Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[tonyfish58]

Dear PRmerger,

I think we are supposed to choose unity. See the quote I pasted from Adib Taherzadeh’s Revelation of Baha’u’llah if you are disinclined to read “provisional” translations of Baha’u’llah’s own Writings.

I think this was a good lesson for us all When we make a comment re the Faith…

To me it is important to point out what is a quote from the writings, what is a quote from someone writing about the writings and what is our opinion of the writings. Of course we all fall short of doing that at times and confusion arises.

Just remember Provisional Translations can change. So they are great as a point of interest, but we can not post them as “This is What Baha’u’llah Said/Meant”.

“Say: No man can attain his true station except through his justice. No power can exist except through unity. No welfare and no well-being can be attained except through consultation”.

(Baha’u’llah - From a Tablet - translated from the Arabic) info.bahai.org/article-1-3-6-6.html

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

Daler, while I am cognizant of the fact that there very well may be translational challenges from Arabic to English, once again, in what way are you to become united?

Steve,
. While I would defer to the post of fathercome above (810) as the best answer to your question, what also comes to mind is that of the levels of partial unity throughout history which were the result of the recognition of God’s Prophets.

. At the time of Abraham, those who recognized Him were gathered into a small spiritual community. Then, when Moses appeared, that community grew further. Certainly at the time of Jesus, what is referred to as “the body of Christ” testified to the efficacy of His teachings. Among the warring tribes of Arabia, Muhammad’s message prevailed in establishing a higher order of identity among these people.

. In this day, through the recognition of Baha’u’llah as the Promised One of all religions, the followers of all of these different paths come together, are united in the One Fold of which He is the Shepherd Who is gathering the flocks and herds of humanity into a single unit which transcends racial, national, and religious division.

. “The first utterance of Him Who is the All-Wise is this: O children of dust! Turn your faces from the darkness of estrangement to the effulgent light of the daystar of unity. This is that which above all else will benefit the peoples of the earth. O friend! Upon the tree of utterance there hath never been, nor shall there ever be, a fairer leaf, and beneath the ocean of knowledge no pearl more wondrous can ever be found.”

. “The earth is but one country, mankind its citizens.” . Baha’u’llah

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Baha’u’llah told us to be as the fingers of one hand. The fingers do not fight each other, and all the souls created by God should likewise become united, even as the body of Christ, of which He spoke.

As Catholics we are united by one faith, one hope, one Lord, one Baptism. We are one body with Christ as our head.

In what are the Baha’i united?

Like “division”, unity is a consequence, not a cause. A consequence of one belief, one faith, one Lord and God. Jesus’ entire purpose is to unite man with God. He accomplished this in his very nature as both God and man and invites us to be one as he and the Father are one. This is accomplished through the Christian sacraments, most especially in the Eucharist.

Now the challenge in this day is to bring about the unity of the entire human race, is it not?

No. The challenge is to bring Truth to the entire human race. We will be united to the extent that each individual accepts that truth and forms his life according to it.

 

[Porknpie]

No. The challenge is to bring Truth to the entire human race. We will be united to the extent that each individual accepts that truth and forms his life according to it.

:yup:

The truth is everything. We only have to abide in Jesus.

John 8:31-32 … So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

PnP

 

[fathercome]

Dear Steve,

Not sure how we mis-communicated, so I apologize for that.

Certainly 2000 years of Catholic history has demonstrated the beauty and power of Jesus’s purpose to unite man with God. I’m not here to challenge Catholic belief, I am on a Catholic website after all, but I was simply presenting, without attempting to proselytize, the claims and proclamations of Baha’u’llah as they may be of interest to Christians for one or another reason, if simply only to fortify themselves against “false and deviant” teachings of a non-Catholic faith.

Not sure how else to respond to your comment without repeating myself. One thing I didn’t understand in your response is that you once again asked what the Baha’i unity is, or what is the Baha’i unity centered around. What do you mean by this question - or why did you ask this question again? I had already responded to it. Many thanks.

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PRmerger,

Let’s consider what I am saying, really. What I am saying is only based on Baha’u’llah’s own statement! He Himself said that both positions are true, and my opinion, to which some Baha’is here expressed disagreement over, is based on my reading of the writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice — and my deduction is the second “school of thought” that Baha’u’llah refers to.

