Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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fathercome said:
Dear Friend Steve,

One thing that distinguishes the faith of Baha’u’llah from past religions is that Baha’u’llah Himself allowed differences of beliefs regarding His own station. He said that the view you see in most Baha’i publications is equally acceptable as the view that I am spelling out here. This is stated by Baha’u’llah in a couple of His untranslated Persian/Arabic Tablets.

The faith of Baha’u’llah really considers the concept of Unity as supreme, even above our differing views of the divinity of Baha’u’llah.
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Yes, this is a trait that has become very apparent. In the Catholic faith we hold Truth as supreme, even over unity, the thought being that there is no point in being unified in error.
 
SteveVH said:
Yes, this is a trait that has become very apparent. In the Catholic faith we hold Truth as supreme, even over unity, the thought being that there is no point in being unified in error.
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Dear Friend Steve,

Yes, this is a difference. Abdu’l-Baha insists that unity is greater than truth, because if united, the truth will come out and the wrong will correct itself.

Best to you in your journey toward God !

In an untranslated Tablet, Baha’u’llah states that Jesus** rose from the dead **to make mention of Him !
 
fathercome said:
In an untranslated Tablet, Baha’u’llah states that Jesus** rose from the dead **to make mention of Him !
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I believe, however, that this is understood by Baha’is as a “spiritual” rather than a “bodily” resurrection.
 
fathercome said:
Dear Friend Steve,

Yes, this is a difference. Abdu’l-Baha insists that unity is greater than truth, because if united, the truth will come out and the wrong will correct itself.
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If not in truth, then in what sense can a people become united? Can I be united with one who denies the Trinity? Can you be united with one who denies Baha’u’llah? It seems to me that the Baha’i faith is grounded more in idealism than in objective truth.
 
Dear Steve,

Here is a provisional translation of one Tablet I am referring to:

The Words of Bahá’u’lláh, exalted be His Glory:

This is the Day in which the Spirit Jesus Christ] proclaimeth from the zenith of heaven: “O Concourse of creation! Verily, the Sovereign of the world hath appeared and all that which was in the Kingdom of my Lord is fulfilled. Verily, the One Who was the beloved of my [Jesus] heart, the One who aided me [Jesus] in my Cause, hath come. Follow Him *, and do not be of those who turn away. This is the Day in which all veils have been lifted and thy Lord, the Almighty, the Most Bountiful hath made His appearance. Because of His Advent, all that which I [Jesus] promised thee hath been perfected and fulfilled. Haste ye then to His resplendent, most luminous Beauty!..

[Jesus continues to speak about Baha’u’llah as follows:]

“O Priests! Tell the servants that they should not ring the bells any longer except in His Name the Gracious, the most Transcendent. This is the Day in which every thirsty one hath attained unto the river of everlasting life, and every eager one can behold the Beauty of the All Merciful. In this Day, every humbled one can attain dignity and every poor one wealth. The ailing can obtain healing, the deaf can hear His melody, and the blind have obtained sight. Render thanks unto God and be not of those who join partners with Him. The kingdom of God circleth around Him and it is because of His Love that I adorned the cross with my body. Verily, *I rose from the dead ** to complete my mention of His Name amongst men. O people of the Gospel! Do not make mention of Me (Jesus Christ) when you have turned away from my Father, the All- Glorious. It is His love that transformed the fire to be a light for Abraham. He that tarrieth after Him is in manifest error. Haste ye, therefore, to the river of mercy, flowing from the presence of your Lord, the All-Merciful. Beware lest ye deprive yourself of this gushing river. Verily, We have trained you for this Day. Peruse ye my words so that ye may obtain what my intention was in making mention of Him. Truly, I did not come but for His cause and I did not appear but to give the glad tidings of the advent of the Kingdom of God.” Thus doth command you the Spirit [Jesus Christ], Who sacrificed His spirit to give life to the world and so that He may manifest what the sublime Purpose is. He, verily, hath appeared in truth. Follow Him then, and adhere not to what ye possess of the accounts of ancient times.
 
fathercome said:
Dear Friend Steve,

Yes, this is a difference. Abdu’l-Baha insists that unity is greater than truth, because if united, the truth will come out and the wrong will correct itself.

