Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

Hi, thanks for the explanation.

Based on this explanation, I would say that the “Father” that Baha’u’llah claims to be doesn’t quite fit into this theology using the word “Father”.

To explain His claim in Trinitarian theology as you explained above, I would need to change my own terminology as well. Not being fluent in the Trinity, please consider this a first attempt:

I would say that in a Trinitarian sense, the claim of Baha’u’llah is that for the first time in history, He is the embodiment of the Trinity in one Person. In other words, in the time of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Son and Father are three separate Persons. Baha’u’llah claims that in this Day, these three are no longer three separate persons but one Person, that the Person of God Himself (He who is beyond the Three persons of Trinity) has appeared. He claims that in this Day, He has appeared who created the Holy Spirit itself. That He has appeared who Jesus had longed to see. I don’t think (correct me if I am wrong) that in Trinitarian view, the Son longed to see the Father, perhaps in Trinitarian view Jesus had longed to see the Unseen God. (In Trinitarian view, when you say “Unseen God”, do you mean Father or do you mean the God-substance-of-Son-Father-Holy-Spirit? If you answer that the Unseen God is the Father not the God-Substance, then I would need to delete this whole paragraph and start over I think.)

 

[SteveVH]

I would say that in a Trinitarian sense, the claim of Baha’u’llah is that for the first time in history, He is the embodiment of the Trinity in one Person. In other words, in the time of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Son and Father are three separate Persons.

The Persons of the Trinity are never separate. This is very important when speaking f the Trinity. They are distinct in their relationships but where the Father is, there also is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son.

Baha’u’llah claims that in this Day, these three are no longer three separate persons but one Person, that the Person of God Himself (He who is beyond the Three persons of Trinity) has appeared.

Then Baha’u’llah had no understanding of the Trinity. How can there be one who is beyond God himself; Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

He claims that in this Day, He has appeared who created the Holy Spirit itself.

Wow.

That He has appeared who Jesus had longed to see. I don’t think (correct me if I am wrong) that in Trinitarian view, the Son longed to see the Father, perhaps in Trinitarian view Jesus had longed to see the Unseen God. (In Trinitarian view, when you say “Unseen God”, do you mean Father or do you mean the God-substance-of-Son-Father-Holy-Spirit? If you answer that the Unseen God is the Father not the God-Substance, then I would need to delete this whole paragraph and start over I think.)

Either I have not been clear in my explanation or you have not understood what I have been saying. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is no other God. There is not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and some other unseen God. There is only Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
God is invisible. He became visible when he assumed human nature, but in his divinity he is invisible, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit. God is pure divine spirit.

I was not aware that Jesus longed to see anyone. Where do you arrive at that premise?

 

[PRmerger]

Do you mean how can Baha’is profess to be united with all religions if clearly the religions make separate and different claims and hold varied and opposed beliefs?

No. What I mean is to say that I have refuted your profession that unity is supreme.

It appears that you are, like all rational people, assenting to the fact that truth is supreme.

You would not allow a vile teaching, such as that proposed by the Rev. Fred Phelps, to be professed as true, even if this could promote unity.

That’s because you understand that truth is more important than unity.

Just sayin’…

 

[PRmerger]

I must have Catholic tendencies

Anyone who entertains reason and logic has “Catholic tendencies”, fathercome.

Baha’u’llah taught relativism and moderation and flexibility on many topics, even our perceptions of Him. He instructed us to speak with wisdom and caution and moderation and kindness. To allow differences of opinion and thought.

But not any different opinions and thoughts. Just the opinions and thoughts that he found true.

So not really relative. More absolute, yes?

 

[daler]

Anyone who entertains reason and logic has “Catholic tendencies”, fathercome.

But not any different opinions and thoughts. Just the opinions and thoughts that he found true.

So not really relative. More absolute, yes?

. “Religious truth is not absolute but relative: and that “Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process”

. “The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh … is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society…”
. (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. v)

 

[daler]

No. What I mean is to say that I have refuted your profession that unity is supreme.

It appears that you are, like all rational people, assenting to the fact that truth is supreme.

You would not allow a vile teaching, such as that proposed by the Rev. Fred Phelps, to be professed as true, even if this could promote unity.

That’s because you understand that truth is more important than unity.

Just sayin’…

PR
. I would not allow Typhoid Mary into the home of my children. Why? Because of the need to protect them from such a severe illness.

. From what I read of Phelps, he thrives on creating pain and emotional hurt, even at funerals, for the benefit of his own warped ego and sense of self-importance. To me, this is a spiritual illness.

