Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

It is to God we must turn for the answers. To do this it is up to us to find the mouthpiece of God.

Regards Tony

Tony, how do you go about finding the “mouthpiece of God”?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes agreed 100%, but we have to really look within our selves and ask God. To do this the most important thing is

“My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart”.

We have overcomplicated the False Prophet Warning to our loss.

I became a Baha’i when the Orange People were around, my wife became a Baha’i First and I gave here a hard time asking her who got all the money and the Rolls Royces.

After study it was plain to see the magnanimity of Christ and the Prophets over the others. That is up to all of us too look for

Not sure what the above means, in the context of our discussion.

You first counsel is to possess a pure heart? How is that a response to the question of how we know whether someone truly is a mouthpiece of God?

Do you think someone who believes Mr. de Jesus is the mouthpiece of God believes he has an impure heart?

I wish you well in life and Faith - Regards Tony

Right back at 'cha!

 

[Nick44]

Well thank you, but this does not answer my question. Are we to follow Muhammad’s claim of who Christ is or Christianity’s claim? Muhammad denies that Christ was even crucified, much less risen from the dead. He therefore rejects Christ as our Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we to follow when their claims contradict each other?/QUOTE

Muhammad was referring to the ‘Christ’ who is eternal and can never be killed. Of course, the body of Jesus was crucified and did die. Baha’u’llah said when the terms ‘life and death’ are spoken of in the scriptures, they are primarily intended to mean the spiritual life and death, which is similar to what Jesus said, “the flesh profits nothing.” Following any Manifestation is following God but you’ll get the most up-to-date info from the latest one.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

SteveVH;11241240:

Well thank you, but this does not answer my question. Are we to follow Muhammad’s claim of who Christ is or Christianity’s claim? Muhammad denies that Christ was even crucified, much less risen from the dead. He therefore rejects Christ as our Savior. Which “Manifestation of God” are we to follow when their claims contradict each other?

Can you give any classical islamic commentator as a reference for that belief?

 

[SteveVH]

Muhammad was referring to the ‘Christ’ who is eternal and can never be killed. Of course, the body of Jesus was crucified and did die.

Not according to the Quran. It denies that he was crucified.

"…They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Quran, 4:157)

So, who are we to believe? Was Muhammad, a “Manifestation of God”, in error when he said this?

 

[Nick44]

Not according to the Quran. It denies that he was crucified.

"…They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Quran, 4:157)

So, who are we to believe? Was Muhammad, a “Manifestation of God”, in error when he said this?

Baha’u’llah said that Jesus Christ was crucified. Many fanatical Muslims will twist scripture to mock Christians. Of course, they still hate Baha’is, too (still killing us in Iran to this day). They are not who I would rely on for any Quranic interpretations.

“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah, “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” (Quran 2:154)

Maybe we’d do better to stay in the Baha’i/Christian ring.

 

[frazelle09]

Tony, how do you go about finding the “mouthpiece of God”?

This is a great question and the most important question one facing any human being during their lifetime.

i think we alluded to the answer to this question somewhat previously. i’m sorry i didn’t do a very good job of it. Perhaps a recap is in order…

A person Who is a Manifestation announces that He is. As someone mentioned before, Shakespere wrote many beautiful things, as did Bahá’u’lláh, but the former never claimed to be the Mouthpiece of God while the latter did.

The second most important source for finding the Mouthpiece of God is His Writings.

The third, His life. Was He persecuted for His Teachings? Did He continue to teach anyway? Were His followers persecuted? How did they react to these persecutions?

Did He give any predictions about future events? Did they come true or not?

The Mouthpiece of God’s Teachings are meant to be put into practice How do His followers live? What are they involved in now?

And, if enough time has passed, was a great civilization born?

Of course, while we are searching for this Anointed One, we ourselves must strive to be humble, to rid ourselves of preconcieved notions and to pray and meditate daily and to beseech our Creator for Divine Guidance in our search.

Hopefully this will help a little.

Have a beautiful evening!

