Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

To a Jew, the authority provided by semikhah is sufficient authority. Catholics may claim that they have upped the ante by saying that you are privy to the Word of God through Sacred Tradition.

My understanding of the Bahai Faith is that there is no other Word of God other than those that were uttered by the Manifestation of God, period.

But at the end of the day a Jew sees authority ONLY through semikhah, why should he accept Jesus as the Messiah? What proof do you have? Classical semikhah said no!

So what does this mean, as it applies to our discussion? Does the fact that the Jewish authorities rejected Christ somehow make some indictment in your mind to Catholic Sacred Tradition?

I am not following your point here.

 

[PRmerger]

No, why would Baha’u’llah worship Himself?

Fair enough.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course, my example was ‘idiotic’…it was meant to be. I realize that not all scripture is symbolic, far from it, but when a literal reading goes against rational thought and true science, then it is the spiritual meaning and intent that we should look for lest we end-up in superstition and division. Baha’u’llah has unsealed the previously sealed.

And that is why we read the Scriptures through the lens of the Tradition which gave us these Scriptures.

 

[arthra]

I still don’t have an answer to my question.

Do bahai acknowledge as John (which you say you believe in) tells us that Jesus Christ created the world.

Don’t avoid the question, don’t just say “God created the universe and everything therein.”
Did the person known as Jesus of Nazareth, the word of God who was with God and was God create the universe and everything that began to exist? Please answer.

We do not avoid your question by expressing that God created everything.

God caused the Manifestations to appear…this would include Jesus…

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 46

Baha’u’llah revealed:

***These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose.

From Him proceed their knowledge and power;

from Him is derived their sovereignty.

The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory.

They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom.

Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…

These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles.

By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.***

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 47

In a provisional translation into English “Tablet of the Manifestation” Baha’u’llah also revealed

Every one who is endowed with a clear insight will behold that **They (the Manifestations) were created before the creation of heaven and earth, **and that this has ever been the Throne of the Merciful, and will forever be as it was; that there is no relation, connection, similarity or reference between that Throne and all else save it, and that all things testify with their inmost tongue; “Verily, these (bodies) are the Thrones of the Merciful One.” They have no like in creation, nor any equal in the world of emanation. From their elements all have appeared in such wise that thou wilt find that, verily, from their Fire fire hath appeared in the universe and hath spoken in the Blessed Branch of Unity, in the lofty Sinai of Moses the Interlocutor, and that from their Waters thou findest every soul living and immortal. So, likewise, after this manner, consider its other elements; but with manifest certainty.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

That, frankly, is the most absurd thing that’s been posited on this thread.

I don’t think it’s smart for me to take the Bahais interpretation of what the Koran says over the million other sites that proclaim that Christ did not die via crucifixion according to Islam.

It’s not just the Bahais who say that the Quran text does not say that an imposter was crucified; so do modern Quran commentators and western Islamologists. I have a degree in Islamology, read the Quran in Arabic, did courses in tafsir/ quranic commentary, and so on. In one of my courses the late Nasr Abu Zayd, who was living in exile in Leiden because his life was under threat by some fundamentalists in Egypt, explained first what the Quranic text meant, and also how the mistaken idea that Christ had not been crucified grew up in the Muslim world.

In religion, as in any other field of study, “everybody knows” is a weak argument. In this case, it is not even a true argument. Thanks in part to dialogue with Christians and orientalists who have brought fresh eyes to an old commonplace, the intellectual classes of the Islamic world are beginning to recognize that this was a mistaken idea.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I still don’t have an answer to my question.

Do bahai acknowledge as John (which you say you believe in) tells us that Jesus Christ created the world.

Don’t avoid the question, don’t just say “God created the universe and everything therein.”
Did the person known as Jesus of Nazareth, the word of God who was with God and was God create the universe and everything that began to exist? Please answer.