Best to you in your journey toward God !

In an untranslated Tablet, Baha’u’llah states that Jesus** rose from the dead **to make mention of Him !
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Problems with your post fathercome… You omit that what Abdul-Baha talked about was conflict between the friends not the issue of truth itself.

Regarding truth:
  1. The members thereof [1] must take counsel together in such wise that no occasion for ill-feeling or discord may arise. This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed. The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions. If after discussion, a decision be carried unanimously well and good; but if, the Lord forbid, differences of opinion should arise, a majority of voices must prevail.

    (Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 87)
fathercome you reference “untranslated tablets” without any sources given …“Provisional translations” mean they have not been thoroughly approved… Again provide your sources! Whose translations?

"This is the Day in which the Spirit proclaimeth from the zenith of heaven" and you fathercome have inserted “Jesus Christ”. Stop playing games.

Your provisional translation appears to be…

bahai-library.com/provisionals_nuzzila_yawm_ridvan
 
daler said:
Aragonjohn,
. Sometimes, I honestly think that God means and intends for us to wrestle with His “Identity”, to always be “reaching”, and never be complacent, whether intellectually or emotionally.
. We can never get to the point where we say: “I understand God”, because that would be like putting Him in our pocket and walking away, if you know what I mean.
. So we try on these hats of description, in our attempt to comprehend what on one level will always be incomprehensible to us.

. As much as we “can” comprehend (and even that is limited), is revealed in the Person of His Manifestation (in Baha’i terminology), Who is His Representative on earth, i.e. the Word, through Whom the world was created.
. It took me a long time to get that last aspect through my rational brain, as I could not conceive of the how that concept worked, but when I began to comprehend that the Manifestation of God is infinitely more than human, it made started making sense to me.

. Then, I started to view the Spiritual “Sun” as brighter and greater than the physical “sun”, without which the earth would be cold and barren (physically), and also the idea of eternity started becoming logical once the “physical” side of reality was seen as a temporary condition and understood as such. Does this make sense?
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Thank You

At least somewhat clear and understandible to me one is most of the fragments. of the

fragments I understand is God’s love, magnificence, and beauty being brighter than the sun

and stars combined plus human imaginations together. But the rest is a bit complicated and

could be simplified if

possible.

God bless
 
arthra said:
fathercome you reference “untranslated tablets” without any sources given …“Provisional translations” mean they have not been thoroughly approved… Again provide your sources! Whose translations?
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Dear Artha,

The Tablet I am referring to is called the “Tablet to Jamal-i Burujirdi”. He says that both views to which I refer are correct and if the Baha’is disagree and argue with one another over His Divinity, the disunity will strike both parties down and both will become wrong by His command.
 
SteveVH said:
Then we have a clear difference in our beliefs concerning the nature of Jesus as we believe that Jesus is not just a reflection, but actually the one, true God who became flesh and walked among us.

Cannot an unlimited God become flesh if that is what he chooses to do? This does not mean that he must give up his divinity in order to do so. Jesus humbled himself to become man. By becoming man he voluntarily took on the limitations of human flesh and mortality; indeed, he suffered and died. At the same time he commanded the wind and sea, healed the lame, gave sight to the blind. And then, he rose from the dead, with his glorified human body which would never again be subject to death and corruption.

Nor was Jesus limited. He subjected himself. He very well could have turned the Roman soldiers to stone and walked away. Instead he voluntarily gave his own life so that we might have life.

We would agree that any human attempt at defining or describing God can only diminish his true essence; it always falls short.

I would agree. As far as understanding the Trinity one must understand philosophical terms such as “Person”, “Being”, “Substance”, “Divinity”, “Consubstantial”, etc… This information is widely available and even a few minutes of research would yield mountains of information.

Hey, it was just revealed to me. Give me a little time, after all even Jesus started with only twelve, right? 🙂
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👍
 
So as not to be a cause of disunity and thereby rightly deserve the disappointment of Baha’u’llah, this is my last post here. The forum is yours.

