manifestations of God and following their commandments as the basis for salvation, the Baha’i have a real problem. Muhammad rejects Christ as Savior. Christianity claims Christ as Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we then to obey?

Steve,
. If I may address this. The purpose of the Manifestation is to save us from our lower animal nature and love and attachment to the world, and to give us wings to soar in the eternal realm of the spirit. Each of the Messengers of God does that, yet it remains our choice as to how we respond, either accepting the Hand that rescues us from the sea of material attachment and the lusts of our carnal desires, or refusing to hear the sweet Melody of God’s gentle voice.

. I don’t think, from my reading of the Quran, that Muhammad ever rejects Jesus at all, but He does say that there is only One God Who sends us successive Messengers, which is in keeping with Jesus’ own words: “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”

 

[eddie_too]

did bahaullah teach that Jesus was mistaken when He said He would raise Himself from the dead?

 

[Nick44]

did bahaullah teach that Jesus was mistaken when He said He would raise Himself from the dead?

Eddie, there isn’t anything, (zero, zip, zilch, nada) anywhere in Baha’u’llah’s Writings concerning Jesus, that is anything but the highest love, praise and glorification of Him.

 

[PRmerger]

Well I’m disappointed there PR. I put that website in to please you since you obviously love the wacky fringe jobs, like Jose Luis and his comrades. Sorry to disappoint

No, Servant. I reject “wacky fringe jobs”, and have been quite consistent in this.

You, however, are being quite inconsistent. You seem to reject the wacky claim of folks who believe that Mr. de Jesus is divine…

yet you provide as a source another wacky web site.

Please be consistent.

Do you have a reputable website that says that Jewish tradition is the Word of God?

Otherwise, I have to assume that you were mistaken in comparing Jewish tradition to Catholic Sacred Tradition.

At any rate, Jewish rabbinic tradition rejecting Christ would not be an indictment of Catholic Sacred Tradition.

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai deny the physical resurrection of Jesus.

is that what a bahai considers loving someone, telling the world He either lied or simply was ignorant?

afterall, telling the world that Jesus did not raise Himself from the dead is a direct contradiction of Jesus’ words that He would raise Himself from the dead.

if the bahai thinks telling people they are lying when they are not lying is loving them, then i can do without that kind of love.

 

[tonyfish58]

did bahaullah teach that Jesus was mistaken when He said He would raise Himself from the dead?

Eddie the The answer of course is no, but the answer may not be what you are looking for. Please read this passage in full and contemplate on its import.

**O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. O people of the Bayán! If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Muḥammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires.
**
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh XLVII Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-47.html

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Your love of Jesus is most praiseworthy!

I, too, love Jesus. As a Baha’i, I recognize that the same sun of God’s reality that shone through Jesus, has reappeared in Baha’u’llah. We can agree that God loves us (even more than we love ourselves), that He provides us with guidance as to how to best live our lives, and that there has never been a place or people or time that has been devoid of God’s mercy and caring.

Well thank you, but this does not answer my question. Are we to follow Muhammad’s claim of who Christ is or Christianity’s claim? Muhammad denies that Christ was even crucified, much less risen from the dead. He therefore rejects Christ as our Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we to follow when their claims contradict each other?

 

[PRmerger]

Well PR, you consider Sacred Tradition to be the Word of God. That’s the interpretation of the Church, that’s all well and good, but you can’t deny the GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY, that Semikhah provides to its Rabbinic recipients.

Ah, ok, then.

You are talking about authority, now. Not tradition.

If that’s the context of our discussion, then I propose this: the Jewish authority was not infallible.

So when they rejected Christ, they were making a fatal error.

Semikhah is a method of inheriting Gods authority that is equally as valid as Catholicism’s Traditions, from a Jewish perspective.

Ok. Perhaps if you were in discussion on a Jewish forum this would segue into some interesting dialogue.

However, as you are on a *Catholic *forum, (why do you folks seem to be forgetting this??? ) the “Jewish” perspective is irrelevant.

So their rejection of Jesus as Messiah, through this God-given Tradition is no different to your rejection of Baha’u’llah as the Return of Jesus in the glory of the Father

And your rejection of Mr. de Jesus as the return of Jesus is no different than our rejection of Bahaullah.

 

[PRmerger]

Eddie, there isn’t anything, (zero, zip, zilch, nada) anywhere in Baha’u’llah’s Writings concerning Jesus, that is anything but the highest love, praise and glorification of Him.

Did Bahauhllah worship Christ?

 

[eddie_too]

very pretty words, but actions speak louder than words and teaching people that Jesus did not raise Himself physically from the dead is a pretty damning act.

in denying the physical resurrection of Jesus, bahaullah is directly contradicting Jesus.

pretty it up all you like, use all the flowery words you like just as bahaullah did, but contradicting someone who is telling the truth is not an act of love. it is a despicable act.

in addition, it is deceitful to claim that one is like another while simultaneously declaing that other to be a liar.

the more i hear of bahaullah the more i am convinced he suffered from mental illness of the megalomania category.

