Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[IgnatianPhilo]

Uh, no.

Baha’u’llah revealed the Word of God for this age. Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were authorized to interpret that Word should questions arise. Baha’is are allowed, on any point not expressly stated or interpreted, to have their own thoughts. What is not allowed, by any individual Baha’i, is to take those personal understandings, gather others around, and create a breach or division in belief. This teaching has prevented the Faith from splintering into thousands of divisions and maintained its worldwide unity.

Authority in the Faith is vested in the institutions that Baha’u’llah Himself created and never in any one individual Baha’i.

Then why do bahai give contradictory answers?

 

[PRmerger]

Uh, no.

Baha’u’llah revealed the Word of God for this age. Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were authorized to interpret that Word should questions arise. Baha’is are allowed, on any point not expressly stated or interpreted, to have their own thoughts. What is not allowed, by any individual Baha’i, is to take those personal understandings, gather others around, and create a breach or division in belief. This teaching has prevented the Faith from splintering into thousands of divisions and maintained its worldwide unity.

I don’t understand. Truth is paramount to Bahais? Or unity?

Because, as I have shown above, sometimes truth and unity are divergent and cannot be reconciled.

In the case of Bahais, when truth and unity are disparate, which are you supposed to choose: truth or unity?

 

[fathercome]

Dear Artha, Nick,

You are absolutely right about unity, but I am saddened that you are in doubt about my intentions. Regarding the disagreements over the Divinity of Baha’u’llah (was He speaking to Himself?), see Baha’u’llah’s Tablet to Jamal-i Burujirdi, also see book “Eminent Baha’is” by Balyuzi, as well as Taherzadeh in “Revelation of Baha’u’llah”:

“It was perhaps owing to this inadequacy that, at one stage during the ministry of Bahá’u’lláh, there were two major schools of thought among the believers concerning His station. Some believed Him to be the Supreme Manifestation of God, while others went further than this. When Bahá’u’lláh was asked about His station, He confirmed that as long as individuals were sincere in their beliefs, both views were right, but if they argued among themselves or tried to convert each other, both were wrong. This indicates that man because of his finite mind will never be able to understand the true station of the Manifestation of God. The criteria are sincerity and faith. Knowing man’s limitations, God accepts from him what he is able to achieve.” Adib Taherzadeh, Revelation of Bahaullah

As you both said, I said the same thing, that in the Baha’i Faith, Unity around the institutions of the Faith created by Baha’u’llah Himself, is what keeps the Baha’is united and maintains our bond and oneness - otherwise if Baha’is cannot be united themselves, how can we think we are capable of uniting the world?

 

[Nick44]

Then why do bahai give contradictory answers?

While the answers from the Writings and the authorized interpretations are not contradictory, any individuals understanding may be. Abdu’l-Baha said we advance in the Faith, “Little by little, day by day.” We’re always happy to share our understandings but the Writings/Interpretations are always the final say.

 

[fathercome]

I don’t understand. Truth is paramount to Bahais? Or unity?

Because, as I have shown above, sometimes truth and unity are divergent and cannot be reconciled.

In the case of Bahais, when truth and unity are disparate, which are you supposed to choose: truth or unity?

Dear PRmerger,

I think we are supposed to choose unity. See the quote I pasted from Adib Taherzadeh’s Revelation of Baha’u’llah if you are disinclined to read “provisional” translations of Baha’u’llah’s own Writings.

 

[daler]

Dear Artha, Nick,

You are absolutely right about unity, but I am saddened that you are in doubt about my intentions. Regarding the disagreements over the Divinity of Baha’u’llah (was He speaking to Himself?), see Baha’u’llah’s Tablet to Jamal-i Burujirdi, also see book “Eminent Baha’is” by Balyuzi, as well as Taherzadeh in “Revelation of Baha’u’llah”:

"It was perhaps owing to this inadequacy that, at one stage during the ministry of Bahá’u’lláh, there were two major schools of thought among the believers concerning His station. Some believed Him to be the Supreme Manifestation of God, while others went further than this. When Bahá’u’lláh was asked about His station, He confirmed that as long as individuals were sincere in their beliefs, both views were right, but if they argued among themselves or tried to convert each other, both were wrong. This indicates that man because of his finite mind will never be able to understand the true station of the Manifestation of God. The criteria are sincerity and faith. Knowing man’s limitations, God accepts from him what he is able to achieve." Adib Taherzadeh, Revelation of Bahaullah

