Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Nick44]

And yet it is self evident that the world is not embracing this concept, but rather going in the opposite direction.

And so God is dependent upon man in order to reveal his plan?

To be a light in the darkness. That is the point. We are not called to be successful. We are called to be faithful even if everyone around us is unfaithful.

And so we save ourselves by our good works, is that what you are saying? Where does the saving sacrifice of Christ fit into all of this? And, as I have said before, it has been roughly 150 years since Baha’u’llah’s death. Where is all of this wonderful change in the structure of society? There is zero evidence that this is true. And yes, I have read all of the evidence you have provided.

Steve, probably the biggest change since Baha’u’llah’s passing (121 yrs ago) is the realization of the “Oneness of Mankind”. As you know, the main teaching of the Faith is Unity. The full flower of the Kingdom of God on Earth may still be centuries away, we don’t really know how long it will take. Be patient, my friend, it will happen.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, probably the biggest change since Baha’u’llah’s passing (121 yrs ago) is the realization of the “Oneness of Mankind”. As you know, the main teaching of the Faith is Unity. The full flower of the Kingdom of God on Earth may still be centuries away, we don’t really know how long it will take. Be patient, my friend, it will happen.

But the position of “trust me, it will happen” is not a very convincing position.

Knowledge is based on three necessary components: truth, belief, and justification. We cannot “know” something that is false. We cannot “know” something that we do not believe, and any belief we have must be justified. I see none of these components in the Baha’i position. It is really nothing but supposition.

 

[daler]

But the position of “trust me, it will happen” is not a very convincing position.

Knowledge is based on three necessary components: truth, belief, and justification. We cannot “know” something that is false. We cannot “know” something that we do not believe, and any belief we have must be justified. I see none of these components in the Baha’i position. It is really nothing but supposition.

Steve,
. I think I hear you asking about the change in the world since 1844 with the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I would suggest that a spiritual catalyst is responsible for both the social and technological realms apparent in the world. There has been unleashed a transformation of unparalleled significance in all of recorded history. This, Baha’is maintain, is a direct result of the Revelation of God, and is the Cause of the advancement of the rights of women, the elimination of slavery, the fall of despots, the rearrangement of economic structures, the political upheavals, the establishment of world tribunals, the scientific discoveries affecting every facet of society, modern medicine, etc, etc.

. “The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System – the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. I think I hear you asking about the change in the world since 1844 with the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I would suggest that a spiritual catalyst is responsible for both the social and technological realms apparent in the world. There has been unleashed a transformation of unparalleled significance in all of recorded history.

Okay, you can’t just make statements such as this without backing them up. A transformation of what, exactly, and how is it unparalleled in all of recorded history? I ask you to please just answer this question yourself. I cannot take anymore volumes of quotations.

This, Baha’is maintain, is a direct result of the Revelation of God, and is the Cause of the advancement of the rights of women, the elimination of slavery, the fall of despots, the rearrangement of economic structures, the political upheavals, the establishment of world tribunals, the scientific discoveries affecting every facet of society, modern medicine, etc, etc.

And so you are attributing all of this to the Baha’i faith which 99.99% of the world does not even recognize? The Catholic Church has been advancing the rights of women for centuries; gave the world the scientific method; has stood up against slavery of any kind (especially to sin), has taken down super powers without firing a shot (Rome, the Soviet Union), established the first hospitals and health care systems and I could go on…

Exactly what has the Baha’i faith done in these areas?

. “The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System – the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” (Baha’u’llah)

And, apparently, which mortal eyes have still not witnessed. This is nothing more than smoke, daler. Give us some substance, something even close to tangible, with which these wondrous claims can be verified. How many Baha’i hospitals are there? What has been the Baha’i contribution to science and medicine? How has the Baha’i faith influenced the countries of the world. Where is this New World Order in reality?

 

[daler]

Even it is not absurd - we still search for another meaning

In this, we Bahais can place ourselves in a long tradition of scriptural readings (exegesis), from Jewish symbolic interpretations, through Origen’s three-fold meanings, and on to more elaborate medieval and scholastic schemes. “The Bible as literature” is not a 20th century idea in fact. In all these traditions, Bahai included, the literary approach involves the question how we do know when the literal meaning is not the primary meaning? And among all the teleological and metaphorical and allegorical readings, how do we know which to reject? I don’t know of any easy answer to this, except for Origen’s rule of reading the scripture in the light of scripture, and then praying. Since “in the light of revelation” for Bahais includes the Bahai scriptures, we are likely to come to different readings. The words of scripture may mean something different to us as Bahais - without this entailing a claim that those words always REALLY meant what they mean to Bahais. To take an example, “…To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.” (Revelation 2:17) To a Bahai, the literal meaning of “a white stone” is not primary, while the teleological meaning appears as plain and loud as thunder. The verse has been reshaped by being transported into the Bahai context. The same could be said of scriptural verses which have had one meaning in early church history, and another at a later date. The application of the exodus to the abolition of slavery in the 19th and 20th centuries is an example. This is precisely the nature of scripture, that it is reinterpreted and re-applied time and again for many centuries.