 

[tonyfish58]

Well thank you, but this does not answer my question. Are we to follow Muhammad’s claim of who Christ is or Christianity’s claim? Muhammad denies that Christ was even crucified, much less risen from the dead. He therefore rejects Christ as our Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we to follow when their claims contradict each other?

SteveVH - They are good questions, the post above to Eddie has a quote that is relevant to the Question.

It is to God we must turn for the answers. To do this it is up to us to find the mouthpiece of God.

Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

It is to God we must turn for the answers. To do this it is up to us to find the mouthpiece of God.

Regards Tony

We must also be wise as serpents in discerning false claims of those who profess to be the mouthpiece of God, no?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. If I may address this. The purpose of the Manifestation is to save us from our lower animal nature and love and attachment to the world, and to give us wings to soar in the eternal realm of the spirit. Each of the Messengers of God does that, yet it remains our choice as to how we respond, either accepting the Hand that rescues us from the sea of material attachment and the lusts of our carnal desires, or refusing to hear the sweet Melody of God’s gentle voice.

. I don’t think, from my reading of the Quran, that Muhammad ever rejects Jesus at all, but He does say that there is only One God Who sends us successive Messengers, which is in keeping with Jesus’ own words: “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”

He does not reject the Jesus of his creation, but he certainly rejects the historical Jesus by rejecting the entire purpose of his coming; to save us from our sins. He rejects the passion, crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. Thus, my question remains. If our salvation is dependent upon recognizing the “Manifestations of God” and following their commandments, who do we follow when they contradict one another?

No doubt you will claim that there is no contradiction, yet this is very easily proven to be false by reading Jesus’ own words concerning himself.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

In response to Arthra, the points I have contention with.

1. God is the creator
   There is no doubt as to this point but I will point out that the bahai do accept the gospels as divinely inspired, they are correct and must be believed for the bahai. What do the gospels say? They tell us umambigiously that Jesus Christ, the word of God created all that existed.

John 1:3 All things were made by him(the word); and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The beginning of the gospel of John deals specifically with the word and the incarnation thereof, the subject in this sentence is specifically the word whom is undoubtedly the lord Jesus Christ. Bahai must submit that Jesus Christ is their creator and if they refuse to acknowledge and thank Christ for not only the universe’s creation as a whole, but their individual lives, I must question why bahai profess belief in the gospels.

2 And 3 We must die for God.
I would say yes we must die for God but my specific question was in regaurds to Christ and what he said. We must take up the cross and die for his sake.

“Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Mathew 10:38

This is not the only time Christ draws the direct attention to himself instead of saying what we might expect a loyal bahai or Muslim to say, that is “Whoever does not take up their cross and follow God is not worthy of God” or some such thing. We have to be found worthy of Christ, we have to love Jesus more than we have to love our families. What does this imply exactly? Do all manifestations deserve such devotion? Why did Jesus turn the attention to himself rather than to God?

1. You do not apparently honour Jesus as your creator though.
2. Saying you worship God does not answer my specific point as to whom your salvation is due. Hebrews and the entire new testament is quite clear, your salvation is due to one person alone, Jesus Christ and his once and for all sacrifice on the cross for your sins. You profess to believe in these books, why do you not acknowledge their contents during your worship? What Jesus did for you? So, do you acknowledge your lord and saviour Jesus Christ in your worship? Please answer the question.
3. You are judged by Jesus Christ, into whom all judgment was given.

“Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,” John 5: 22

“He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” Acts 10:42

Lets also take paul into consideration

“because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31

You claim to believe in the scripture yet you deny it every chance you get.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

He does not reject the Jesus of his creation, but he certainly rejects the historical Jesus by rejecting the entire purpose of his coming; to save us from our sins. He rejects the passion, crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. Thus, my question remains. If our salvation is dependent upon recognizing the “Manifestations of God” and following their commandments, who do we follow when they contradict one another?

No doubt you will claim that there is no contradiction, yet this is very easily proven to be false by reading Jesus’ own words concerning himself.

The idea is that everyone after the manifestations has simply misunderstood the previous revelation. Bahai are sketchy as to the details of when teh supposed meanings were corrupted like in the case of Christianity (which I would maintain from a perspective absolutely must necessitate it was corrupted as soon as the apostles began to preach). This of course begs the uncomfortable question for bahai; “Why should we believe you have preserved the true teaching of Mirza Hussain when every single group before you has failed?”

 

[tonyfish58]

We must also be wise as serpents in discerning false claims of those who profess to be the mouthpiece of God, no?

Yes agreed 100%, but we have to really look within our selves and ask God. To do this the most important thing is

“My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart”.

We have overcomplicated the False Prophet Warning to our loss.

I became a Baha’i when the Orange People were around, my wife became a Baha’i First and I gave here a hard time asking her who got all the money and the Rolls Royces.

After study it was plain to see the magnanimity of Christ and the Prophets over the others. That is up to all of us too look for

I wish you well in life and Faith - Regards Tony