So I take unity over truth in the sense that this is what Baha’u’llah Himself instructed.

I understand what you are saying, fathercome.

The question this prompts, then, is this: would you then invite the Reverend Fred Phelps to come to your home and teach his viewpoint to your children, in the name of unity?

 

[daler]

As Catholics we are united by one faith, one hope, one Lord, one Baptism. We are one body with Christ as our head.

In what are the Baha’i united?

Like “division”, unity is a consequence, not a cause. A consequence of one belief, one faith, one Lord and God. Jesus’ entire purpose is to unite man with God. He accomplished this in his very nature as both God and man and invites us to be one as he and the Father are one. This is accomplished through the Christian sacraments, most especially in the Eucharist.

No. The challenge is to bring Truth to the entire human race. We will be united to the extent that each individual accepts that truth and forms his life according to it.

Steve,
. I can very much appreciate your perspective as a Catholic, united with so many millions of others of like beliefs. That is a wonderful thing, to be united on such a level. The difficulty then is in uniting humanity in this day when there are millions of others united in their various systems of belief, and very much confident that God has chosen them to be blessed above all others, whether as followers of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or Krsna, etc.

. Each of these great Faiths has been promised something similar, has it not? That all have been told that at some future time, distant from their inception, a Great Figure would appear to usher in an age of peace and unity. Whether called the One Fold and One Shepherd, the Sacred Hoop of All Nations, it is evident that it is the same concept.

. Baha’is are united in the belief that the Promised One of all religions is the same Figure, and that He has appeared, in fulfillment of the prophecies of all these historical religions which converge in time and place. Those of us who recognize Baha’u’llah have a great challenge in teaching others that this time has arrived and that we are in the midst of the unfoldment of God’s Divine Plan.

. That great and terrible Day of God has its consequences for all of mankind, and has been described by Shoghi Effendi:

. "A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.

. “The time for the destruction of the world and its people,” Bahá’u’lláh’s prophetic pen has proclaimed, “hath arrived.” “The hour is approaching,” He specifically affirms, “when the most great convulsion will have appeared.” “The promised day is come, the day when tormenting trials will have surged above your heads, and beneath your feet, saying: ‘Taste ye what your hands have wrought!’”

. “Soon shall the blasts of His chastisement beat upon you, and the dust of hell enshroud you.” And again: “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.” “The day is approaching when its [civilization’s] flame will devour the cities, when the Tongue of Grandeur will proclaim: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Praised!’”

. “The day will soon come,” He, referring to the foolish ones of the earth, has written, “whereon they will cry out for help and receive no answer.” “The day is approaching,” He moreover has prophesied, “when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.”

 

[fathercome]

I understand what you are saying, fathercome.

The question this prompts, then, is this: would you then invite the Reverend Fred Phelps to come to your home and teach his viewpoint to your children, in the name of unity?

It seems to me like you are using an extreme case of Phelps to drive home your point that the relativity of truth taught by Baha’u’llah is wrong, that because differences in human understanding should not be a cause of disunity, that a Baha’i should embrace him. You seem to imply that this idea breaks down in the case you present… (correct me if I am wrong).

So please let me ask you a similar question. Does Jesus not say this:

Matthew 5: 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on ** the evil and the good**, and sends rain on ** the righteous and the unrighteous**. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48*** Be perfect***, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Nick44]

I understand what you are saying, fathercome.

The question this prompts, then, is this: would you then invite the Reverend Fred Phelps to come to your home and teach his viewpoint to your children, in the name of unity?

NO.

While Baha’u’llah teaches that Unity is very important, He also counsels wisdom and moderation in all things. We can agree that Phelps and his ‘following’ have some serious issues.

 

[arthra]

Thanks for your questions Libral… I’m unsure if anyone has responded to you as yet but I’ll see if I can … I’ll respond in italics.

LibralAteoJesus wrote

(1) How can you believe in all religions, not every religion have similar beliefs or morality?

Baha’is believe there is one religion of God that has appeared at various times and in assorted cultural contexts… So we believe all the major historical religions have a Divine Source… whether they may appear alike on the surface and whether they have retained their spiritual roots may be a question.