Given my background, my understanding of the post-resurrection narratives is framed by a source criticism. The first accounts are those of Paul, on the road to Damascus, and then Mark, Matthew, Luke-Acts and John. When we put them in this order we see a development in the direction of physical resurrection and physical specifics. If we saw a development in the opposite direction, we could say, at first the church understood the physical resurrection, and over time they perceived there was more. For example, the Gospel of John with its doctrine of the Word can be understood as the results of reflection on the message of the other Gospels. But when physical details appear in a late record, such as those of Luke 24, we have to ask, where was the knowledge of these things in the previous generations? Did it even happen? is a legitimate question, to which we can have no answer. What can be salvaged from this after the source-critical demolition ball has done its work, is the philosophical reflection that, in any case, the primary significance of the text for us today is the message that the story is intended to convey, and not its historicity.

Sen,
. What an amazing summary. Compliments to the chef!

. As to the meaning of the “white stone”, what enters my mind is a “pure faith”, the new name of which is Baha’i, who have partaken of the hidden manna, or the new Revelation of Baha’u’llah in fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy that “When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.” But none know this save for those who have received it by turning to the Dayspring of Revelation and Fountain of His Laws…

. The “New Heaven and New Earth” is of course the New Revelation pouring down as rain upon the soil of the human hearts which are open to receive it, benefiting from the natural spiritual sustenance contained in the Word of God given in such a great measure in this Day of God.

. “For man does not live by bread alone, but by “every word” which proceeds from the Mouth of the Lord.” As Jesus said, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bare them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you unto all truth.” Hence, “every word” was not yet spoken at the time of Jesus, not because He could not speak them, but because we could not bare them yet. Nevertheless, He built upon the previous foundation of the Words of God given by Noah, Abraham, and Moses. So in each successive stage of human development, the Words of God were given according to human capacity to bare them.

 

[Nick44]

Steve,
. I think I hear you asking about the change in the world since 1844 with the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I would suggest that a spiritual catalyst is responsible for both the social and technological realms apparent in the world. There has been unleashed a transformation of unparalleled significance in all of recorded history. This, Baha’is maintain, is a direct result of the Revelation of God, and is the Cause of the advancement of the rights of women, the elimination of slavery, the fall of despots, the rearrangement of economic structures, the political upheavals, the establishment of world tribunals, the scientific discoveries affecting every facet of society, modern medicine, etc, etc.

. “The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System – the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.”

Baha’u’llah

Good point! If you look at a graph of human advancement, it’s basically horizontal until 1844, and then till now it’s almost vertical. My, my, yet another ‘coincidence’.

 

[Nick44]

Okay, you can’t just make statements such as this without backing them up. A transformation of what, exactly, and how is it unparalleled in all of recorded history? I ask you to please just answer this question yourself. I cannot take anymore volumes of quotations.

And so you are attributing all of this to the Baha’i faith which 99.99% of the world does not even recognize? The Catholic Church has been advancing the rights of women for centuries; gave the world the scientific method; has stood up against slavery of any kind (especially to sin), has taken down super powers without firing a shot (Rome, the Soviet Union), established the first hospitals and health care systems and I could go on…

Exactly what has the Baha’i faith done in these areas?

Steve, and where was the great Christian civilization in around 150 AD? Geez, you want everything to happen yesterday, but things happen slowly and evolve over time. I will tell you that the teachings of Baha’u’llah are being accepted and put into practice world-wide, even by those who don’t believe in God and are unaware of their source.

ONLY Baha’is are allowed to contribute funds to the Faith; we are relatively few in number and there is still a lot of work to do…but we plow ahead, assured of assistance by Baha’u’llah, and reaching receptive souls one by one.

And, apparently, which mortal eyes have still not witnessed. This is nothing more than smoke, daler. Give us some substance, something even close to tangible, with which these wondrous claims can be verified. How many Baha’i hospitals are there? What has been the Baha’i contribution to science and medicine? How has the Baha’i faith influenced the countries of the world. Where is this New World Order in reality?

 

[daler]

Okay, you can’t just make statements such as this without backing them up. A transformation of what, exactly, and how is it unparalleled in all of recorded history? I ask you to please just answer this question yourself. I cannot take anymore volumes of quotations.

And so you are attributing all of this to the Baha’i faith which 99.99% of the world does not even recognize? The Catholic Church has been advancing the rights of women for centuries; gave the world the scientific method; has stood up against slavery of any kind (especially to sin), has taken down super powers without firing a shot (Rome, the Soviet Union), established the first
hospitals and health care systems and I could go on…

Exactly what has the Baha’i faith done in these areas?