Yes, the Bahai theology of creation is very Johannine. So is classical Islamic theology for that matter. God is believed to emanate a Word which is not the word of any human language, but rather a metaphysical principle, and through this Word all creation, human beings included, comes into being. The Word is also called First Will, Intellect, Reason, and the First Mind. In less abstract terms, it is described as God’s wish to be known. At the beginning of The Secret of Divine Civilization Abdu’l-Baha writes

This supreme emblem of God stands first in the order of creation and first in rank, taking precedence over all created things. Witness to it is the Holy Tradition, “Before all else, God created the mind.” From the dawn of creation, it was made to be revealed in the temple of man.

In that text, he choses to speak of the primal Intellect rather than the Word, because he is going to appeal to rational argument.

The relationship between the Word in creation and the Word in Christ can be illustrated from a text by the Bab:

If, however, thou art sailing upon the sea of creation, know thou that the First Remembrance, which is the Primal Will of God, may be likened unto the sun. God hath created Him through the potency of His might, and He hath, from the beginning that hath no beginning, caused Him to be manifested in every Dispensation through the compelling power of His behest, and God will, to the end that knoweth no end, continue to manifest Him according to the good-pleasure of His invincible Purpose.

And know thou that He indeed resembleth the sun. Were the risings of the sun to continue till the end that hath no end, yet there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun; and were its settings to endure for evermore, still there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun. It is this** Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and speaketh forth in every revealed Book**. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as the First deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last oweth its lastness unto It.

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God;
(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 125)

While we speak of “Manifestations of God”, this is shorthand: they are particular and historical manifestations of the Primal Will of God - which is the Word.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

how does a bahai make atonement to the Supreme Being for their sins against Him?

Baha’u’llah says that the soul of the sinner is sanctified through Christ:

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. … Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and** the soul of the sinner sanctified**. … He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.
(Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not just the Bahais who say that the Quran text does not say that an imposter was crucified; so do modern Quran commentators and western Islamologists.

The argument is not what the Koran text says.

The argument we Catholics are presenting is whether we should believe what Mohammed professes regarding the crucifixion of Christ, since he too is allegedly a “manifestation of God”.

And the understanding is that Mohammed did proclaim that Jesus never was crucified.

At least, that is the Islamic understanding.

So are we to believe this manifestation of God, Mohammed, whose beliefs are in direct contradiction to the Bahai manifestation of God, regarding the death of Christ?

In religion, as in any other field of study, “everybody knows” is a weak argument.

Oh, believe me, friend, I absolutely understand this. There are millions of Catholics who are quite clueless about the teachings of their own Church, so I have no argument with you here.

In this case, it is not even a true argument. Thanks in part to dialogue with Christians and orientalists who have brought fresh eyes to an old commonplace, the intellectual classes of the Islamic world are beginning to recognize that this was a mistaken idea.

With my above acknowledgement regarding “everybody knows” being a weak argument notwithstanding, these Islamic leaders’ proclamations regarding Jesus NOT being crucified must be addressed by the Bahais here on this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=Db2sy3lLBdU

youtube.com/watch?v=sPzZRn0lHXc

youtube.com/watch?v=1FXSVhTKhAQ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

We do not avoid your question by expressing that God created everything.

God caused the Manifestations to appear…this would include Jesus…

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 46

Baha’u’llah revealed:

***These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose.

From Him proceed their knowledge and power;

from Him is derived their sovereignty.

The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory.

They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom.

Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…

These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles.

By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.***

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 47

In a provisional translation into English “Tablet of the Manifestation” Baha’u’llah also revealed

Every one who is endowed with a clear insight will behold that **They (the Manifestations) were created before the creation of heaven and earth, **and that this has ever been the Throne of the Merciful, and will forever be as it was; that there is no relation, connection, similarity or reference between that Throne and all else save it, and that all things testify with their inmost tongue; “Verily, these (bodies) are the Thrones of the Merciful One.” They have no like in creation, nor any equal in the world of emanation. From their elements all have appeared in such wise that thou wilt find that, verily, from their Fire fire hath appeared in the universe and hath spoken in the Blessed Branch of Unity, in the lofty Sinai of Moses the Interlocutor, and that from their Waters thou findest every soul living and immortal. So, likewise, after this manner, consider its other elements; but with manifest certainty.