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’u’llah said that Jesus Christ was crucified. Many fanatical Muslims will twist scripture to mock Christians. Of course, they still hate Baha’is, too (still killing us in Iran to this day). They are not who I would rely on for any Quranic interpretations.

“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah, “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” (Quran 2:154)

Maybe we’d do better to stay in the Baha’i/Christian ring.

Well that would be fine and certainly more convenient, except we are in the Baha’i/Christian ring because the Baha’i claim that Muhammad is a “Manifestation of God”. And Muhammad claims that Jesus was never crucified, but rather someone disguised as Jesus. This conflicts with the Baha’i belief as well as the Christian belief. Yet the Quran is held in higher esteem than the Christian Scriptures by the Baha’i. Do you not see the inconsistency in your beliefs?

What this boils down to, Nick, is the fact that either the Christian Scriptures are correct or the Quran is correct. You cannot rationally believe in both simultaneously.

 

[Servant19]

Well that would be fine and certainly more convenient, except we are in the Baha’i/Christian ring because the Baha’i claim that Muhammad is a “Manifestation of God”. And Muhammad claims that Jesus was never crucified, but rather someone disguised as Jesus. This conflicts with the Baha’i belief as well as the Christian belief. Yet the Quran is held in higher esteem than the Christian Scriptures by the Baha’i. Do you not see the inconsistency in your beliefs?

What this boils down to, Nick, is the fact that either the Christian Scriptures are correct or the Quran is correct. You cannot rationally believe in both simultaneously.

Steve, there is ABSOLUTELY no inconsistency at all once these seemingly contradicting verses from different Holy Books of the past are read through the lens of Bahaullahs Revelation.

As I have said, it is a huge burden on many souls, especially Muslims who read the Quran just like you have and then look at how this can possibly align with the teachings of Jesus whom they also rever.

You think these Muslims don’t have a pure heart? You think they do not want to reconcile these seeming contradictions? You think they are incapable of wanting to love their Christian and Jewish brothers and sisters?

Tears have flown when the Verses of Bahaullah have been read and suddenly the light of love and unity has been shed upon them.

As has been said before, life and death in the Scriptures almost always refers to the spiritual, not the physical.

In Islam, there is a teaching to imply that the physical body is NOT our true identity. It was not Jesus that was crucified, it was just a collection of atoms. Jesus was truly beyond any atomic structure. No atomic conglomerate has existed before Abraham and exists to this day and beyond.

 

[SteveVH]

This is a great question and the most important question one facing any human being during their lifetime.

i think we alluded to the answer to this question somewhat previously. i’m sorry i didn’t do a very good job of it. Perhaps a recap is in order…

A person Who is a Manifestation announces that He is. As someone mentioned before, Shakespere wrote many beautiful things, as did Bahá’u’lláh, but the former never claimed to be the Mouthpiece of God while the latter did.

The second most important source for finding the Mouthpiece of God is His Writings.

The third, His life. Was He persecuted for His Teachings? Did He continue to teach anyway? Were His followers persecuted? How did they react to these persecutions?

Did He give any predictions about future events? Did they come true or not?

The Mouthpiece of God’s Teachings are meant to be put into practice How do His followers live? What are they involved in now?

And, if enough time has passed, was a great civilization born?

Of course, while we are searching for this Anointed One, we ourselves must strive to be humble, to rid ourselves of preconcieved notions and to pray and meditate daily and to beseech our Creator for Divine Guidance in our search.

Hopefully this will help a little.

Have a beautiful evening!

Thank you.

Is this your own list of requirements in order to be a “mouthpiece of God” or does this come form an official Baha’i source?

 

[Nick44]

Well that would be fine and certainly more convenient, except we are in the Baha’i/Christian ring because the Baha’i claim that Muhammad is a “Manifestation of God”. And Muhammad claims that Jesus was never crucified, but rather someone disguised as Jesus. This conflicts with the Baha’i belief as well as the Christian belief. Yet the Quran is held in higher esteem than the Christian Scriptures by the Baha’i. Do you not see the inconsistency in your beliefs?

What this boils down to, Nick, is the fact that either the Christian Scriptures are correct or the Quran is correct. You cannot rationally believe in both simultaneously.