And, apparently, which mortal eyes have still not witnessed. This is nothing more than smoke, daler. Give us some substance, something even close to tangible, with which these wondrous claims can be verified. How many Baha’i hospitals are there? What has been the Baha’i contribution to science and medicine? How has the Baha’i faith influenced the countries of the world. Where is this New World Order in reality?

Steve,
. I appreciate your further questions here. I will ask you to back up as if you are examining the entire planet from afar, like when they first shot photographs of the earth from the moon, etc. Step way, way out and observe the massive amount of change that has taken place in the past 150 or 170 years or so ago.

. There is a process at work, something like fertilizer, or Miracle Grow, being sprinkled in the garden. Humor me a moment and let us just call it Spiritual Grow…

. To study scientific advancements alone, the exponential registration of patents, for example, from steam locomotion to the space shuttle, from simple telescopes to the Hubble, from sawing off limbs on the battlefield to X-rays, MRIs, ambulances, air transportation, etc, etc.

. What I am saying is that this is not a mere “coincidence” of history that this is happening now. Rather, that whether these advances have occurred through Baha’is or non-Baha’is specifically is not relevant to the occurrence of all of this advancement. God has affected this change through the fertilizing influence of His Revelation across all spectrums of society and human endeavor. This is called “Inspiration”, and the Instrument of all of this Inspiration is the “Word of God” and the effects of Words of God are manifest in the world of being. It is not specific to “Baha’is”.

. Historically, absolutely the Church has been instrumental and still is instrumental in the welfare and education of humanity. It has drawn its Inspiration from the Word of God as well. Think of a “well”, in which water has been drawn for thousands of years. Now a new “well” has been given to mankind with infinitely more water to nourish the crops. The crops naturally grow. The evidence of this “new well” is the massive growth of the crops, unparalleled in all of human history. The leaves and fruits thereof are the scientific achievements we have seen on the one hand, and the tumultuous upheaval in the social order.

. This is not a one-second or one-minute “presto-chango” affair secured by the wave of a magic wand, but rather a centuries long change occurring in the affairs of humanity in response to the Word of God as revealed by the Pen (in this Day) of Baha’u’llah. This is what has unleashed all these forces of our time: “This is the great and terrible Day of the Lord”

Joel 2:28-32

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

 

[daler]

And, apparently, which mortal eyes have still not witnessed. This is nothing more than smoke, daler. Give us some substance, something even close to tangible, with which these wondrous claims can be verified. How many Baha’i hospitals are there? What has been the Baha’i contribution to science and medicine? How has the Baha’i faith influenced the countries of the world. Where is this New World Order in reality?

Steve,
. To answer with a bit more precision, mortal eyes have witnessed the vastness in the advancement of science and technology, such as we are using to communicate here on the Internet - a long way from the Pony Express. Yes?

. Mortal eyes have witnessed the atomic age, and thankfully, the collaboration of the nations of the world to reduce armaments and industrial accidents like Fukushima and Chernobyl. We have gone from sketching and oil paint to digital photography instantaneously in the hands of a billion cell phones across the entire globe!

. Is all of this only smoke??? I had a double hernia operation last year with three small incisions below the navel and was walking around the same day!! My last visit to the dentist he digitally x-rayed my entire set of teeth!!

. As to individual Baha’is making their contribution, there are many, for education is very, very highly stressed. My friends include a neuro-surgeon, many physicians, numerous educators, scientists of various fields, including NASA. Indeed, too numerous to mention. What is tragic, however, is that in Iran, (Elam), Baha’is are not admitted into higher educational institutions, some of which they founded, due to the extreme genocidal practices of the regime in cohorts with the fanatical religious clergy.

. As to “the smoke”, my dear friend, the Baha’is are in the very center of the fire…

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. I appreciate your further questions here. I will ask you to back up as if you are examining the entire planet from afar, like when they first shot photographs of the earth from the moon, etc. Step way, way out and observe the massive amount of change that has taken place in the past 150 or 170 years or so ago.

. There is a process at work, something like fertilizer, or Miracle Grow, being sprinkled in the garden. Humor me a moment and let us just call it Spiritual Grow…

. To study scientific advancements alone, the exponential registration of patents, for example, from steam locomotion to the space shuttle, from simple telescopes to the Hubble, from sawing off limbs on the battlefield to X-rays, MRIs, ambulances, air transportation, etc, etc.

. What I am saying is that this is not a mere “coincidence” of history that this is happening now. Rather, that whether these advances have occurred through Baha’is or non-Baha’is specifically is not relevant to the occurrence of all of this advancement. God has affected this change through the fertilizing influence of His Revelation across all spectrums of society and human endeavor. This is called “Inspiration”, and the Instrument of all of this Inspiration is the “Word of God” and the effects of Words of God are manifest in the world of being. It is not specific to “Baha’is”.