. I would talk with him myself and allow him to vent his hate at me, but not my children.

. Were I a doctor and could help Typhoid Mary, I would assist her, but not expose my children to the disease which she carries.

 

[arthra]

Anyone who entertains reason and logic has “Catholic tendencies”, fathercome.

But not any different opinions and thoughts. Just the opinions and thoughts that he found true.

So not really relative. More absolute, yes?

There are two principles in our Faith that clearly allow for independent investigation of truth and consultation…

First independent investigation of truth:

Furthermore, know ye that God has created in man the power of reason, whereby man is enabled to investigate reality. God has not intended man to imitate blindly his fathers and ancestors. He has endowed him with mind, or the faculty of reasoning, by the exercise of which he is to investigate and discover the truth, and that which he finds real and true he must accept. He must not be an imitator or blind follower of any soul. He must not rely implicitly upon the opinion of any man without investigation; nay, each soul must seek intelligently and independently, arriving at a real conclusion and bound only by that reality. The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 291)

Second consultation:

The purpose is to emphasize the statement that consultation must have for its object the investigation of truth. He who expresses an opinion should not voice it as correct and right but set it forth as a contribution to the consensus of opinion; for **the light of reality becomes apparent when two opinions coincide. A spark is produced when flint and steel come together. Man should weigh his opinions with the utmost serenity, calmness and composure. **

Before expressing his own views he should carefully consider the views already advanced by others. If he finds that a previously expressed opinion is more true and worthy, he should accept it immediately and not willfully hold to an opinion of his own. By this excellent method he endeavors to arrive at unity and truth.

Opposition and division are deplorable. It is better then to have the opinion of a wise, sagacious man; otherwise, contradiction and altercation, in which varied and divergent views are presented, will make it necessary for a judicial body to render decision upon the question. Even a majority opinion or consensus may be incorrect. A thousand people may hold to one view and be mistaken, whereas one sagacious person may be right. Therefore,** true consultation is spiritual conference in the attitude and atmosphere of love. **Members must love each other in the spirit of fellowship in order that good results may be forthcoming. Love and fellowship are the foundation.

("The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by 'Abdu’l-Bahá during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912, 2nd ed (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1982), pp. 72-73)
(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 99)

 

[daler]

Yes, some of this is part of the truth that the Catholic Church teaches.
I think that God in His goodness and love has allowed nearly all religions to claim that one of their aspects is love.

The church teaches that she has the fullness of all truth and am glad that ya continue on your journey to find the one love and one truth even though You like many may inherit part of the Truth.

I hope that y’all find the One God Who Is Love.

God bless

I appreciate your kind thoughts, aragonjohn

. " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…"

. We are all as plants in need of the sunlight. Some may stretch out in this direction or that, striving to receive the light in which they are in need in various ways, through different rites and rituals, but for the same purpose.

. When we receive enough of this sunlight, we grow and produce fruits, which we share with all. No matter what garden we grow in…

God bless you, brother

 

[Servant19]

Christ not only claimed to be God, but he proved it through his miracles, most especially the resurrection. No one ever rose from the dead of his own power. Only Christ. Ever aware that there are false prophets who would lead us away from the true God, we now know, because of the resurrection, who we should follow and to whom we should listen. We then must live according to what Jesus taught; loving God with all of our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. That is how it would work from a practical perspective.

So, as you point out Steve here, the resurrection of Jesus gives people validity to “live according to what Jesus taught; loving God with all of our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourselves…”

To love, to be kind, to be forbearing, generous, truthful, honest, caring, compassionate, determined, reverent, peaceful, just, prayerful. In fact just click on this, and tell me if there is anything on this list that Jesus “did not” ask of us to “do”: virtuesproject.com/virtuesdef.html

If there is anything in that list that is not “Jesus-like” then please tell me.

If the resurrection of Christ asks of us to BE as HE was, and manifest the attributes and qualities in that list, then there must be incredible value in being like Him, and having those qualities. For sure, by His grace, we are enabled to reflect these virtues/qualities, but belief in the resurrection of Christ is not an "absolute necessity" for one to be “Christ-like”

Does that make sense?

Baha’is place incredible stress on the "incredible value" that showing forth such virtues has. This is what Christ was talking about when He said

---

“Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mark 3:35)***

When the focus is on the*** “incredible value” *** then this in itself instantly unites millenia of feuding Christians and Muslims.

fathercome has already asked, when is this global division of religions going to end?