So you deny the first chapter of John? That the word created everything that began to exist?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes, the Bahai theology of creation is very Johannine. So is classical Islamic theology for that matter. God is believed to emanate a Word which is not the word of any human language, but rather a metaphysical principle, and through this Word all creation, human beings included, comes into being. The Word is also called First Will, Intellect, Reason, and the First Mind. In less abstract terms, it is described as God’s wish to be known. At the beginning of The Secret of Divine Civilization Abdu’l-Baha writes
In that text, he choses to speak of the primal Intellect rather than the Word, because he is going to appeal to rational argument.

The relationship between the Word in creation and the Word in Christ can be illustrated from a text by the Bab:

This quite simply is not what John tells us. In john the word is personofied in the person of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 At the beginning of time the Word already was; and God had the Word abiding with him, and the Word was God. 2 He abode, at the beginning of time, with God. 3 It was through him that all things came into being, and without him came nothing that has come to be. 4 In him there was life, and that life was the light of men.[1] 5 And the light shines in darkness, a darkness which was not able to master it…14 And the Word was made flesh, and came to dwell among us; and we had sight of his glory, glory such as belongs to the Father’s only-begotten Son, full of grace and truth. 15 We have John’s witness to him; I told you, cried John, there was one coming after me who takes rank before me; he was when I was not.

The word is Jesus Christ no matter how you stretch it. And he is the creator. John isn’t saying the word was in Jesus Christ, he is saying Jesus christ was the word.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
. Again, thank you for your courtesy and articulating your understanding. Here is mine, as best I can state it.

. When I think of “Jesus”, I am thinking of that physical human being who was born and lived 2000 years ago. When I think of that Godly Essence Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, I am thinking of an Eternal Being Who appears from age to age. 2000 years ago, He appeared in Jesus, but I would, in a sense, identify “Jesus” as I would identify a beautiful suit of clothes which this Eternal Being Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” “wore”, in a sense. Do you see the difference?

. The way Baha’is view this Eternal Manifestation of God in regarding the words of Jesus: “No one cometh to the Father (God) but by Me (the Manifestation)” That is, we cannot approach God or come to know Him except by approaching His Manifestation and hearing His Word.

. The term 'Manifestation" is used in two ways. One is the Single, Eternal Manifestation of God Who appears from age to age in the garb of human attire. The other is with respect to each of these human identities, commonly called Prophets, i.e. Moses, Jesus, Baha’u’llah. For They each have their own individuality, personality, DNA, etc. Therefore, Moses was not Jesus was not Baha’u’llah.

. But yet They are all expressions of what we term as this Universal Manifestation of God, and in that spiritual sense, are One and the same Being. Hence, when Jesus speaks of His Return, we do not expect the same physical person of Jesus, the son of Mary, Who lived 2000 years ago. This correlates with Elijah’s expected Return which was fulfilled with the coming of John the Baptist, who was not the same physical person who lived a thousand years before.

. Even as the attributes and purpose of Elijah were once again made manifest in John, so to the attributes and purpose of Jesus coming have become manifest in Baha’u’llah. They are not the same physical person, DNA, etc.

. The analogy is given of this years rose in the garden which brings all the beauty and fragrance of the rose of last year, or years before. We can say: “The Rose has returned!” and happily behold the beauty and enjoy the fragrance, although outwardly it is not the same identical rose of last year. Indeed, its function is the same, to bring us those qualities once again into our world for our benefit.

. Although the “Rose” of 2000 years ago was crucified, yet He lives. Now a new Rose has appeared, restoring to the world a fresh outpouring, from the same heavenly garden, the beauty and fragrance of God’s love, in fulfillment of that which was promised in all the Holy Books.

Okay but here is my problem with what you are saying…By the way I am glad we agree that John was in the Spirit of Elijah but not the same person.