. Historically, absolutely the Church has been instrumental and still is instrumental in the welfare and education of humanity. It has drawn its Inspiration from the Word of God as well. Think of a “well”, in which water has been drawn for thousands of years. Now a new “well” has been given to mankind with infinitely more water to nourish the crops. The crops naturally grow. The evidence of this “new well” is the massive growth of the crops, unparalleled in all of human history. The leaves and fruits thereof are the scientific achievements we have seen on the one hand, and the tumultuous upheaval in the social order.

. This is not a one-second or one-minute “presto-chango” affair secured by the wave of a magic wand, but rather a centuries long change occurring in the affairs of humanity in response to the Word of God as revealed by the Pen (in this Day) of Baha’u’llah. This is what has unleashed all these forces of our time: “This is the great and terrible Day of the Lord”

Considering all you have said, my question then is why should I even look at Baha’u’llah if those responsible for the change in the world are not even Baha’i. How is this a convincing argument at all? The fact that Mirza Hussain happened to be born in a period of rapid scientific and technological advances means nothing unless you can show that he or his followers were directly responsible for these advancements which are somehow specifically related to your faith tradition. If not, you have no more credibility than the person next door.

 

[SteveVH]

daler;11257108:

Steve,
. I appreciate your further questions here. I will ask you to back up as if you are examining the entire planet from afar, like when they first shot photographs of the earth from the moon, etc. Step way, way out and observe the massive amount of change that has taken place in the past 150 or 170 years or so ago.

. There is a process at work, something like fertilizer, or Miracle Grow, being sprinkled in the garden. Humor me a moment and let us just call it Spiritual Grow…

. To study scientific advancements alone, the exponential registration of patents, for example, from steam locomotion to the space shuttle, from simple telescopes to the Hubble, from sawing off limbs on the battlefield to X-rays, MRIs, ambulances, air transportation, etc, etc.

. What I am saying is that this is not a mere “coincidence” of history that this is happening now. Rather, that whether these advances have occurred through Baha’is or non-Baha’is specifically is not relevant to the occurrence of all of this advancement. God has affected this change through the fertilizing influence of His Revelation across all spectrums of society and human endeavor. This is called “Inspiration”, and the Instrument of all of this Inspiration is the “Word of God” and the effects of Words of God are manifest in the world of being. It is not specific to “Baha’is”.

. Historically, absolutely the Church has been instrumental and still is instrumental in the welfare and education of humanity. It has drawn its Inspiration from the Word of God as well. Think of a “well”, in which water has been drawn for thousands of years. Now a new “well” has been given to mankind with infinitely more water to nourish the crops. The crops naturally grow. The evidence of this “new well” is the massive growth of the crops, unparalleled in all of human history. The leaves and fruits thereof are the scientific achievements we have seen on the one hand, and the tumultuous upheaval in the social order.

. This is not a one-second or one-minute “presto-chango” affair secured by the wave of a magic wand, but rather a centuries long change occurring in the affairs of humanity in response to the Word of God as revealed by the Pen (in this Day) of Baha’u’llah. This is what has unleashed all these forces of our time: “This is the great and terrible Day of the Lord”

Considering all you have said, my question then is why should I even look at Baha’u’llah if those responsible for the change in the world are not even Baha’i. How is this a convincing argument at all? The fact that Mirza Hussain happened to be born in a period of rapid scientific and technological advances means nothing unless you can show that he or his followers were directly responsible for these advancements which are somehow specifically related to your faith tradition. If not, you have no more credibility than the person next door.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I will give you again, my opinion.

I feel the Gospel stories were written partly to appeal to the religious, political and social climates surrounding Christianity at the time and were intended to impart the TRUTHS of Jesus Mission to the gentiles and the Jews at the time. They were written in a manner which would appeal to the reader, again, at the time of writing, and were intended, not necessarily for historical accuracy, but rather for spiritual accuracy.

The Baha’i Texts on the other hand have two components, history and Revelation. The Revelation component of Baha’u’llah’s Writings is as authentic as it comes in regards to the actual Words of the Manifestation of God. The majority of Baha’u’llah’s Writings impart spiritual truths and provide guidance for personal and collective salvation.

The historical component of the Baha’i Texts were predominantly written by Nabil (one of Baha’u’llahs most staunch disciples) and his narrative was authenticated and translated by the Centre of the Covenant.

The Baha’i Covenant is absolutely explicit. It is the mainstay of all truth found within the Baha’i Religion. It enables complete trust in the expositions of Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, since all of these entities were explicitly expounded upon by Baha’u’llah Himself, in completely clear Writing in His Most Holy Book and His Will and Testament.

Other historical narratives were also authentically written by Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. There are a large amount of personal narratives to be found written by prominent Baha’is who kept very accurate records of events, during the Bab and Baha’u’llah’s life.