(2) Jesus isn’t like Mohamed, Buddha wasn’t like Abraham or Moses, if I invent a theistic religion some day, would I be called a messenger of God?

In our view the Messengers of God have all had a similar goal to bring humanity closer to God and to enable humanity to advance socially and meet crises and so on… The role of the Manifestation is similar from revelation to revelation. They are each unique in Their way but They are also similar…You may be familiar with the remark made by Jesus:

"*For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?*"

• John 5:46-47

(3) Is It a theistic and a non theistic religion at the same time?

Unsure which religion you are referring to… there are aspects of our faith where God is personal and close to us through His Manifestation(s) and there are aspects where the essence of God is unknowable

(4) You believe in God, what do you mean by God?
It isn’t obvious like in theistic religions, it isn’t a dogmatic religion with certain rules, is it a spiritual philosophy like Buddhism, sufism, deism?

*I would say there are both spiritual aspects as well as some ordinances in our Faith… Most dispensations you will find a mixture of spiritual truth with some ordinances… We believe in God and what we have learned is from revealed religion… Baha’is are monotheistic…One God.

“Verily Thou art God; there is none other God but Thee! From everlasting Thou wast sanctified from the mention of Thy servants, and exalted above the description of Thy creatures.”

~ Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 3)*

(5) Religions look more like two categories:
Spiritual ones and dogmatic ones, was the creation of Bahai religion a rise over dogmatic Islam?

*I think we see religions as both spiritual and having central beliefs… Baha’i Faith in our view is a fulfillment of the previous dispensation(s) including Islam… We accept Muhammad as a Manifestation of God and the Qur’an as a Holy Book but we also do not follow the ordinances of Islam…many of which have been abrogated by Baha’u’llah. *

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I don’t understand. Truth is paramount to Bahais? Or unity?

Because, as I have shown above, sometimes truth and unity are divergent and cannot be reconciled.

In the case of Bahais, when truth and unity are disparate, which are you supposed to choose: truth or unity?

Let he who knows The Truth cast that stone.
I only have as much truth as can fit in my small vessel. I know my little truth is not everything

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

This is just my opinion but it seems there is a lack of understanding of their own religion on the part of bahai. For instance is Jesus an eternal spirit? Or a created creature? Bahai have given both answers to me on such an important issue.

Bahais believe that Jesus had two natures, the divine and the human.

 

[tonyfish58]

Let he who knows The Truth cast that stone.
I only have as much truth as can fit in my small vessel. I know my little truth is not everything

I have to tell you my vessel has lots of dry rot and has lots of leaks as well

I constantly have to send out Mayday’s.

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Hello thanks for the questions - Arthra has responded above, I would like to add a couple of comments if I may

How can you believe in all religions, not every religion have similar beliefs or morality?

The best place to start is with the founders of the Religion. What did they teach us and did they live by what they taught? When you look into the core beliefs, then one will find how close they really are. What changes is usually the laws applicable for the age they were revealed in. It is man that usually makes them exclusive, they all had the potential to gather all mankind under their banner.

Jesus isn’t like Mohamed, Buddha wasn’t like Abraham or Moses, if I invent a theistic religion some day, would I be called a messenger of God?

All the Prophets were given specific Tasks to Achieve. This makes them appear to differ when in reality they are One. No one can invent this Station, it is Given by God.

You believe in God, what do you mean by God?
It isn’t obvious like in theistic religions, it isn’t a dogmatic religion with certain rules, is it a spiritual philosophy like Buddhism, sufism, deism?

God - The Creator of all we know and who we are. Our purpose is to Know Him and Love Him. The only way we can do this is through His Messengers, they are the perfect reflection of Gods Purpose. By accepting the Messengers we accept God, by rejecting a Messenger, we reject God.

Religions look more like two categories:
Spiritual ones and dogmatic ones, was the creation of Bahai religion a rise over dogmatic Islam?