As you both said, I said the same thing, that in the Baha’i Faith, Unity around the institutions of the Faith created by Baha’u’llah Himself, is what keeps the Baha’is united and maintains our bond and oneness - otherwise if Baha’is cannot be united themselves, how can we think we are capable of uniting the world?

fathercome,
. This is very good and helpful, for we all come with partial understanding, sometimes disagreeing for awhile as we work on raising our level of understanding this incredible Revelation from God, which is the New Heaven, and as the New Earth of our understanding receives this heavenly outpouring, we sometimes struggle with what to do with all of this Holy Water gushing forth from the Tablets of Baha’u’llah.
. Then of course we also attempt to comprehend Him in His glorious station as the One Whom Jesus referred to as the Sprit of Truth Who would bring us all truth which He could not bring us because of our very limited capacity at Jesus’ time. He laid the foundation upon which this Heavenly Mansion is now being constructed according to the blueprints God has revealed through the Pen of Baha’u’llah.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” Baha’u’llah

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PRmerger,

I think we are supposed to choose unity. See the quote I pasted from Adib Taherzadeh’s Revelation of Baha’u’llah if you are disinclined to read “provisional” translations of Baha’u’llah’s own Writings.

Then you would be united with Reverend Fred Phelps, at the expense of truth? You would not require that he change his vile beliefs?

 

[daler]

I don’t understand. Truth is paramount to Bahais? Or unity?

Because, as I have shown above, sometimes truth and unity are divergent and cannot be reconciled.

In the case of Bahais, when truth and unity are disparate, which are you supposed to choose: truth or unity?

PR,
. This is a very good question and one deserving of the utmost consideration. For Baha’is, we trust that God has revealed all truth in His Writings, which are vast, in the hundreds of volumes, only a portion of which have been translated into English.

. As we ascend this mountain of knowledge, we stumble along the paths of our understanding, confident that the truth will become known to us when our unity is upheld, for division is the cause of spiritual problems and the destroyer of the foundation of the Kingdom.

. Hence, as we bring our various understandings, each from his or her perspectives, sometimes we view this mountain from different approaches. One sees this tree or that rock, this piece or that ledge, and holds to it. It is like the story of the blind men and the elephant, but as Baha’is, we know there is one elephant.

. We are not afraid to discuss our various perceptions and understandings openly or in private, and we all refer back to the Writings of the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, always deferring the Them above ourselves. Then we consult and continue up the mountain.

. God bless you, sister

 

[daler]

Then you would be united with Reverend Fred Phelps, at the expense of truth? You would not require that he change his vile beliefs?

Not hardly. We are not united with that which is not in keeping with the Spirit of Truth, yet we are tolerant of others to express their beliefs. We believe in the independent investigation of truth.

When certain people’s behavior is too vile, we avoid them:

, " Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly." Baha’u’llah

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

While the answers from the Writings and the authorized interpretations are not contradictory, any individuals understanding may be. Abdu’l-Baha said we advance in the Faith, “Little by little, day by day.” We’re always happy to share our understandings but the Writings/Interpretations are always the final say.

This is just my opinion but it seems there is a lack of understanding of their own religion on the part of bahai. For instance is Jesus an eternal spirit? Or a created creature? Bahai have given both answers to me on such an important issue.

 

[SteveVH]

…for division is the cause of spiritual problems and the destroyer of the foundation of the Kingdom.

Division is a consequence, not a cause in and of itself. Division occurs due to various interpretations and disagreements concerning truth. Unity cannot truly exist apart from the truth. A unity based upon error or falsehood is not unity at all. It is simply an illusion.

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

How can you believe in all religions, not every religion have similar beliefs or morality?

Jesus isn’t like Mohamed, Buddha wasn’t like Abraham or Moses, if I invent a theistic religion some day, would I be called a messenger of God?

Is It a theistic and a non theistic religion at the same time?

You believe in God, what do you mean by God?
It isn’t obvious like in theistic religions, it isn’t a dogmatic religion with certain rules, is it a spiritual philosophy like Buddhism, sufism, deism?

Religions look more like two categories:
Spiritual ones and dogmatic ones, was the creation of Bahai religion a rise over dogmatic Islam?

 

[PRmerger]

Not hardly. We are not united with that which is not in keeping with the Spirit of Truth, yet we are tolerant of others to express their beliefs. We believe in the independent investigation of truth.

Amen!

So truth is paramount to you as a Bahai.

But unity is paramount to fathercome as a Bahai.

Disparate and irreconcilable positions.

What am I to believe is the Bahai position? And where can I find this in writing?