The gospel of Luke specifically Sen, is the most historically minded of the gospels. Luke opens his work with this very intention, to convey the truth of the events which has happened. If you maintain that the gospels as a whole do not portray a literal reality but merely a message, there is a problem when it comes to the narrative of the gospels in general. That is they all more or less start with John (luke feels it necessary to explain how Christ was conceived in great detail along with John the Baptist’s birth) the Baptist and the baptism of Christ or announcing of Christ by John. Then they all end on the resurrection. If the gospels purpose wasn’t to be literal but merely expound the teachings of Christ, why not have composed a simple gospel of Thomas? A collections of words and sayings? The authors felt it necessary to convey the context of when these things were said, and we can’t understand some of Jesus’s parables and the like without the context. We might also note the details the gospel authors mention, the names of places, the way Jesus went between certain places (or Paul in the case of the acts of the apostles) and other details which would not be needed if your thesis was correct. It seems to this layman that the gospels, Luke especially are not describing a religious story, but actual history.

But my main point has not been addressed, for even if you can demonstrate that Luke should be read as a metaphorical work and that nothing (except that which the bahai agree with) happened, I can do the exact same thing with your texts. Insisting that you have misunderstood them all, your Prophet’s son to the council to your scholars. This may seem like a tart point, but you do the exact same thing to the Christian church when you say our beliefs are wrong. Our beliefs which come from the apostles and those whom the apostles taught throughout the ages, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin martyr, Melito of Sardis, Iraneaus, Clement of Rome, Tertulian and etc. If you can simply dismiss our historic tradition of interpreting our own texts which we have read in the original language in a consistent tradition since the beginning, why should you object to me doing the exact same thing when it comes to your prophet apparently and absolutely saying it must be a literal 1000 years?

 

[daler]

SteveVH;11257246:

Considering all you have said, my question then is why should I even look at Baha’u’llah if those responsible for the change in the world are not even Baha’i. How is this a convincing argument at all? The fact that Mirza Hussain happened to be born in a period of rapid scientific and technological advances means nothing unless you can show that he or his followers were directly responsible for these advancements which are somehow specifically related to your faith tradition. If not, you have no more credibility than the person next door.

Steve,
. Historically, for those who have studied the matter deeply, the emergence from the European Dark Ages is unquestionably linked to the advancement of science, mathematics, and art from the Islamic cultures which were, like Europe, essentially “dead in the water” until the effects of the Revelation of Muhammad entered the scene. The effect upon the world transformed civilization as they knew it, relative to a span of many centuries, until again, it eventually plateaued.

. Now one could discount the accuracy of such a statement and say that this, too, was coincidental, but it is nevertheless certain among historians as to the time frame, the spread of information, and contact between the societies of Europe, Asia, and Africa with regards to their contact with those directly influenced by the Cultures most immediately affected by the verses of the Quran.

. What we are positing is the same structure of a spiritual catalyst as happened to humanity not only from the time of that period, but also that of Christ, and Moses before Him. That it should also affect humanity in this day is not surprising, if in fact, we understand the broader implications of “There shall be a new heaven and a new earth”.

. It is fine to be skeptical. That is normal, but one should view such things without prejudice in consideration of the weight of evidence. What we are suggesting is that the influence of the Word of God extends beyond the observance of rites and rituals, and into more than the arts and literature, which are also most definitely evidences of divine Inspiration, much easier to equate to the origin.

. While one who has yet to recognize the import of not only the volume, but the characteristics of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, who has yet to see them as Divine in Origin, it is natural to hold to skepticism. Most of us who are Baha’is were skeptical as well. For me, it took about ten years of happening across the Faith of Baha’u’llah before it finally began to dawn on me to such a degree that I took it seriously. Since then, the confirmations have been overwhelming and tangible in a variety of ways, but that tends to be somewhat subjective to my own experiences, whether spiritual or practical.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You’re welcome! After reading your posts for a year or so on the Baha’i Forums I felt moved to correct your spelling of resurrection…

You ask about Luke 24:36-45 verses … We have no specific statements I’m aware of so you’ll have to be content with my surmise that it could refer to a visionary experience of the disciples … similar to the one described on the Mount of Transfiguration… Visionary experiences were regarded as real as physical reality…

Showing the wounds revealed both who He was and His martyrdom and sacrifice…

The problem some scholars have is with the verse 40

40 *And as he spoke thus, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
*
Is that it is not in some of the earlier texts…

Luke 24:40 – “When he had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet” – is attested by all extant Greek copies of Luke except for Codex Bezae. It is also absent from seven Old Latin copies, and from both the Sinaitic Syriac and the Curetonian Syriac.

tcg.iphpbb3.com/forum/64774768nx21631/textual-criticism-general-discussion-f18/lk-2437-53-the-doctrinal-impact-of-some-textual-variants-t257.html

There may have been a doctrinal influence inserted…and this is found from the textual criticism.