I think all Religion is Spiritual in the beginning and the purpose to Know and Love God is not overcome by Dogma. As time moves on we humans tend to add Dogma to make it work how we would like it too. This is why Religion is renewed, our use of Free will has still got a long way to go. It is something to guard against

I hope that different look at the questions is helpful

Regards Tony

 

[fathercome]

Dear Nick,

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t claim to be perfect either, in spite of what I wrote that causes agitation in the soul, causes the Fire to be kindled within the veins - and inspires the setting Aflame of all the worlds. It requires perfection to truly love thine enemy as Jesus Himself says, and as Bahau’llah instructs. The Unity that Baha’u’llah speaks of is the realization of that Unity promised in all religions when the lion will lay with the lamb metaphorically speaking. My vessel or cup, too, is small, and it has cracks and may leak ! But we should strive and struggle to achieve it in this Day which is the Most Great of all Days. The mechanisms and institutions and principles are now available, through the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, for this to be achieved. Human beings, too, have evolved and matured to such a level that we’ve graduated from the state of childhood and adolescence, and are now in the state of adulthood. This Day is verily the Lord of all Days.

The questioner asks:

** ‘Hath the Hour come?’ ** [The Hour of the End of Times, the Hour of Divine Judgment, the Hour of the Appearance of God descending upon the Clouds, The Hour of Resurrection, etc.]

Baha’u’llah responded:

‘Nay, more; it hath passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the **Inevitable **is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. The Plain is disclosed, and mankind is sore **vexed **and fearful. **Earthquakes **have broken loose, and the tribes have lamented, for fear of God, the Lord of Strength, the All-Compelling.’ Say: ‘The stunning trumpet-blast hath been loudly raised, and the Day is God’s, the One, the Unconstrained.’

 

[PRmerger]

Let he who knows The Truth cast that stone.
I only have as much truth as can fit in my small vessel. I know my little truth is not everything

Amen!

However, that does not address the question, Sen. Are Bahais of the opinion that truth is paramount, at the expense of unity? Or is unity important, at the expense of truth?

Of course, sometimes truth and unity are not exclusive.

But sometimes it is.

To wit: dialogue with the Rev. Fred Phelps.

What is the Bahai paradigm regarding what this man proclaims vis a vis truth and unity?

 

[PRmerger]

It seems to me like you are using an extreme case of Phelps to drive home your point that the relativity of truth taught by Baha’u’llah is wrong, that because differences in human understanding should not be a cause of disunity, that a Baha’i should embrace him. You seem to imply that this idea breaks down in the case you present… (correct me if I am wrong).

You are correctly articulating my position.

So please let me ask you a similar question. Does Jesus not say this:

Matthew 5: 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on ** the evil and the good**, and sends rain on ** the righteous and the unrighteous**. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48*** Be perfect***, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Amen! Yes, these are indeed the words of Jesus.

Not sure why you think this is relevant here? What point are you trying to make by showing us that Jesus said to love our enemies?

 

[fathercome]

You are correctly articulating my position.

Amen! Yes, these are indeed the words of Jesus.

Not sure why you think this is relevant here? What point are you trying to make by showing us that Jesus said to love our enemies?

Dear PRmerger,

Are you asking me not to love Phelps?

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PRmerger,

Are you asking me not to love Phelps?

No. I demand that you love Phelps.

So could you answer my question, fathercome? Would you allow the Rev. Phelps to come to your home and preach to your children? That would be a sign of unity with him, would it not?

 

[fathercome]

No. I demand that you love Phelps.

So could you answer my question, fathercome? Would you allow the Rev. Phelps to come to your home and preach to your children? That would be a sign of unity with him, would it not?

Yes it would. Do you realize in Iran the Mullahs and religious institutions of their brand of Islam are in charge of the children’s education there? Do you not realize that the Iranian children are subject to the influence of these teachers every day? Baha’i children are harassed, bullied, punished, singled-out, by their teachers and principals in their schools? Do Baha’i parents in Iran prevent their children from attending school where they hear that Baha’u’llah was the Supreme Manifestation of Satan, nay Satan Himself, the Enemy of Islam and Chief-Spy of the West and of Israel, the taking of whose blood is a virtue and religious right? Associating with a Baha’i and befriending a Baha’i is considered a Sin in Islam.

In fact, Baha’i children are today, in Iran, subject to teachers far greater and stronger than Phelps. Iranian Phelps are supported by the police, the military, and the Supreme Leader Khamenei. And yet Baha’i are obedient to their government peaceful citizen of their nation, strive for the better of their economy and society.