 

[daler]

Thank You

At least somewhat clear and understandible to me one is most of the fragments. of the
fragments I understand is God’s love, magnificence, and beauty being brighter than the sun and stars combined plus human imaginations together. But the rest is a bit complicated and
could be simplified if possible.

God bless

aragon,
. Your point is very well taken that the most important thing about the teachings of God is to maintain love and unity.

. “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst … By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Jesus

. While we are given a mind and intellectual capacity to comprehend the knowledge of God as brought to us by His Prophets and Messengers, which is very important to our spiritual development and growth, if we forget the message of loving all humanity without prejudice, whether racial, national, class, or religious prejudices, then of what use is all that knowledge?

 

[fathercome]

Amen!

So truth is paramount to you as a Bahai.

But unity is paramount to fathercome as a Bahai.

Disparate and irreconcilable positions.

What am I to believe is the Bahai position? And where can I find this in writing?

Dear PRmerger,

Let’s consider what I am saying, really. What I am saying is only based on Baha’u’llah’s own statement! He Himself said that both positions are true, and my opinion, to which some Baha’is here expressed disagreement over, is based on my reading of the writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice — and my deduction is the second “school of thought” that Baha’u’llah refers to.

So I take unity over truth in the sense that this is what Baha’u’llah Himself instructed. The casual reader may want to scroll back to the quote from Adib Taherzadeh who paraphrases Baha’u’llah Tablet to Jamal-i Burujirdi.

In other words, the disagreement over the Divinity of Baha’u’llah is built into the Baha’i Theology by Baha’u’llah himself. It is a Most unifying Teaching of Baha’u’llah.

 

[SteveVH]

aragon,
. Your point is very well taken that the most important thing about the teachings of God is to maintain love and unity.

Unity of what, daler? If you don’t have unity of belief then what is the unity of which you speak. What is the Baha’i definition of “unity”?

 

[daler]

Amen!

So truth is paramount to you as a Bahai.

But unity is paramount to fathercome as a Bahai.

Disparate and irreconcilable positions.

What am I to believe is the Bahai position? And where can I find this in writing?

. "First, you must become united and agreed among yourselves. You must be exceedingly kind and loving toward each other, willing to forfeit life in the pathway of another’s happiness. You must be ready to sacrifice your possessions in another’s behalf. The rich among you must show compassion toward the poor, and the well-to-do must look after those in distress. In Persia the friends offer their lives for each other, striving to assist and advance the interests and welfare of all the rest. They live in a perfect state of unity and agreement.

. Like the Persian friends you must be perfectly agreed and united to the extent and limit of sacrificing life. Your utmost desire must be to confer happiness upon each other. Each one must be the servant of the others, thoughtful of their comfort and welfare. In the path of God one must forget himself entirely. He must not consider his own pleasure but seek the pleasure of others. He must not desire glory nor gifts of bounty for himself but seek these gifts and blessings for his brothers and sisters. It is my hope that you may become like this, that you may attain to the supreme bestowal and be imbued with such spiritual qualities as to forget yourselves entirely and with heart and soul offer yourselves as sacrifices for the Blessed Perfection. You should have neither will nor desire of your own but seek everything for the beloved of God and live together in complete love and fellowship. May the favors of Bahá’u’lláh surround you from all directions. This is the greatest bestowal and supreme bounty. These are the infinite favors of God." Abdul Baha

 

[daler]

Unity of what, daler? If you don’t have unity of belief then what is the unity of which you speak. What is the Baha’i definition of “unity”?

Steve,
. Baha’u’llah told us to be as the fingers of one hand. The fingers do not fight each other, and all the souls created by God should likewise become united, even as the body of Christ, of which He spoke.

. Now the challenge in this day is to bring about the unity of the entire human race, is it not? This is the work of the One Shepherd, to bring about the One Fold, and for this to happen, there must first be established unity in the hearts of men.

. "Endeavor ye as much as possible that differences may not arise in the affairs; let not every insignificant matter become the cause of disagreement. If such conditions exist the end will be complete dispersion. The believers and maid-servants of the Merciful must all consider how to produce harmony, so that the unity of the human world may be realized, not that every wholly unimportant subject become conducive to differences of opinion.

. It is my hope that the friends and the maid-servants of America become united on all subjects and not disagree at all. If they agree upon a subject, even though it be wrong, it is better than to disagree and be in the right, for this difference will produce the demolition of the divine foundation. Though one of the parties may be in the right and they disagree that will be the cause of a thousand wrongs, but if they agree and both parties are in the wrong, as it is in unity the truth will be revealed and the wrong made right."

Abdul Baha

 

[SteveVH]

. "First, you must become united and agreed among yourselves.