But see you are correct that the scripture stated that first would come John the Bap. then Jesus.

And I think we can both agree, yes it happened just as predicted.

But see Jesus DID say he would return body and soul the same way he left.

Remember the Son of Man would come down from the clouds. acts 1:9-11 tells us he would come down the same as he went up. As Jesus God made Man.

In the New Testament we know who he is. He revealed himself as Man. He was visible. For all to see. He was God made man. Human and Divine,

So we as humans saw him as a human. By the Power of the Holy Spirit we saw GOD made Man.

He said he would return as that human person.

The scripture of Matthew is full of it.

Son of Man is comming in his Fathers Glory.
You will not SEE me again until you say…
As lightning is visible so will be the SON OF MAN…

Visible we will see the SON OF MAN! The Son of Man has been revealed to us in the human form as Jesus Christ. We know what he looks like. Millions have testified to his presence.

 

[SteveVH]

Every one who is endowed with a clear insight will behold that They (the Manifestations) were created before the creation of heaven and earth, and that this has ever been the Throne of the Merciful…

Ah yes, the divinity of Christ, one more area where the Baha’i faith and Christianity are conflicted. Lets take a look at a statement from the Baha’i Faith United States Official Website:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

Sounds very Christian. It is also very deceptive. The word “divine” has been re-invented to mean something very different from the Christian definition of the word, in use for over 2000 years. In fact, the Baha’i believe that Jesus is a creature, like you and I; very special, but a “creation” nonetheless. This is why there is no problem in the Baha’i faith tradition with equating Moses, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah with Jesus Christ. But this belief is directly opposed to Christianity.

Divinity belongs to God alone. It is His nature, not ours. He is eternal, we are not. He is the Creator and we are the created. Jesus, being divine, was never created, but has existed as the Son of God for eternity. He has no beginning. He became man, not by possessing some human body to be discarded, but by assuming human flesh, now glorified forever. No other person who has ever walked the planet was like Jesus. He is literally “God with us”.

So we would completely reject your understanding of the word “divine” and the subsequent theology concerning the Son of God.

 

[SteveVH]

Every one who is endowed with a clear insight will behold that They (the Manifestations) were created before the creation of heaven and earth, and that this has ever been the Throne of the Merciful…

Now lets take a look at a statement from the Baha’i Faith United States Official Website:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.”

Sounds very Christian. It is also very deceptive. As evidenced from arthra’s quote, the actual belief is that Jesus was created (and therefore not divine). The word “divine” has been re-invented to mean something very different from the Christian definition of the word, in use for over 2000 years. In fact, the Baha’i believe that Jesus is a creature, like you and I; very special, but a “creation” nonetheless. This is why there is no problem in the Baha’i faith tradition with equating Moses, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah with Jesus Christ. But this belief is directly opposed to Christianity.

Divinity belongs to God alone. It is His nature, not ours. He is eternal, we are not. He is the Creator and we are the created. Jesus, being divine, was never created, but has existed as the Son of God for eternity. He has no beginning. He became man, not by possessing some human body to be discarded, but by assuming human flesh, now glorified forever. No other person who has ever walked the planet was like Jesus. He is literally “God with us”.

So we would completely reject your understanding of the word “divine” and the subsequent theology concerning the Son of God.

 

[SteveVH]

We do not avoid your question by expressing that God created everything.

God caused the Manifestations to appear…this would include Jesus…

This really comes down to a very simple yes or no answer, arthra. Do you believe that Jesus created the universe? Yes? No? Please, no more quotes.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Now lets take a look at a statement from the Baha’i Faith United States Official Website:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended."

Sounds very Christian. It is also very deceptive. As evidenced from arthra’s quote, the actual belief is that Jesus was created (and therefore not divine). The word “divine” has been re-invented to mean something very different from the Christian definition of the word, in use for over 2000 years. In fact, the Baha’i believe that Jesus is a creature, like you and I; very special, but a “creation” nonetheless. This is why there is no problem in the Baha’i faith tradition with equating Moses, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah with Jesus Christ. But this belief is directly opposed to Christianity.