Baha’u’llah has come, cut through all the forum arguing and face to face brawling, and given His hand of Divine Providence to assist with this process. Do the "incredible value" stuff (plus a bit more, and I’ll get to this in a minute) and you will see the Face of your Lord, Mighty, Powerful and Self-Subsisting. The Face will be recognized as “one Face” by Muslims, Christians and Jews alike, for the fruits are from the same Tree, an incredibly valuable tree.

So what’s the “bit more” that I was talking about above??

What Baha’u’llah has brought is sustainability with His breezes of Divine confirmation. What I mean by this is that Baha’is are not interested in reading the Writings, thinking wow, and just becoming a really loving, caring, honest and truthful etc etc person.

No…

For what is the point of being the most just person that ever existed, when you live in a society that is the epitomy of “injustice”
So, Baha’u’llah has brought along a “system of co-ordination” if you like, to ensure that we “educate” mankind that these virtues of "incredible value" not only benefit themselves, but also benefit the community and its institutions.
The point is that it will gather together a wider and wider circle of adherents manifesting these virtues.

What does truthfullness look like? “Truthfullness is being honest in your words and actions. You don’t tel lies even to defend yourself. Don’t listen to gossip or prejudice. See the truth for yourself. Don’t try to be more than you are to impress others. Be yourself, your true self”

Now, when you attend a Baha’i Childrens Class attended by Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, atheists etc etc the above is a sample of what you learn. You learn HOW to show forth these virtues of “incredible value”
Children are told to go home, having practiced in the childrens class role playing, crafts etc that fortify their understanding of what is required, and then practice this virtue throughout the week and share with the class next week, their LEARNINGS while striving for this virtue.

The benefits to the community are blindingly obvious. I have no doubt that we will see a massive improvement to all communities where these processes take place within 3-4 generations. Its sustainable, and encourages a wider and wider collaboration of adherents to the process.
It makes you into a better Christian, it makes you into a better Muslim, and it unites the community and the human race. Baha’u’llahs vision is accomplished…

This is of course very simplified. Complexities abound and to think that this monumental endeavour is going to happen overnight is “superstitious thinking”

ITS A PROCESS, but it is forging ahead very well indeed, and its seeing outstanding results after maybe 20 years of consistent effort and stauncheness to the cause. The example of this process was in the Frontiers of Learning Video which I linked a while
back.

Now, if you notice, not once did I mention feeding the poor, or helping the sick and elderly.

A Baha’i does not see honour in going to feed the poor, or sick and elderly. A Baha’i sees honour in empowering a hundred people to feed the poor, sick and elderly, who would probably have never done so were they to be left to their own lives

 

[Servant19]

Why the Jewish perspective? Why not the Christian perspective?

The Jews expected the Kingdom of God on earth with the coming of the Messiah
Christianity gave them the Kingdom of God within the hearts of all its adherents.

Baha’u’llah has come to bring a union between heaven and earth. What is in the hearts of the Christians will become manifest on earth. He is the Uniter of all Religions into One Fold, and will herald the Age which all adherents from religions of the Adamic Cycle have been praying for since the dawn of time.

 

[Servant19]

This is nothing but Gnosticism. “You can’t see because you are not one of the enlightened ones”. It rears its head in various forms but always boils down to this.

Actually Steve, there are several instances when the Jesus and the Apostle Paul talks very directly about the Jews lacking insight and they are blinded.
I read an interesting article recently on this very concept

wordofhisgrace.org/jewsjesusqa.htm

 

[fathercome]

Either I have not been clear in my explanation or you have not understood what I have been saying. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is no other God. There is not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and some other unseen God. There is only Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
God is invisible. He became visible when he assumed human nature, but in his divinity he is invisible, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit. God is pure divine spirit.

I was not aware that Jesus longed to see anyone. Where do you arrive at that premise?

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your explanations about the Trinity. Please let me repeat again, I am not proselytizing to you, I am simply trying to explain in my own way (and I am imperfect), the Baha’i ideas as they RELATE TO the Trinity as you have explained it. I am NOT fluent in Trinity, so you helping me is much appreciated!

You say there is no other God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And there is no other Unseen God. So are you saying that the Unseen God is both Holy Spirit and Father? And what is the God-Substance you referred to that is One thing in Three forms? Isn’t this God-Substance the One God you are referring to? Please again, I am not fluent in Trinity. How is having three Gods not polygamy if there is no such thing as a God-Substance who is Unseen?