Daler, while I am cognizant of the fact that there very well may be translational challenges from Arabic to English, once again, in what way are you to become united?

 

[fathercome]

Daler, while I am cognizant of the fact that there very well may be translational challenges from Arabic to English, once again, in what way are you to become united?

Perhaps I can quote Baha’u’llah directly in provisional translation – one may want to simply glance at the bold text of Baha’u’llah:

"If however, the supporters of these two positions should contend and quarrel with one another in their exposition of the two perspectives, both groups are, and hath ever been, rejected. This inasmuch as the **purpose **of the spiritual understanding and the exposition of the highest levels of the elucidation of the teachings is to attract the hearts, cause fellowship between souls, and further the propagation of the Cause of God. As a result of contention and disputation amongst those who hold to these two positions, there hath been and will ever result the dissipation of the Cause of God and both groups shall return to the hellfire despite the fact that they, in their own estimation, soar in the highest horizon of spiritual understanding.

O Jamál! The Unseen, the Inaccessible, the Transcendent One lamenteth and weepeth for He inhaleth not the fragrance of that which, in this Day, is beloved (of God). The community of the True One should manifest the virtues of God for He is the Concealer of faults, the One Who Knoweth things hidden, the Forgiver of sins.

This is the Day whereon the Ocean of Gods mercy hath been manifested unto men, the Day in which the Day-Star of His loving-kindness shall shed its radiance upon them, the Day in which the clouds of His bountiful favour have overshadowed the whole of mankind. Now is the time to cheer and refresh the down-cast through the invigorating breeze of love and fellowship, and the living waters of friendliness and charity.

They who are the beloved of God, in whatever place they gather and whomsoever they may meet must evince, in their attitude towards God, and in the manner of their celebration of His praise and glory such humility and submissiveness that every atom of the dust beneath their feet may attest the depth of their devotion. The conversation carried by these holy souls should be informed with such power that these same atoms of the dust will be thrilled by its influence. They should conduct themselves in such manner that the earth upon which they tread may never be allowed to address them such words as these: ‘I am to be preferred above you. For witness, how patient I am in bearing the burden which the husbandman layeth upon me. I am the instrument that continually imparteth unto all beings the blessings with which He Who is the Source of all grace hath entrusted me. Notwithstanding the honour conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth — a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation — behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men.’

…Wherefore, show forebearance and benevolence and love to one another. Should any one among you be incapable of grasping a certain truth, or be striving to comprehend it, show forth when conversing with him a spirit of extreme kindliness and goodwill. Help him to see and recognize the truth without esteeming yourself to be, in the least, superior to him or to be possessed of greater endowments

The whole duty of man in this Day is to attain that share of the flood of grace which God poureth forth for him. Let none, therefore, consider the largeness or smallness of the receptacle. The portion of some might lie in the palm of a man’s hand, the portion of others might fill a cup, and of others even a gallon-measure.

Every eye in this Day should seek what will best promote the Cause of God. He Who is the Eternal Truth, beareth Me witness! Nothing whatever can, in this Day, inflict a greater harm upon this cause than dissension, and strife, contention, estrangement and apathy, among the loved ones of God. Flee them, through the power of God and His sovereign aid, and strive ye to knit together the hearts of men in His Name, the Unifier, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that ye may taste the savour of such deeds as are performed in His path, and partake of the sweetness of such humility and submissiveness as are shown for His sake. Forget your own selves, and turn your eyes towards your neighbour. Bend your energies to whatever may foster the education of men. Nothing is, or can ever be, hidden from God. If ye follow in His way, His incalculable and imperishable blessings will be showered upon you. This is the luminous Tablet, whose verses have streamed from the moving Pen of Him Who is the Lord of all worlds. Ponder it in your hearts, and be ye of them that observe its precepts.

Before those souls who, at the behest of God in this Day are engaged in the propagation of the Cause and who have received the special loving providence of God, all should manifest due humility. This submissiveness before them [teachers of the Bahá’í Faith] is, in truth, referable to God for it originateth from His command and returneth, therefore, unto Him. Such as have received this special bounty [of teaching] should demonstrate and manifest amongst themselves the utmost unity. Apart from and beyond this matter the degrees of understanding and knowledge amongst them [the teachers] is perfectly evident unto God and shall always remain so. Thus have We ignited the lamp of Utterance amongst mankind. Blessed be the one who seeketh illumination from its niche and is enlightened by its radiance. That one is of those who have attained and of those who have been honoured. Praise be to God the Lord of all the worlds."