In the issue you raise about the “1000 years” you may be referring to the statement revealed by Baha’u’llah that in no less than a thousand years a new Manifestation would appear…

The text reads:

Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from
God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a
man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that
He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate
such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt,
forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error,
God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal
mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in
punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise
than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of
God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created
things.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 32)

So it has an obvious meaning and is authentic for us… No one has suggested any evidence of tampering with the text.

Admitting the textual difference, how does that respond to the other portions of the text itself? Why does LUke without any explanation shift into a visionary narrative which is apparently seperate from the previous narration of the death of Christ? Remember, Luke did not have chapters dividing each section like we do and there is no apparent shift in the way Luke is writing. He could have easily described it as it should have happened according to the bahai account, yet he doesn’t. He makes it as confusing as possible for the reader, describing a very literal Jesus appearing to his apostles and explicitely explaining he is not a ghost and then proceeding to eat fish. The narrative i might add continues into the book of acts.

Lets however confess Luke wrote something in a way he should have known better how to write. This still leaves you with the problem that I can use a similar explanation here, about the spiritual reality of the teachings of mirza Hussain as to the number of years meaning a thousand. in fact a thousand years to God is as a day right? Therefore there might have been a manifestation immediately after, or maybe it is just symbolic language to describe a mystical reality. This isn’t really any different from what you do with the gospels (that is any verse you don’t think agrees with bahai, is metaphorical and don’t pretend otherwise). So Mirza doesn’t actually mean what you think he means, rather he means rather a short time by 1000 days. Perhaps only saying that if someone immediately appears, he is an imposter, he doesn’t mean a literal 1000 days. He is allowed to do this as Luke was allowed to do this with his own gospel and as all the authors of sacred scripture you revere were allowed to do.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

SteveVH;11257249:

Steve,
. Historically, for those who have studied the matter deeply, the emergence from the European Dark Ages is unquestionably linked to the advancement of science, mathematics, and art from the Islamic cultures which were, like Europe, essentially “dead in the water” until the effects of the Revelation of Muhammad entered the scene. The effect upon the world transformed civilization as they knew it, relative to a span of many centuries, until again, it eventually plateaued.

. Now one could discount the accuracy of such a statement and say that this, too, was coincidental, but it is nevertheless certain among historians as to the time frame, the spread of information, and contact between the societies of Europe, Asia, and Africa with regards to their contact with those directly influenced by the Cultures most immediately affected by the verses of the Quran.

. What we are positing is the same structure of a spiritual catalyst as happened to humanity not only from the time of that period, but also that of Christ, and Moses before Him. That it should also affect humanity in this day is not surprising, if in fact, we understand the broader implications of “There shall be a new heaven and a new earth”.

. It is fine to be skeptical. That is normal, but one should view such things without prejudice in consideration of the weight of evidence. What we are suggesting is that the influence of the Word of God extends beyond the observance of rites and rituals, and into more than the arts and literature, which are also most definitely evidences of divine Inspiration, much easier to equate to the origin.

. While one who has yet to recognize the import of not only the volume, but the characteristics of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, who has yet to see them as Divine in Origin, it is natural to hold to skepticism. Most of us who are Baha’is were skeptical as well. For me, it took about ten years of happening across the Faith of Baha’u’llah before it finally began to dawn on me to such a degree that I took it seriously. Since then, the confirmations have been overwhelming and tangible in a variety of ways, but that tends to be somewhat subjective to my own experiences, whether spiritual or practical.

I love it when people characterize the middle ages as dark, when it is only dark because of a lack of resources from that time. The Christian east actually kept records you know and had maintained classical learning for the longest time and what contributions islamic scholars added to the field was based on what the ancient greeks and Christian greeks had done. But why if islam was the superior religion did the enlightenment happen in the west as opposed to the east? I suppose it was because Muslims met the limit of their empire and were prevented from capturing europe (thank God). Civilisation did not transform with Muhammad, it transformed with the exodus of greek learning (from greece and constantinople) into the west who actually advanced it to the industrial revolution. ISlamic countries are still in the backwater and do not contribute much to acadamia or science and have still not had an attitude of enlightenment as to the level of the west. Shouldn’t Mirza Hussain’s or even teh bab’s coming made them evolve? They came and preached primarily to muslims and your religion only grows marginally, yet you want to take credit for everything it seems.

 

[daler]

The gospel of Luke specifically Sen, is the most historically minded of the gospels. Luke opens his work with this very intention, to convey the truth of the events which has happened. If you maintain that the gospels as a whole do not portray a literal reality but merely a message, there is a problem when it comes to the narrative of the gospels in general. That is they all more or less start with John (luke feels it necessary to explain how Christ was conceived in great detail along with John the Baptist’s birth) the Baptist and the baptism of Christ or announcing of Christ by John. Then they all end on the resurrection. If the gospels purpose wasn’t to be literal but merely expound the teachings of Christ, why not have composed a simple gospel of Thomas? A collections of words and sayings? The authors felt it necessary to convey the context of when these things were said, and we can’t understand some of Jesus’s parables and the like without the context. We might also note the details the gospel authors mention, the names of places, the way Jesus went between certain places (or Paul in the case of the acts of the apostles) and other details which would not be needed if your thesis was correct. It seems to this layman that the gospels, Luke especially are not describing a religious story, but actual history.