Here is the official Baha’i interpretation given by Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Faith:

" (he) states that the Quranic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate." (Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669)

 

[frazelle09]

Well that would be fine and certainly more convenient, except we are in the Baha’i/Christian ring because the Baha’i claim that Muhammad is a “Manifestation of God”. And Muhammad claims that Jesus was never crucified, but rather someone disguised as Jesus. This conflicts with the Baha’i belief as well as the Christian belief. Yet the Quran is held in higher esteem than the Christian Scriptures by the Baha’i. Do you not see the inconsistency in your beliefs?

What this boils down to, Nick, is the fact that either the Christian Scriptures are correct or the Quran is correct. You cannot rationally believe in both simultaneously.

As a Bahá’í i was rather perplexed by the above question. Uf! However upon reading one of several of the translations of the Holy Book - the Quran it seems clear that there are other translations which perhaps shed more light on the matter. i also encountered the following webpage, which has a thoughtful discussion of the topic…

jesus-islam.org/Pages/DoestheQurandenythedeathofJesus.aspx

It’s pretty cool.

Have a super evening!

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, there is ABSOLUTELY no inconsistency at all once these seemingly contradicting verses from different Holy Books of the past are read through the lens of Bahaullahs Revelation.

Only in the minds of the Baha’i. I have just proven that the Quran states that Jesus was never crucified after being told that this was not a Muslim belief by one of your own.

As I have said, it is a huge burden on many souls, especially Muslims who read the Quran just like you have and then look at how this can possibly align with the teachings of Jesus whom they also rever.

No doubt. I would say that this should be a problem for anyone with a rational mind. When one attempts to reconcile two opposing beliefs it creates a cognitive dissonance that naturally and rightfully makes us uncomfortable.

You think these Muslims don’t have a pure heart? You think they do not want to reconcile these seeming contradictions? You think they are incapable of wanting to love their Christian and Jewish brothers and sisters?

Have I ever said anything remotely close to this?

As has been said before, life and death in the Scriptures almost always refers to the spiritual, not the physical.

Many times, but not always by any means.

In Islam, there is a teaching to imply that the physical body is NOT our true identity. It was not Jesus that was crucified, it was just a collection of atoms. Jesus was truly beyond any atomic structure. No atomic conglomerate has existed before Abraham and exists to this day and beyond.

If it was only a collection of atoms that was crucified and not Jesus then there was no sacrifice, only a sham. Both you and the Muslims completely miss the purpose in Jesus’ becoming man and dwelling among us. He came to save us from our sins by offering his own, pure and undefiled life in our place. If it was not his life that was taken then heaven is closed and we stand condemned before God. So this explanation does nothing to help either the Muslim or the Baha’i position as far as Christianity is concerned.

The plain fact is that you accept as truth contradictory positions that are clearly laid out for all to see. The Quran does not say that Jesus was crucified in some metaphorical manner. It says that he was not crucified at all, but that someone pretending to be Jesus was crucified in his place. This contradicts your own explanation of crucified atoms. So there is no point in trying to get around this. I just don’t understand why you cannot honestly address the reality of the words that are written. If we are seeking truth then let us seek truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Baha’u’llah said that Jesus Christ was crucified. Many fanatical Muslims will twist scripture to mock Christians. Of course, they still hate Baha’is, too (still killing us in Iran to this day). They are not who I would rely on for any Quranic interpretations.

“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah, “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” (Quran 2:154)

Maybe we’d do better to stay in the Baha’i/Christian ring.

But if we are consistent with your paradigm, why should we discard what the prophet Mohammed has said regarding Christ?

 

[SteveVH]

Here is the official Baha’i interpretation given by Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Faith:

" (he) states that the Quranic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate." (Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669)

Well, I would completely disagree with Shoghi Effendi based upon the very clear statement in the Quran itself. The Quran very clearly states that an imposter was crucified rather than Jesus. How Shoghi-Effendi then interprets this to mean that no, Jesus’ body really was crucified but not his spiritual reality, is really beyond me. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This is typical of modern religions; of holding on to a preconceived notion as to what they want to be true, and then working backwards to try and make everything fit. It becomes a real problem when it simply does not fit, as is the case in this instance.