---

Now to my second point - the Baha’i writings say that Jesus longed for and prayed to Him. You say that you are not aware of Jesus longing for and praying to anyone else. So then what is the relationship between father and son? Did Father create Son (or did Father birth Son) or not? And I know we are getting into the territory of body vs. spirit, but that’s quite okay with me. Are you saying that Father took a part of Himself and put it in body of Jesus, which is the birthing process, and this body of Jesus rose up to Heaven (not sky Heaven but the other Heaven), and that this Body is the Son who is with the Father? Is the Body of the Father the same or separate from the Body of Jesus who is now sitting in Heaven??

This way I can try to explain the Baha’i belief in YOUR terminology.

 

[fathercome]

Anyone who entertains reason and logic has “Catholic tendencies”, fathercome.

But not any different opinions and thoughts. Just the opinions and thoughts that he found true.

So not really relative. More absolute, yes?

Dear PRmerger,

Please don’t misunderstand my posts here, I am not proselytizing. For communication’s sake, let’s admit that I am illogical and the Catholic way is exclusively reasonable and logical.

But just so you understand what I am saying (so that you may correct me correctly).

I am not saying that unity is supreme. Baha’u’llah, who i am saying is supreme, teaches that unity should be supreme. Truth will come out eventually anyway. Unless one doesn’t have faith that Truth is Most Victorious, but then, if Truth is weaker than Unity, then how is that Truth? Perhaps you are confusing unity with weakness. I have encountered people who think that excessive love is a sign of weakness. Others even think that the persecution of Jesus and Baha’u’llah and the Bab was a sign of their weakness not their strength.

 

[PRmerger]

I am not saying that unity is supreme. Baha’u’llah, who i am saying is supreme, teaches that unity should be supreme.

So if Bahaullah professes that unity should be supreme, then he would allow the Rev Phelps to come to his home and preach to his children the message of hate, so that there may be unity?

 

[PRmerger]

. “Religious truth is not absolute but relative: and that “Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process”

This appears to be an absolute truth that is being proclaimed. Yes?

 

[PRmerger]

PR
. I would not allow Typhoid Mary into the home of my children. Why? Because of the need to protect them from such a severe illness.

. From what I read of Phelps, he thrives on creating pain and emotional hurt, even at funerals, for the benefit of his own warped ego and sense of self-importance. To me, this is a spiritual illness.

. I would talk with him myself and allow him to vent his hate at me, but not my children.

. Were I a doctor and could help Typhoid Mary, I would assist her, but not expose my children to the disease which she carries.

Indeed.

And that is because you value truth at the expense of unity.

Although it appears, then, that you are contradicting the teachings of Bahaullah, who seems to be saying that unity is supreme, at the expense of truth.

 

[PRmerger]

There are two principles in our Faith that clearly allow for independent investigation of truth and consultation…

Independent investigation of truth and consultation is very Catholic!

That is because we both value truth.

Unity that comes at the expense of truth is an illusory unity. Although Bahaullah seems to be advocating this illusory unity? Yes?

 

[fathercome]

Indeed.

And that is because you value truth at the expense of unity.

Although it appears, then, that you are contradicting the teachings of Bahaullah, who seems to be saying that unity is supreme, at the expense of truth.

I see your point. Yes, Baha’u’llah enjoins unity in all cases among peoples, religions, nations, sexes, and so on. But when it comes to those who claim to be (and follow) the legitimate leader of the Baha’i community, when they are not legitimately so, are supposed to be shunned by the Baha’is, because that undermines unity itself.

I think this is somewhat related to the concept that relativity of truth is an absolute statement, but if you think about it, then the statement that “truth is relative” must also be relative!!! This is a break in the logic because it is the Absolute who declares this.

 

[fathercome]

Independent investigation of truth and consultation is very Catholic!

Unity that comes at the expense of truth is an illusory unity. Although Bahaullah seems to be advocating this illusory unity? Yes?

I like Catholic for its investigation of Truth and consultation!

I would say Bahaullah’s unity is not illusory because:

• He claims to have sent down the competing and contradictory religions in the first place. So they are essentially united anyway in spite of their apparent contradictions (sounds like Trinity, LOL).
• We are showing respect to other religions who will eventually come to accept Baha’u’llah as their Promised One anyway in the near future, including Catholics and Orthodox

 

[PRmerger]

This is a break in the logic because it is the Absolute who declares this.

There can never be a break in logic in what the Absolute declares.

That is, frankly, absurd.