But my main point has not been addressed, for even if you can demonstrate that Luke should be read as a metaphorical work and that nothing (except that which the bahai agree with) happened, I can do the exact same thing with your texts. Insisting that you have misunderstood them all, your Prophet’s son to the council to your scholars. This may seem like a tart point, but you do the exact same thing to the Christian church when you say our beliefs are wrong. Our beliefs which come from the apostles and those whom the apostles taught throughout the ages, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin martyr, Melito of Sardis, Iraneaus, Clement of Rome, Tertulian and etc. If you can simply dismiss our historic tradition of interpreting our own texts which we have read in the original language in a consistent tradition since the beginning, why should you object to me doing the exact same thing when it comes to your prophet apparently and absolutely saying it must be a literal 1000 years?

Ignatian,
. You have stated your point with clarity. This truly helps the dialogue immensely. Although your question is not addressed to me, and I very much hope for and anticipate a much deeper response from Sen and others, what comes to mind are several things.

. My rough understanding of the climate of expectation of the coming of the Messiah, without going into detail, is that there had been certain traditions which He must fulfill to satisfy these criteria. These are found in various cultures and expressed in historical accounts, such as the miraculous or virgin birth stories of other Prophets, the three days of darkness of Egyptian lore, and other such myths, whether true or false.

. Whether one accepts a literal “parting of the sea” by Moses, or three days in the belly of a whale by Jonah, or pairs of all species on Noah’s Ark is in part the necessity of the human mind to believe “something” extraordinary to accept as divine. To answer this “need”, there is a supply abundantly apparent in perhaps every culture, as anthropologists will readily attest, whether it pertain to good and evil or the creation myths.

. Thus, we do need to check our own cultural nest against such biases as are inherent in all humanity as a part of our nature as intelligent beings with imagination and symbolism built into our intellectual faculties. We learn through stretching ideas, hypothesizing, and even passing down to our children such fears as will prevent them from crossing the street or staying out late at night until such time as they understand the wisdom behind them and can monitor and control their own actions.

. As to the 1000 years, Baha’u’llah was very time specific to the Badi Calendar created by the Bab, which incorporates “solar” years, as opposed to lunar years of the Islamic calendar. There is no room for ambiguity on this point. It is most precise, that

. “Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian,
. You have stated your point with clarity. This truly helps the dialogue immensely. Although your question is not addressed to me, and I very much hope for and anticipate a much deeper response from Sen and others, what comes to mind are several things.

. My rough understanding of the climate of expectation of the coming of the Messiah, without going into detail, is that there had been certain traditions which He must fulfill to satisfy these criteria. These are found in various cultures and expressed in historical accounts, such as the miraculous or virgin birth stories of other Prophets, the three days of darkness of Egyptian lore, and other such myths, whether true or false.

. Whether one accepts a literal “parting of the sea” by Moses, or three days in the belly of a whale by Jonah, or pairs of all species on Noah’s Ark is in part the necessity of the human mind to believe “something” extraordinary to accept as divine. To answer this “need”, there is a supply abundantly apparent in perhaps every culture, as anthropologists will readily attest, whether it pertain to good and evil or the creation myths.

. Thus, we do need to check our own cultural nest against such biases as are inherent in all humanity as a part of our nature as intelligent beings with imagination and symbolism built into our intellectual faculties. We learn through stretching ideas, hypothesizing, and even passing down to our children such fears as will prevent them from crossing the street or staying out late at night until such time as they understand the wisdom behind them and can monitor and control their own actions.

. As to the 1000 years, Baha’u’llah was very time specific to the Badi Calendar created by the Bab, which incorporates “solar” years, as opposed to lunar years of the Islamic calendar. There is no room for ambiguity on this point. It is most precise, that

. “Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”

There absolutely room for the spiritual meaning over your preferred “Literal meaning.” You are just like the Jews, Christians and Muslims before you, insisting that things must be literal while refusing to acknowledge the superior spiritual or non literal account. Again what is a thousand years to God? Its like a day. Therefore what Mirza Hussain really conveys here is immediacy. A prophet will not come immediately. After all John Says the Kingdom of Christ would be established for a 1000 years in which he would reign. Mirza Hussain didn’t live that long but he was rruling the kingdom and was the Christ john promised would rule was he no?! He was truely christ which came but he did not reign for a literal one thousand years. Why do you insist on your material meaning?

Do you see my point here?