Divinity belongs to God alone. It is His nature, not ours. He is eternal, we are not. He is the Creator and we are the created. Jesus, being divine, was never created, but has existed as the Son of God for eternity. He has no beginning. He became man, not by possessing some human body to be discarded, but by assuming human flesh, now glorified forever. No other person who has ever walked the planet was like Jesus. He is literally “God with us”.

So we would completely reject your understanding of the word “divine” and the subsequent theology concerning the Son of God.

I’m not sure bahai themselves know what they believe. I;ve had bahai say the manifestations are eternal beings whom have always existed alongside God and the universe. The bahai need a clear and concise language in order to stop pretending they agree with everyone.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not sure bahai themselves know what they believe. I;ve had bahai say the manifestations are eternal beings whom have always existed alongside God and the universe. The bahai need a clear and concise language in order to stop pretending they agree with everyone.

So true.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

John isn’t saying the word was in Jesus Christ, he is saying Jesus christ was the word.

That’s how I understand the Bahai quotes I gave too.

The difference is not in the theology of creation, but rather that Christians generally think that the Word only became flesh once, Bahais believe that this is God’s way from the beginning and will continue to be God’s way into the future.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I’m not sure bahai themselves know what they believe. I;ve had bahai say the manifestations are eternal beings whom have always existed alongside God and the universe. .

That would be a reference to the three-tier model of God - the Word/Primal Will - creation that we find in the Bahai scriptures. Since the Word/Primal Will precedes (or better, underlies) creation, and time is part of creation, the Word exists before and after and during all things.

 

[rinnie]

I’m not sure bahai themselves know what they believe. I;ve had bahai say the manifestations are eternal beings whom have always existed alongside God and the universe. The bahai need a clear and concise language in order to stop pretending they agree with everyone.

From what I have observed here for the last month or so is this.

Ah to be blunt and to the point its SS.

Pretty much as the Protestant view on scripture. Only at least we can agree with the Protestants on what the word of God is, our largest disagreement with them is we don’t feel they have the authority of the HS to preach or teach it, thats from the Church.

But the problem we are dealing with here is we don’t even agree with them on the word of God.

Now not all, at least sometimes they do come up with a true word or scripture of God that we can at least agree on as being God’s word, but not his teaching.

So (trying to be as kind and considerate as possible and making it short) our problem and frustration with them begins with truth. We need truth to define truth.

They have some truth.

And again no disrespect they don’t even agree with one another much.

Why? Simple. They feel that they can be lead by thier own heart. Which on a human level is impossible. Why? Again the word and mind of God is not purely human. It is human and Divine.

They still can’t see or rather accept Jesus was human and Divine, if he was not he could never teach what he taught and not contradict himself as their prophet does.

They try to accuse Jesus of doing it, until we show them it is not what Jesus said, its how they define what he said.

Like John the Bapt. they finally understood that he was Elijah in the Spirit but that does not mean the same person. Again they did after awhile accept Catholic teaching.

But until they we given it were confused by it. The proof is in these threads the last month or so.

But we also have to remember to be kind and sometimes walk away when we become frustrated. We are also not here to convert, but to spread the Truth as Christ taught it.

 

[SteveVH]

That’s how I understand the Bahai quotes I gave too.

The difference is not in the theology of creation, but rather that Christians generally think that the Word only became flesh once, Bahais believe that this is God’s way from the beginning and will continue to be God’s way into the future.

Sen, could you please give us a thumbnail version of the Baha’i understanding of salvation? As you are aware we believe that Christ became incarnate, suffered, died and rose bodily from the grave for the salvation of the world. His work is finished; accomplished. We only wait for his final return.

What is the Baha’i view of the Christian understanding concerning redemption and salvation through Jesus Christ, considering that the belief seems to be that God becomes incarnate at various times in history in a continuing, never ending cycle?

Thank you.