Glory be unto thee one and all
 
fathercome said:
Dear Artha,

The Tablet I am referring to is called the “Tablet to Jamal-i Burujirdi”. He says that both views to which I refer are correct and if the Baha’is disagree and argue with one another over His Divinity, the disunity will strike both parties down and both will become wrong by His command.
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Provisionally translated tablets are interesting but not necessarily authoritative…next time provide your sources…
 
fathercome said:
So as not to be a cause of disunity and thereby rightly deserve the disappointment of Baha’u’llah, this is my last post here. The forum is yours.

Glory be unto thee one and all
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One of the disadvantages of holding unity above truth. I really wish you would stay around. Just so you know, we have plenty of Catholics who disagree with one another. Argumentation is a noble pursuit if done with the right intentions and with charity.
 
arthra said:
fathercome…

What is your source?:confused:
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Dear Catholic and Baha’i friends,

I am very very sorry… please ignore me, ignore my messages… I do not intend to be a cause of agitation and difficulty…
 
fathercome said:
Dear Friend and Fellow-Journeyman toward the One Goal,

Baha’u’llah was asked this questions, and He answered that He was actually speaking to Himself.
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Servant19 said:
Bahaullah is not speaking to Himself.
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http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tom-cruise-a-few-good-men.gif

Whom should I believe? :confused:

NB: I will not make a big deal about 2 different Bahais offering completely contradictory posts, for there are of course numerous examples of Catholics professing contradictory doctrines. When this occurs in Catholicism, all we must do is appeal to the sure norm of the faith, our Catechism, and the contradiction is resolved. One of those Catholics is wrong. The other is right.

What do we do when 2 Bahais offer contradictory teachings?
 
fathercome said:
So as not to be a cause of disunity and thereby rightly deserve the disappointment of Baha’u’llah, this is my last post here. The forum is yours.

Glory be unto thee one and all
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This, too, is unfortunate. If you are not able to dialogue with us here, how are you to grow? How are we to find unity and common ground? :confused:
 
PRmerger said:
Whom should I believe? :confused:

NB: I will not make a big deal about 2 different Bahais offering completely contradictory posts, for there are of course numerous examples of Catholics professing contradictory doctrines. When this occurs in Catholicism, all we must do is appeal to the sure norm of the faith, our Catechism, and the contradiction is resolved. One of those Catholics is wrong. The other is right.

What do we do when 2 Bahais offer contradictory teachings?
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I’m not sure about fathercome … He almost seems to me to be acting as a “foil”.

but among Baha’is if there are issues we turn to the Writings themselves…

Provisionally translated materials are usually not referred to… only in scholarly circles and may be of interest but authoritative Writings means they have gone through a process and are accepted.

Beyond that Baha’s turn for guidance to our Institutions.

🙂
 
It was proposed earlier that the bahai respect or somehow regaurd the early fathers as not teaching falsehood or that modern Christians do not teach falsehood. This was in responce to my question, “when did the early christians corrupt the Christian faith.” I asked is Jesus God and got a non answer despite knowing the bahai doctrine clearly. No more games please. Bahai deny Jesus as God, do not twist my words or say things so as to appear to agree with us, do not attempt to say “we believe he is divine!” Say with the ferocity of any muslim (Or Jew for that matter) that Jesus is not God so that we can know our mutual positions. Now I quoted the early the fathers in support of the idea that it must have been from the very begining or at least immediately after John or during the apostle’s lives that this belief (of Christ being God) had become very much the standard of the orthodox church from Rome, to Lyon, to Antioch and Syria.

Will the bahai agree with this assessment? Or will you attempt yet again to say we don’t dissagree, yet in private emails tell me I am wrong and all of Christendom is wrong.
 
PRmerger said:
This is unfortunate, then.

According to your prophet, you would unite yourself with this man, and the vile teachings he professes would not be an issue?

http://beyondthecopy.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/fred_phelps.jpg

**Unity with him would be paramount? **:eek:
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Uh, no.

Baha’u’llah revealed the Word of God for this age. Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were authorized to interpret that Word should questions arise. Baha’is are allowed, on any point not expressly stated or interpreted, to have their own thoughts. What is not allowed, by any individual Baha’i, is to take those personal understandings, gather others around, and create a breach or division in belief. This teaching has prevented the Faith from splintering into thousands of divisions and maintained its worldwide unity.

Authority in the Faith is vested in the institutions that Baha’u’llah Himself created and never in any one individual Baha’i.
 
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