 

[Servant19]

Well, I would completely disagree with Shoghi Effendi based upon the very clear statement in the Quran itself. The Quran very clearly states that an imposter was crucified rather than Jesus. How Shoghi-Effendi then interprets this to mean that no, Jesus’ body really was crucified but not his spiritual reality, is really beyond me. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This is typical of modern religions; of holding on to a preconceived notion as to what they want to be true, and then working backwards to try and make everything fit. It becomes a real problem when it simply does not fit, as is the case in this instance.

jesus-islam.org/Pages/DoestheQurandenythedeathofJesus.aspx

 

[Nick44]

Well, I would completely disagree with Shoghi Effendi based upon the very clear statement in the Quran itself. The Quran very clearly states that an imposter was crucified rather than Jesus. How Shoghi-Effendi then interprets this to mean that no, Jesus’ body really was crucified but not his spiritual reality, is really beyond me. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This is typical of modern religions; of holding on to a preconceived notion as to what they want to be true, and then working backwards to try and make everything fit. It becomes a real problem when it simply does not fit, as is the case in this instance.

If you’d like to skip the salad and get right to the steak, here is the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude). It was written by Baha’u’llah over the space of 48 hrs, in answer to questions from an Uncle of the Bab who wanted proof that his nephew was the promised one of Islam. Baha’u’llah explains many Biblical and Quranic themes that prophesied the promised one. This book was revealed prior to Baha’u’llah publicly announcing His own revelation.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

 

[SteveVH]

If you’d like to skip the salad and get right to the steak, here is the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude). It was written by Baha’u’llah over the space of 48 hrs, in answer to questions from an Uncle of the Bab who wanted proof that his nephew was the promised one of Islam. Baha’u’llah explains many Biblical and Quranic themes that prophesied the promised one. This book was revealed prior to Baha’u’llah publicly announcing His own revelation.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

Nick, with all due respect, there are 257 pages here. Why don’t you just quote me those parts that are pertinent to our discussion. I have neither the time nor the desire to scour this book to find the portion that applies here. That would be your job since you are the one trying to make a point.

 

[arthra]

Well, I would completely disagree with Shoghi Effendi based upon the very clear statement in the Quran itself. The Quran very clearly states that an imposter was crucified rather than Jesus. How Shoghi-Effendi then interprets this to mean that no, Jesus’ body really was crucified but not his spiritual reality, is really beyond me. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This is typical of modern religions; of holding on to a preconceived notion as to what they want to be true, and then working backwards to try and make everything fit. It becomes a real problem when it simply does not fit, as is the case in this instance.

Steven:

It may not make “sense” to you…but consider this… It is part of the idiom of the Qur’an that martyrs are not dead as well… Let’s compare Surih 2:154 with Surih 4:157…

First Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

Now Surih 4:157

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Now the next verse:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The above is the well known translation of A.Yusuf Ali.

The view that while the physical body of Jesus was crucified on the cross but His Spirit was not crucified resolves in our view an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. Allah raised Him up unto Himself…not His broken physical body but His Spirit.

Also… the view that “some imposter was crucified rather than Jesus.” is a mockery to the martyrdom of Jesus …

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Steven:

It may not make “sense” to you…but consider this… It is part of the idiom of the Qur’an that martyrs are not dead as well… Let’s compare Surih 2:154 with Surih 4:157…

First Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

Now Surih 4:157

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Now the next verse:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The above is the well known translation of A.Yusuf Ali.

The view that while the physical body of Jesus was crucified on the cross but His Spirit was not crucified resolves in our view an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. Allah raised Him up unto Himself…not His broken physical body but His Spirit.

Also… the view that “some imposter was crucified rather than Jesus.” is a mockery to the martyrdom of Jesus …

No, his body was not broken. Thats the point of the quran, that the shameful death by crucifixion has not been suffered by Jesus, he was saved by Allah. His body was replaced. But this is a universal islamic belief. Have the muslims since their most early commentators got it wrong?