 

[daler]

daler;11257358:

I love it when people characterize the middle ages as dark, when it is only dark because of a lack of resources from that time. The Christian east actually kept records you know and had maintained classical learning for the longest time and what contributions islamic scholars added to the field was based on what the ancient greeks and Christian greeks had done. But why if islam was the superior religion did the enlightenment happen in the west as opposed to the east? I suppose it was because Muslims met the limit of their empire and were prevented from capturing europe (thank God). Civilization did not transform with Muhammad, it transformed with the exodus of greek learning (from greece and constantinople) into the west who actually advanced it to the industrial revolution. ISlamic countries are still in the backwater and do not contribute much to acadamia or science and have still not had an attitude of enlightenment as to the level of the west. Shouldn’t Mirza Hussain’s or even teh bab’s coming made them evolve? They came and preached primarily to muslims and your religion only grows marginally, yet you want to take credit for everything it seems.

There is no “superior” religion. It is all a single unfolding process. The Greek influence was the result of the association of its earliest philosophers with the Prophets of their time, which similarly acted as a catalyst of learning and the expansion of knowledge.

It is most definitely true that the corrupting forces within Islam caused it to founder and fall short of its potential. This proceeded from the divisive forces immediately upon the death of Muhammad as uttered by the tongue of Omar when he said: “Verily, the Book (Quran) is sufficient unto us.” rejecting the station of Successorship of Ali and creating the schism that became Sunni and Shiah Islam, each of which has run its course.

Despite this, the influence felt permeated the western world, but that is a matter of history which you choose to overlook or are not aware of. Baha’is view the Book of Revelation as prophesying the degradation of the religion of Islam. The “Beast” is a reference to the Ummayyads, who so corrupted the religion that it existed in form only, divested of its true spirit, foretold in Revelation

. “And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.…”

. 3 1/2 days is 1260 years, for 3.5 times 360 = 1260, which is also 42 months, as 42 X 30 = 1260. Either one once again chalks this all up to coincidence, or begins to see the pattern emerging, as 1260 AH is 1844 AD

. Abdul Baha explains this very precisely in Some Answered Questions. If you truly wish to understand the Baha’i position on Islam, as well as the prophecies of Daniel, this would be a good starting point.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/

 

[daler]

There absolutely room for the spiritual meaning over your preferred “Literal meaning.” You are just like the Jews, Christians and Muslims before you, insisting that things must be literal while refusing to acknowledge the superior spiritual or non literal account. Again what is a thousand years to God? Its like a day. Therefore what Mirza Hussain really conveys here is immediacy. A prophet will not come immediately. After all John Says the Kingdom of Christ would be established for a 1000 years in which he would reign. Mirza Hussain didn’t live that long but he was rruling the kingdom and was the Christ john promised would rule was he no?! He was truely christ which came but he did not reign for a literal one thousand years. Why do you insist on your material meaning?

Do you see my point here?

Ignatian,
. While I see your point, there are a variety of interpretations out there amongst not only Christians who view the 1000 year prophecy, but Muslims as well, and perhaps others. To confine our understanding to what the Promised One must do or fulfill is what got the Jews in trouble. To assume that He must physically live for a thousand years makes Him non-human. Rather, His reign is from above the world of elements and mortality. Even as we believe that Jesus still lives and operates in the hearts of men and rules with authority, so it is with God’s Kingdom, which Baha’is believe is being set up in the Administrative Order all around the world, with thousands of Local Spiritual Assemblies, hundreds of National Spiritual Assemblies, and one Universal House of Justice located on Mt Carmel, the “Mountain of the Lord”, unto which Isaiah said all nations would flow, as well as Micah.

“Micah 4
. " In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple
will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
4 Everyone will sit under their own vine
and under their own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the Lord Almighty has spoken.
5 All the nations may walk
in the name of their gods,
but we will walk in the name of the Lord
our God for ever and ever…"

 

[Servant19]

There absolutely room for the spiritual meaning over your preferred “Literal meaning.” You are just like the Jews, Christians and Muslims before you, insisting that things must be literal while refusing to acknowledge the superior spiritual or non literal account. Again what is a thousand years to God? Its like a day. Therefore what Mirza Hussain really conveys here is immediacy. A prophet will not come immediately. After all John Says the Kingdom of Christ would be established for a 1000 years in which he would reign. Mirza Hussain didn’t live that long but he was rruling the kingdom and was the Christ john promised would rule was he no?! He was truely christ which came but he did not reign for a literal one thousand years. Why do you insist on your material meaning?

Do you see my point here?

Anyone wishing to interpret Bahaullahs Verses in a different manner than is commonly seen are entitled to do so.

Ignatian, go ahead, give us your symbolic meaning of the thousand year verse…

What happens after a single day after Bahaullah revealed His Mission?
How does your symbolic interpretation of this reflect on the 500,000 year Bahai Cycle?